Korean Air intercepted by German Fighters

[Maisk Rotum]

A 744 cargo flight from Tel Aviv to Brussels was intercepted by fighter aircraft as it entered German airspace on the 7th February after it failed to respond to radio calls for an hour and 40 minutes. It crossed through four countries failing to respond to any radio calls. As it entered German airspace it was intercepted by military aircraft to ascertain it identity and dilemma. At some time thereafter it become 'operations normal' and landed normally.

I bet it was anything but operations normal for the crew after they saw the fighters.

Faces redder than kimchee??!!

[captplaystation]

1hr40. . . . phew, that is what I call a "power-nap" :rolleyes:

[GlueBall]

Secondary emphasis conceivably may focus on actual duty time and accumulated, multidirectional jet lag. :ooh:

[Boeing Pilot]

1h40min.....hahahahaha.....hahahahaha

[merlinxx]

Kolean again:=, keep up the good airmanship chaps:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[The Big Easy]

Not the first or last! PIA and VS come to mind!

[FCS Explorer]

i wonder how the fighter guys got the sleepy heads to wake up !? :8
or maybe they just woke up by themselves...?

and what would happen if u tried to "enter" into U.S. airspace like that?
:eek:

[CargoOne]

Korean and jet fighters... :suspect:

[potkettleblack]

A TA or RA off the fighter jets would surely wake them up.

[Guttn]

I wonder how this aircraft got through 4 airspaces of 4 countries before being intercepted:D. Somebody was sleepying on duty, and it probably wasn`t just aircrew:zzz::E

[Rainboe]

Densely packed countries in Europe- you could do four in the time it takes to eat breakfast! And Liechtenstein thrown in free. Just be glad the 'Russian' solution wasn't applied again- losing 3 to shoot down would stasrt seeming careless!

[Teddy Robinson]

oh I bet the guard police were having fun .... the 121.5 tapes would be velly interesting :D

[golfyankeesierra]

I remember that eicas (or whatever it is called) had an alert for that. Been a while since I flew the -400 but I thought there is a visual + aural alert if there is no buttonpushing (FMC or VHF) in a specified time. Anyone?

[CargoOne]

golfyankeesierra

B707 had all neccessary instruments and navigation equipment to operate Paris to Anchorage, but as we all know it doesn't help if it is Korean Air aircraft :ugh:

[Thaihawk]

This must have come as a shock to the Luftwaffe to have launch jets on a Saturday.

Presumably JG-74 at Neuburg with their shiny new Typhoons,or EF2000 as the German Air Force call them were called upon to do the honours.

[Mariner]

GYS, it's called the Crew Alertness Monitor. Generates an EICAS advisory msg if you haven't touched any switches in a certain amount of time. I believe it is 20 mins. If you don't do anything after the EICAS msg, you get an aural warning to wake you up. First a beeper, then a siren for a wake up call.

So they can't have been alseep for all that time. Something else (not?) going on there.

[EMIT]

Guys,

Cut the crap about sleeping and such! Button touch monitors and such do not protect against missing calls by ATC over the radio.

The guys can well have been awake and busy, but have missed radio calls, that's all. Perhaps they have accidentally turned down a radio volume knob.
Could they have realized sooner that the radio was awfully quiet? I bet yes, but perhaps the flight was during a quiet period anyway - don't cargo's often fly opposite the busy time of pax operations?

Launching ready to fly airforce jets is standard practice to clarify such a situation, nothing that any airforce type will get nervous about. Man, how often doesn't it happen that some Cessna pilot does not properly file a flt plan and has to be intercepted for identification?

In short, don't make an elephant out of a mosquito.

[airfoilmod]

I missed several calls with a knob down on Com2. It happens.

[misd-agin]

Anyone can miss a radio call or two.

And then there's the 1+40 hr version. :uhoh:

[golfyankeesierra]

Mariner, thanks; guess they weren't asleep.
EMIT, agree, but still 1hr40 min is a long long time.
Surprises me the jets weren't scrambled earlier; Helios comes to mind.

[AshPilot]

I heard this on 121.50. The interceptors asked the crew to acknowledge by waving their hands out of the left cockpit window or rocking the wings - took a few calls by the interceptors to get a reply from the crew.

Damn! - it certainly woke us up and we were awake!!

[pattern_is_full]

Great circle route LLBG-EBBR has a 100nm stretch that goes through airspace of Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia and Austria in short order. About 12 minutes at cruise in a 744?

"If it's 13:17, this must be Slovenia."

[Flight Detent]

Yeah...I agree with the comments regarding possible volume levels all turned down etc, etc.

But...are they not required to actually transmit something, like, to initiate a call!

I jest here, to much cynicism I guess!

[ron83]

A TA or RA off the fighter jets would surely wake them up.Probably not,as usually transpoders are switched off approaching civil.

[Captain Sherm]

Mr Rotum (thread starter)....

What is your source?

Just interested.

And I would hazard a guess that if it were possible to compare whatever is the truth of what happened and why with all other similar incidents.......then the Koreans would barely be middle ranking. In our little world here in OZ I know personally (no it wasn't me!) of 2 incidents of over an hour where an a/c was out of comms. VH registered and flwon by Australians.

[MTBUR]

good info, Mariner! Just out of interest, what do you press thereafter to cancel the warning?

[grizzled]

To EMIT and others who think that an absence of comms for 1+40 (or even 0+40) is no big deal (as in "let's not make an elephant out of a mosquito") I have news for you. From the ATC point of view (especially in busy, crowded airspace) it's a big deal.

I would suggest you visit such an ACC; sit, watch and listen for a bit. Then ponder what would be going on in terms of re-routing and re-clearing of altitudes to accomodate the a/c that is "not participating". ATC is much more of a dynamic endeavor than many realise (even high-time pilots); so the actions that must be taken significantly increase the workload, the inconvenience to other traffic, and indeed the stress level as -- despite ICAO and JAR -- one is never quite sure what the aircraft may do, and so allowance must be made for that.

Been there (at the ATC position) too many times.

Grizz

[vanHorck]

Anyone in Germany knowing of an investigation into this so we can get the facts confirmed (1h40 !!!)??

[Flyingphil]

A rumour with a Pilot @ my firm states they were off for 14 Minutes and NOT1 Hour 40 Minutes or 1 Hour 14 Minutes!

This fitts well to the fact (ist it confirmed) that they crossed 4 countries southwest of Germany @ cruise-speed which would take approx. 20 Minutes.

I really doubt that they have been off for 1:40 Hrs without military interference until reaching Germany.

[Mariner]

MTBUR;

Reset the alarm with one of the Master WARNING/CAUTION Reset Switches on the glareshield.
Using any button or switch gets the time for the alertness monitor reset to zero.

Good feature for a long haul aircraft. I assume Hairbrush has a similar alarmclock.

But I doubt if this was the real problem here, could be just a blown up story. Hard to believe you can fly across Europe for that long without getting someone on the line.

[EDTY]

Hi dear pilots,
may be this little data from my SBS-1 box can help:

a/c HL7602, B744 (freighter)
first occurenece: "06.02.2009 17:03:34"
last occurence: "06.02.2009 17:39:57"
call "KAL577" -if an 8 is added it would fit for KAL8577
first latitude"48.72482"
last latitude"50.55852"
first longitude"12.92182"
last longitude "6.55572"
first speed "448.8"
last speed "433.5"
first altitude "38000" feet
last altitude "29925" feet

A speed of 448 ktas over ground is around 830km/h..., 14min "off time" would make 194km. If the a/c would have heading northwest (TLV-BRU), so it might have crossed West Hugary, Nothern Slowenia, Austria and at least the estern part of Bavaria:E in that time. I have no record for an MIL a/c fitting to this altitude at that time.

Cheers Michael

[EMIT]

Grizz,

I am aware of the amount of uncertainty and workload that a non-responding crew is causing to ATC.

What I mainly attacked is the general assumption that the pilots must have been asleep. Certainly, like I stated, they could have sooner developed some suspicion that ATC was awfully quiet for a long time, but then, if you enter Serbian airspace from Bulgaria, at night you usually get a direct right to the Serbian Hungarian border, a long way to go without any other call necessary. Couple that with inadvertant turning down of the volume controls of the loudspeaker, weel, you can fill in the rest. Close to 30 minutes would be the stretch through Serbia, without any call necessary.

[criss]

Out of interest - can you reduce volume in comm radio down to 0, or not? At my ATC unit, even if you turn the knob max left, it's still not 0, you will here transmissions - and there's also a light above the knob that turns on if there's an incomming tx in such cases, to alert you.

[misd-agin]

criss - volume can be reduced to zero, otherwise you'd have up to 5 radios broadcasting in the cockpit.

Routinuely monitor 121.5 but that gets turned down/off if it's interferring with monitoring the primary ATC radio.

Often the 'too quiet' to 'too loud' adjustment is very, very tiny. And from 'too quiet' to 'off' is also very small. It's not uncommon to see the other guy answering and you realize your volume has shifted to the point of being 'off'.

[criss]

Thanks. BTW - we have 5-6 radios up at the same time in the tower cab:ok:

[dwshimoda]

Don't know about the B747, but on the B757 not only can you turn the vol down to 0, you can deselect all three radios, and can also detune them - there are quite a few "gotcha's" to catch you out - hence when it's quite I always give a little click on the mic every 5 mins or so to check the speakers are still working, and if I've really not heard anything for a while, then request a radio check.

I managed to lose contact with London once due to me being inexperienced, and having a muppet moment - I now do everything I can to try not to repeat that heart stopping moment when I realised what I'd done - but it doesn't guarantee it wont happen again sadly!

DW.

[BEagle]

The old adage about needing a pilot and a dog in automated aircraft springs to mind. Pilot to talk on wireless, monitor things and feed dog; dog to bite pilot if he tries to disconnect anything automatic.

Or falls asleep.

One teeny problem with that idea on a Korean aircraft though......

[11Fan]

BEagle :ok:


Air Canine Rule Number 1. Stay clear of the Galley.

[Phlap1]

You might have 6 radio's in your atc cab, but you can't misstune
them to thousands of different frequencies at once.

[criss]

Sure you can, and you can turn any frequency off too :)

[grizzled]

Point Taken
Thanks for that.

Grizz

[SRS]

I wonder if there is any practicle reminder, or procedure to keep pilots situationally aware of the ATC envirnoment? Although this case was extreme another more likely scenerio could be over the middle of the Pacific at night.:confused:

[ray cosmic]

SRS, one of the ingredients is situational and positional awareness. There'll be reporting points at which you can expect a frequency change. If you don't get the change in a radar environment, a short call to ATC might catch it if it was forgotten to hand you over to another sector.

[mr Q]

Is there an established international protocol for interception by military (non hostile)aircraft??

[zuz]

A few years back an aircraft in our company was intercepted by two French military aircraft due to missed ATC radio calls.Apparently the accepted procedure is for the intercepting aircraft to switch off their transponders, but this did not happen and with one fighter positioned above and one below the company aircraft they received alternating TCAS climb and TCAS descend RA's. Not good!!

[LACCATCO]

In the UK I believe they will only intercept if there is no RT contact for a duration AND there is specific intelligence about either the airline, the origin or the destination. Saying that I have seen 2 intercepted and the 25 mile exclusion zone we have to set up is not much fun in busy airspace...:}

[Graybeard]

Only one has to fall asleep in some Asian airliners to cause such a problem: the captain. The F/O might be afraid to wake him.

GB

[nossagarden]

No words, what a comment

[skytrax]

the same thing happened to a Vietnam Airways(line) plane. If I remember well they were asleep.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

'scuse my ignorance. Do these modern high tech airliners no longer carry SELCAL with its attendant attention grabbing chime ? Does not an incoming ACARS message provoke an audible alert especially if not answered ?
Thanks for your time and trouble folks.
Be lucky
David

[HarryMann]

Often the 'too quiet' to 'too loud' adjustment is very, very tiny. And from 'too quiet' to 'off' is also very small. It's not uncommon to see the other guy answering and you realize your volume has shifted to the point of being 'off'

Crap carbon pots, mismatched impedance or just plain cheap... dreadful, sounds like a pound shop tranny radio!

[Rickford]

As an ATCO I have had this happen to me several times (5-6). Of the 2 major events one involved a stuck transmit frequency where most of the western world were entertained to an amusing dialogue about the state of American football for approx 20 minutes before one of the co-respondances noted "Haven't heard much from ATC recently....."

Second occasion was transit from Lands End to Dover. Not too much of a problem for the first half but from SAM to DVR a lot of excitement...
Inadvertantly turned the volume down...

We would have scrambled the UK interceptor force (English Electric Lightnings) but "They'd make an awful lot of noise over London and besides there would be no point until the ac gets to Eastbourne"

A comment made to me in jest by the duty Master controller (we were aquaintances) but the Lightening was rather short ranged and to have scrambled it earlier would have involved also launching a tanker and then all the excitment of AAR in the Dover area.

[robin747]

Well, most seem to skimp on the cockpit retrofit, so likely KQ didn't have that 30 min 'alert'! Moreover, looks like the Kapitan was dozing and the field was open for the p2 - probably a 'nue-bee! Cheers!

[tom744]

robin747,
KAL aircraft have the "pilot response" alarm but it won't come up when you touch one of the monitored switches like MCP controls, CDU's and so on.
Korean pilots often use the offside tuning function on the audio selector panels.
Well, we all know that the offside tuning light should be exinguished and that also became procedure recently....for sure they screwed up the frequencies this way, including guard.
But flying over central Europe for 1:40 without even wondering about the silence?:confused:
That's a different story....

[Barney Rock]

Having flown with Korean pilots many suns ago and now " safely " retired, I have so far refrained from posting anything close to critisizing KAL. Now, with this incident and many more that have been much more serious ( but did not make it to the public fora ), I guess it's time for my 2 cents worth.

Flying in KAL was indeed very challenging and I aged tremendously during my 5 years there. You gotta watch your F/O like a hawk lest the screw ups ( missing calls, misinterpreting clearances and so many more to enumerate here without getting my b/p up the stratosphere ) get you into deep kaka. You cannot really rest in a augment crew or 3 man crew because you never know when when you gonna get a high altitude/low speed buffet because the geniuses in the pointy end have no clue about high altitude performance, autopilot characteristics and general weather avoidance and flight management. Many a times it's like a solo operations into ORD, JFK, LHR and LAX. Even some expat captains were suspect; I operated a 3 man crew flight into Europe with an expat captain ( how he got a level 6 English in Korean was beyond me ) who missed or could'nt understand most of the ATC transmisson!! Mind you, there are now many conmen fortune hunters in KAL, you may just have to live with that or live to regret that you have to be there.

You got to be very brave or foolhardy to really enjoy life in KAL. Having said that, KAL has one of the best if not the best commuting contracts around. The money ( if it's tax free ) was good, the travel benefits and dead headings were excellent, free food coupons ( sic! ) etc

[Gusz]

KAL does have some excellent pilots but most of the locals ( and some foreign riff raffs ) are just hilly billies piloting million dollar aircraft like chimps on tricycles...........
I have one word...... SCARY!!!

[fdr]

Your opinion is frankly impudent. Suggest before you make any further derogatory and defamatory comments, you get into the ring and gain some experience, then be somewhat more diplomatic about your language.

There are a lot of excellent Koreans, and there is a level of standardization to their operation that is impressive. The Koreans operate day in and day out in fairly severe weather, and without the comfort of being native speakers. It isn't like the rest of the world cuts them any slack in that regard.

Before you slang off on them, perhaps it is worth recalling some of our own, western aviation failings, sometimes that is not so pleasant to confront. :mad:

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Bad Karma that, torturing and eating dogs.

KAL truly are maligned, sometimes aren't they?

Read here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents) and think again every time it all seems too much here in Europe.

[captplaystation]

Yep, fairly grim reading indeed Leo.:eek:
In all fairness they do seem to have got their act together after the Skyteam audits as part of the condition for joining.
I have several colleagues working there, the general feeling seems to be that standards are much much better, but that there remains a latent " do it by the book/imagination not required " mentality, combined with perhaps less than ideal CRM from the ex Air-Force Korean Capts.
There are also lots of horror stories of expats being failed on conversion courses (particularly on 777 ) mainly it seems for failing to do as bid by rote.
At the end of the day you can't change the mentality & cultural mindset of a nation in 10 years, at least the statistics would tend to support the theory that they are going in the right direction, or maybe they are just having a lucky spell after a previously black period. :rolleyes:

[fourgolds]

......or perhaps the advent of modern equipment / protections like EGPWS / much improved automation etc is " protecting" them a lot more than previously.

[Muzza]

An interesting thread for sure. Of note is the lack of criticism of ATC here. Like all others I probably miss the odd call, as I would imagine most other airline pilots do, from time to time. Tired...very busy frequency, very poor ATC English mixed with...French, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Greek, Russian, Chinese, Korean, Portugese,...on and on, etc, etc.....all contribute.

But I would bet I do not miss as many calls as the number of times ATC fails to inform me of a frequency change when at or approaching an FIR boundary. It is a frequent occurence, worldwide.

Yes my awarness should overcome the problem, and I have charts to refer to, where the next frequency can be obtained, or 121.5 if neccesary, when it isnt picked up. But lets get real here, Korean is not the first airline that this has happened to, nor will it be the last. I listened to various people trying to raise a Nigel on 121.5 not so long ago, for quite a long period of time, after an oceanic crossing. The KAL incident should never of happened, it is poor, to say the least, and there is nothing to be gained by defending them, but........

I think its time to get real, stopping bagging KAL,and the many others who arent perfect, and look to ways to address the problem of some bloody pitiful ATC around the world, both first and third, which contributes massively to this kind of incident.

[Phantom Driver]

I'll drink to that.

[54fighting]

That 1:40 minutes of silence adds up to $500,000 U.S., out of the Korean
Air coffers. German government doesn't scramble intercept aircraft for free. Well done gents.

[Jofm5]

As per article on Aviation Herald today it was 1hr 40 mins.(The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?article=4157cad6&opt=0))

The airline reported, that the crew had missed the frequency change as the airplane entered German airspace, but continued to track their filed route. 2 pilots have been suspended.

[simyoke]

Below is what I wrote for another forum.

The report has it that both of them were having their meals without wearing their headsets; the boom mic gets in the way if (s)he does not take the headset off while eating. One thing that makes this explanation fishy is the fact that they usually leave the (Loud) speaker on and turn up the volume while munching so as to listen to the directions from the ATC.
Anyhow, for the whole 100 minute-incommunicado, one thought the other was in contact with the controller.
They don't seem to talk much in the flightdeck. Another case of bad CRM.

It must have been quite interesting when the TCAS alert and resolution advisories went off right before the fighters popped up close enough to see the faces of the freighter crew.

[Kuranda Express]

I think that Europe needs to have a central " Eurozone " control with less frequency changes. The current 833.3 Khz VHF frequencies in use are prone to mistuning and " miscopying " by pilots whose first language is not English; add in the various German, French, Italian and Eastern European accents...we have a recipe for disaster. Do like what we have in Central America........cenamer control, etc. It isn't so difficult in a radar environment to have a South/ North/East/West/Central Euro control with less frequency changes. Only snag, some job losses and fewer ATCO bosses to build their own little fiefdoms:=

[stickyb]

Question from non-pilot.

In an event such as this (as opposed to an actual crash) would there be an inquiry and subsequent public report?

[threemiles]

I think that Europe needs to have a central " Eurozone " control with less frequency changes. The current 833.3 Khz VHF frequencies in use are prone to mistuning and " miscopying " by pilots whose first language is not English; add in the various German, French, Italian and Eastern European accents...we have a recipe for disaster. Do like what we have in Central America........cenamer control, etc. It isn't so difficult in a radar environment to have a South/ North/East/West/Central Euro control with less frequency changes. Only snag, some job losses and fewer ATCO bosses to build their own little fiefdoms

The number of ATC sectors and frequency changes in Europe has to do with the pure volume of traffic. Even ignoring state borders (there IS an Eurocontrol) there would not be less frequency changes. Traffic levels in Central America cannot be compared with those in Europe. In Central Europe areas even upper air space is split vertically split into up to 4 sectors to cope with demand (see FFM or Zürich). The observation that 8.33 MHz freqs can be mistuned is right as about 20% (own, non-representative count) of all frequency change instructions crerate a reconfirmation request by the pilot. Has nothing to do with the naitve language and accents, but 6 numbers is much to remember. But even with a mistuned freq one can return to the previous freq if only diligent tuning procedures are used.

[Willit Run]

I spend probably 90 percent of my flying in the international arena. Through the years transitioning from round type steam powered gauges to the modern EFIS cockpits, I have noticed an alarming trend toward complacency. Maps?, "we don't need no stinking maps". With all that information right infront of us, rarely do we need to look at a map if all is going well. Well, not all goes well as often as we'd like. Now, I'm not perfect, but I do try to have all the maps available and have the pertinent one open for that sector. Looking ahead at the entry and exit points for the next country is a big help in anticipating a frequency change. I really don't like being caught with my pants down and knowing when to expect something just makes the whole job easier. Kinda like the simulator!

With so many people chatting away on 121.5, having that turned down is not a good idea, but you have to sometimes with all that excess jabbering going on.:ugh:

As long as we have humans in the system, we are going to have these problems. Fortuneatly, we also have the brain power to correct our mistakes if we recognize one. A little discipline goes a long way.

[Lon More]

Kuranda Express As stated there is a Eurocontrol which provides ATC in the Upper Air Space (FL245+) from Maastricht UACC. Parts of the airspace are amongst the busiest and most complicated in Europe. Although extending over four sovereign states national boundaries are frequently ignored in the interest of traffic flows.

http://www.eurocontrol.int/muac/gallery/content/public/images/sector_chartb.jpg

[400drvr]

You bet there will be. But first thing to happen was the Captain was forced to resign and they want the FO on duty to do the same.

[simyoke]

Yes, you're right. The F/O was offered a "voluntary resignation." and the capt. tendered his resignation before the company told him to do so.
I guess the company is unwilling to look more closely in to the matter, find out what the underlying cause of the problem might have been and corral a remedy.

[changer]

The (The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?article=4157cad6&opt=0)) article says 4 crew. Assuming 2 of them were in the bunks at the time, but did KAL punish them too?

[Flap62]

Muzza,

We all miss freq changes occasionally and if the calls on 121.5 were in the uk FIR the "nigels" might not have heard it because BA744s do not monitor 121.5 at the moment due to a problem with it triggering the auto DF response from D&D.

[boofhead]

You guys must have the airline mis-identified. It could not be Korean. See below:

Korea's Aviation Safety Ranked First in World

When it comes to air travel, Korean airliners may be the safest way to fly.

The UN's International Civil Aviation Organization says Korea ranked first for aviation safety so far with a 98.89 percent performance rating by international standards. The organization's rating was introduced in 1995 in the wake of a rising number of accidents in the early 90s.

The UN organization still has about 70 more countries to evaluate before the ranking is complete.

Digital Chosunilbo (English Edition) : Daily News in English About Korea (http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200903/200903020027.html)

[captplaystation]

Tongue firmly in cheek :hmm: ;)

[Muzza]

Canadian airspace, but not really my point.

[ComJam]

SimYoke

TCAS should not have "warned off" at all, Interceptor SOP is to switch the Mode 3 Transponder to standby prior to intercepting.