Government Funding Flying Training

[stansted_dan]

I've run a quick search about funding for flying training etc and am aware of GAPAN scholarships etc, but can't quite find what I'm after.

I currently have 25 hours of my PPL, have been flying a lesson a week since last September and eventually want to go Commercial, my life long ambition. I decided that I didn't want to take a £60K loan out at 20 years old and so I've got myself a good job as an ops controller and am flying on my wages. It's got to the point now though where I'm getting increasingly frustrated at only being able to afford an hour or so a week, especially when I'm on to nav and a typical landaway involves atleast 2 hours flying. It feels like I'm going to be training forever, what if I want to move out of home and settle down in life?! I only fear that this will get worse when I start CPL/IR training and it starts costing £200-300 per hour. I'm therefore looking at taking out a couple of 'smaller' loans, especially during the Summer months, so that I can get a good few hours under my belt.

I'm just becoming angry that there seems to be no government funding or help at all with regards to flying training. Does anyone know if there is any help out there, either the equivalent of a 'student loan' or something? I've looked in to Career Development Loans, which is similar to a student loan in that interest = Bank of England base rate, but if I remember rightly flying training wasn't on the list of things you could use it for. It just seems ridiculous that some of my friends can get a £30K student loan to go to university, get stupidly drunk and do a pointless degree in 'American Studies' or 'Football Management' yet the government wont even lend me £5K to help towards my hour building, and a career that I've dreamed of since I was 6 years old.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Regards, Dan.

[BossEyed]

I'm just becoming angry that there seems to be no government funding or help at all with regards to flying training.

"Angry", eh? Well, I'm pretty hacked off that there's no government funding or help at all with regards to my secret nymphomania analysis project. A perectly valid thing for the taxpayer to throw me cash for, all would agree I'm sure. What's Gordon going to do about that, eh? Eh?:rolleyes:

Anyway, there is Govt funding available for flying training - here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/pilot.cfm), for example.

<Mutters away off-stage, smelling of wee and complaining about the something-for nothing society and Yoof of today...>

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Yep, I had to do a double take at that particular sentence! There is a certain youthful optimism to the original post. If you have a desire to fly best of luck to you (and I mean that sincerely) but you're going to have to pay for it yourself, unless your flying ambitions are military. The good old days of airline cadetships are a distant memory and generally any 'sponsorship' where a company appears to be funding your training involves them taking it back out of your wages at some point.

It would be wonderful if there was Govt sponsorship for professional flying training but there isn't and with my taxpayer hat on, there's no good reason why there should be. Pop over to the 'Interviews, jobs and sponsorship' forum for a dose of harsh reality. There is no need for anyone to fund pilots to get into the industry: there are more pilots than jobs, a fact that the industry has recognized and is capitalizing on. Companies can charge £70k for an fATPL, £30k for a Type Rating, £30k for a few hundred hours on the line (ie pay to work) and there is still a queue of people waiting to sign up. Some very competent, experienced pilots that I know are finding this out the hard way right now.

I wouldn't wish to put a downer on your flying dreams but the situation is so distinctly unrosy at the moment that the thought of you being 'angry' about a lack of sponsorship is frankly laughable. At today's rates, if you want to become an airline pilot, the financial break even point is easily over a decade away, (assuming you get a job at all) and yet there is no shortage of candidates prepared to pay their money and roll the dice.

If your ambitions are civvy, look at GAPAN, the Air League etc. Scrimp and save for some steady flying once a week and look at a career development loan for professional training. By the time you qualify the industry might be on the up. Good luck.

[stansted_dan]

Thanks for taking time to reply, but please don't be so patronising. Do you think I'm some idiot sat with my head in the sand ignoring the fact that there's a recession and everything that comes with it? I work for an airline, I've just watched pilots and colleagues made redundant! I've spent the last 14 years desperately trying to plan my career, watching the industry, being part of the industry, and trying to work out the best way to follow my dream (you'll see that I decided against taking out £60K, that'd be pretty stupid right now when chances of getting a job are so slim).

All I was simply asking is if anyone knows of any government help towards aspiring pilots, or if something like a Career Development Loan (CDL) can be used? What about people (like me) who's parents don't own the house, and who's combined annual income is less than £30K? Even if I wanted to take a £60K loan, chances are I wouldn't be able to anyway because we don't have a house to secure it with.

How is it fair for example that an aspiring scientist/doctor/economist from a working class background, can do well in school and get given a £30K student loan to go to university, whilst an aspiring pilot only stands half a chance of doing what they want in life if they happen to have a rich family to give them £60K?

I know the harsh reality, I know that airline sponsorships don't exist any more, I know that there are queues of pilots right now waiting for a job. Maybe I am an idiot for still wanting to be a commercial pilot, but then again there's nothing else I've wanted to do with my life. I'm doing my absolute best right now to earn a decent wage in airline Ops and spending almost all of that on my training. It's just getting very tedious only being able to afford an hour a week, at this rate I'm looking at literally 6 years if not longer to complete the training. I just wondered if there are any obvious ways to speed this up a bit, that's all.

P.S. For a while I was going to use the RAF as my way in to an airline career eventually. I joined the Air Cadets for 5 years simply to help towards this route, but unfortauntely my eye sight does not meet the RAF standards.

[MikeSamuel]

Instead of moaning about how easy it is to go to Uni, why don't you apply to go to Uni instead.

There's absolutely no point doing ATPL training at the moment, and at least a degree might enable you to work in something a bit more rewarding than Ops.

Uni also gives you time to assess life with a wider view on things. I used to think flying commercially was all I ever wanted to do, and thought that nothing would ever change that. Now I'm slowly doing the modular route, with a really good degree, working in a job with good prospects and pay, and I'll end up flying commercially one day.

There's more to life than a blue/green wallet from the CAA!

[Fg Off Max Stout]

I certainly wasn't trying to be patronising, I just try to pitch my replies at the level I believe is appropriate to the original question. You suggested Govt sponsorship and I set you straight ;-)

I know how tough it is but I don't see a massive discrepancy or injustice between a medical/law/engineering student and an aspiring professional pilot. University students may get a student loan and flying students may be able to get a career development loan. In fact many FTOs have finance agreements with banks. Sure, the figures are bigger in flying but then it costs more to burn avgas for a few hundred hours than it does to look at a blackboard for four years. There certainly are many kids spending daddy's money at FTOs but there are also many who work overtime or arrange financing that they, not daddy, are going to repay.

You are reluctant to take the plunge with a loan now but the fact is that you will have to do it sooner or later (unless you earn BIG money in the meantime). In fact, as I'm sure the FTO's would tell you, now might be a good time, with low interest rates and the prospect of an improving market by the time you qualify. FTO prices won't go down if you wait.

There are no longer student grants for university students and neither are there government funds or airline cadetships for student pilots. The only realistic prospect of speeding things up is if you sign up to an integrated course now with a loan to cover the costs. Otherwise, fly as often as you can afford and save up for modular courses.

You don't really have any other realistic options - there are no shortcuts or pots of money. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but believe it or not, my post are trying to be constructive and I feel for you. Like I said, good luck and follow your dream but it's not going to be easy.

[stansted_dan]

MikeSamuel, out of interest what degree did you do? I thought long and hard about going to uni and actually started the application process to go and do Economics, but several pilots (and almost everyone I bumped in to at the flying school where I worked weekends) said not to bother getting yourself into more debt through uni when you don't need a degree to be a pilot.

I think to say that Ops has no prospects is a bit harsh. I currently earn more than my girlfriend will be earning as a teacher when she finishes uni. Also, in the 12 months or so before the recession hit 4 people from Ops made it in to the RHS at our airline, all of them low houred but picked because of their commitment to the airline and the fact that they already knew how the other half of the airline worked.

[jxk]

Now back in the days when a packet of Woodbines cost 2P, a pint of beer was a 1P and I was a young apprentice at Vickers Armstrong there was a Government incentive to encourage people to become pilots. The Government contributed 90% towards the costs and of course so many people wanted to take up this option that names had to be put into hat. Unfortunately, I wasn't lucky and I had to wait for another 25 years before I could afford to get that all so elusive PPL.

[stansted_dan]

Fg, thanks for the input. It would indeed be a good time to take a loan considering the low interest rates, but is 12 months away on an integrated course going to clear the backlog of pilots by the time I come out flashing my license? Probably not. I think the right time to be coming out with a fATPL will be in about 3 years.....does that sound like a fairly good guess? I didn't expect there to be some magical pot of money, I would have just been interested to hear of other student's ways of paying for their training besides borrowing £60K from Daddy.

Aside from going to uni and putting a hold on the career plans for a few years, maybe it might be a good idea to start saving for a small-ish loan this summer. Whilst the interest rates are low, take out enough to cover atleast my hour building and perhaps the CPL flying. Just to slightly shorten the 6 years or so that I'm looking at if I only fly on my salary.

[chrisbl]

Get real - the chances of getting a low interest rate loan for flying training when the industry is awash with out of work experienced pilots and wannabes are low to nil unless there is some security.

[A and C]

Don't expect any type of help from this goverment they are a total bunch of stary eyed dreamers who give anyone who turns up in the UK a chance at a Licence and a job when the rest of Europe delys implimentation of EASA regulations making it imposable from any practical point of veiw to get a job in most European states using by raft of local regulation to delay employment.

I can only think that from the window of a Westminster office they think that the rest of Europe operates a level playing field because that is what the regulations say, the fact is that all the other states have some form of protectionisum

Add to this the fact that most European states will refund the VAT on pilot trainning and some (like France) have state sponserd trainning you will see that the UK pilot job market is a loaded in favour of any one but UK citizens.

I say this from the point of view of some one who has worked short term contracts in Europe and seen the system from the inside, I was always replaced by a local pilot as soon as one became avalable.

Oh ! I edit this post to give some support to the guys "oop North" who have gone on strike because of the overseas workers who are taking UK jobs, may be the goverment will wake up if a little indistrial unrest is shoved in there faces.

[MikeSamuel]

I did Aerospace Engineering (MEng) but it really doesn't matter what you do, as long as it's a good solid degree, not a pointless basket weaving style course.

I would recommend avoiding the courses involving "Pilot Studies" or "Airport Management" etc. Stick to the core subjects, as it doesn't pigeon hole you in to certain sectors when it comes to graduate jobs.

Economics sounds OK, but if you've got the A Levels to go and do Maths instead, then I'd say that would be a student loan well spent.

[Whirlygig]

If you read the professional training forum, this question gets asked about once a week. And every week, the same answers are written.

You already know the only available options; there are no others. Ways of funding? Parents, loans, saving,; there are no secret schemes other than the few sponsorship schemes which you already know about.

Cheers

Whirls

[Airbus Girl]

A long while back I had a government sponsored Career Development Loan for flight training. If I recall correctly, you could get £8k interest free for 2 years I think it was. Also, there was a period of time when flying training was tax-free, if you filled in the correct form. Unfortunately this was mis-used and ended up being stopped. It was meant to be for professional training and you did a vocational qualification alongside it. What happened in reality is that all the flight schools told all PPL students to get it, in order to make the PPL cheaper (and the school got the same money) and to fill in the forms saying they were planning on going on to do commercial training, which of course they never did. As such, not one single person completed the vocational qualification and the government smelt a rat, and stopped the subsidy.

But I agree with you, it stinks that someone can go and do a Media Studies degree and then go on and be an unemployed bum and owe the government loads in student loans, but someone who wishes to undertake a professional course, with high likelihood of paying it back once they have a job, cannot even get help with living allowances or food whilst undertaking a course.

Lawyers, Drs etc. get help, but pilots don't. It is a shame. I also get a little bit fed up with the occasional precocious person I meet who tells me just how young they are to be a pilot, and expect me to congratulate them on being so young and having an ATPL with a type rating. Of course, when I ask, it turns out their parents have paid for everything on a plate for them. Well, yes I could have done it when I was younger too, if I had the money! Unfortunately we don't all have rich parents/ uncles!! I learnt to fly when young, through sheer hard work and graft and saving every penny I could. It took me until my late 20s before I had earnt/ borrowed enough to get me through to getting my ATPL and subsequent job.

So yes, I agree with you - perhaps you would like to campaign for some more help from the government?

[MartinCh]

better to be in the US or Canada, where one can get some federal/state funding(=student loan) of flight training. Well...
Or New Zealand. From what I know, their CPL training loans with few colleges/Unis is back to business after a halt. Although it ain't easy for rotary boys even with fresh CPL (H)...

Airbus Girl, I mentioned it in another thread, but CDL is to be upped to 10k Sterling and to be made more flexible. Dunno exact dates, but it could help with FI rating or CPL/ATPL theory. This is quite recent news I caught elsewhere on the net.

Anyway, CDL was never 'cheap' as when I looked into it, the banks actually charge half more interest than 'good deal loans', but due to govt sponsored interest repayment during the training, the overall rate was reasonable. The longer training and shorter repayment, the better. Err. Also, still subject to credit check and bank's individual decision.

[blue up]

Join the LAA and get a Turbulent, FRED, Taylor Mono or similar. Cheap hours building for not much more than the cost of the fuel (@ 15L per hour of Mogas)

Alternatively, Go to Uni and get an engineers licence, fix aircraft, perform test flights and discover the wonders of disconecting the Hobbs meter (Ahem!)

http://www.synetic.co.uk/t31m/

Fred plane homepage (http://www.geocities.com/fredplane/click.htm)

Welcome to the Light Aircraft Association (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/)

[znww5]

Leeds University does a couple of aviation-related degree courses, one of which includes training up to PPL standard as part of the degree. Having already worked in the industry and started a PPL would certainly give you an edge at the application stage. The way things are panning out at the moment, might it be worth considering getting better qualified during the current 'minor economic blip' and end up with both a PPL and a usable degree?

I have every sympathy for people trying to make a start on their chosen career these days, there's a huge amount of talent out there being wasted - thanks to the greed of a bunch of vastly-overpaid bankers.

I hope things work out for you - good luck :ok:

[S-Works]

Interestingly I read this morning that Pilots are in the top 10 of professional people signing on for benefits at the moment. Something like a 177% rise.

[Genghis the Engineer]

How is it fair for example that an aspiring scientist/doctor/economist from a working class background, can do well in school and get given a £30K student loan to go to university, whilst an aspiring pilot only stands half a chance of doing what they want in life if they happen to have a rich family to give them £60K?

Pretty straightforward really.

The nation/world really needs more scientists and doctors - and right at the moment could definitely do with some serious improvement in the quality of economists.

Also, a good working level professional scientist makes perhaps £40k, and that maybe 20 years into their career. So, given the need, there's demonstrable need to fund their training.

Pilots on the other hand - there's no shortage, and after that big loan (even if it is on Mum and Dad's house), the eventual salaries are by most standards, excellent and will allow the debts to be comfortably repaid.


The abberation here is arguably physicians - they get substantial state subsidies to train, yet also make enormous amounts of money eventually. I suppose the state rationalisation for this is that despite the financial rewards of working as a physician, there are very few people who are both capable and prepared to take on the enormous demands of the job.

The ladies basket weaving degrees like politics or sociology - well we do still need (apparently, I can't say I'm totally convinced) a few graduates in the field. But on the other hand, they are very little subsidised by the state, since they don't cost much to deliver, and most of the student loans will get paid back. Subjects such as Engineering or Medicine on the other hand, cost a lot to teach (around £8-10k/year/student last I looked) - but that is paid straight to the universities and the rest of the world doesn't see more than the student loan and tuition top-up fees.



So, if you fancy doing the night shift, and the day shift, and the next night shift with barely a break, on A&E; or doing a badly paid but deeply worthwhile job pushing back the boundaries of modern science; or teaching in an inner city comprehensive - then of-course the state will go a long way to funding your training. (Or if you fancy flying air support in Afghanistan, because the RAF will train you as a pilot to be an RAF pilot, not to use it as a stepping stone to the airlines.)

On the other hand, for a fascinating and well paid, oversubscribed job, with loads of time off, great benefits, and the ability to change employer at little notice - sorry, you are pretty much finding the money yourself, as well as accepting that pilots are an expensive commodity and may get laid off at the next financial downturn.

G

[Barnaby the Bear]

How is it fair for example that an aspiring scientist/doctor/economist from a working class background, can do well in school and get given a £30K student loan to go to university, whilst an aspiring pilot only stands half a chance of doing what they want in life if they happen to have a rich family to give them £60K?

Sorry to re-quote so soon. But :ugh:
I would be the first as a taxpayer to complain if pilots were getting grants. There is an acute supply and demand issue. As you pointed out, its a student 'loan' Doctors/scientists etc. get, and as previously pointed out, without the assistance less people would fill these 'essential' roles.
If you want to fly professionally then the best of luck. I know a few of pilots that have made the investment. Some fly for a small salary and just clear loan payments. Some are instructors, and at the moment have to compete with redundant flight crew that you yourself are familiar with for the currently decreasing work share.
Sorry if i come across patronising. I wish you luck in your chosen career.

[FREDAcheck]

Without taking sides about whether people ought to get grants from an individual "fairness" point of view, the excess of supply vs. demand for pilots suggests the position is not likely to get better.

I do sympathise with the point about uni students getting loans. When I was a lad, never mind a loan, I got a grant to go to university. And some of my friends got paid by BA to learn to fly at Hamble. You may think I was lucky, but I was so jealous of them. And if you want an ATPL now you've got to pay for it. A couple of friends of mine have got their fATPLs in the last year or two after working for years to save up enough to pay for it (no rich parents), but both are still looking for jobs. I know, life isn't fair.

Well, the best of luck to anyone aiming on a career on the flight deck, but you'd better have a Plan B.

[youngskywalker]

I would delay the ATPL training. Save up for a deposit on a small city centre appartment, bargains are to be had if you can get the mortgage. Stay there for 5 years or so, then when the market picks up with housing and the airlines (which it will, it always does in the end) sell the gaff and hopefully make enough off of the equity, buy yourself into Oxford and have no debt. And you will still only be about 30 years old. Job's a good'un as they say ! :ok:

P.S Failing that, at least you will have a useful city centre pad and get loads of sha*@ing. Worked for me anyway! :)

[Donalk]

A couple of friends of mine have got their fATPLs in the last year or two after working for years to save up enough to pay for it (no rich parents)


Rather than getting angry and frustrated at the (perceived or otherwise) lack of fairness you should take Freda's advice. Work your butt off to make enough money to achieve your dream and if that takes several years then so be it. This is a personal choice for you and in this respect the only person who will make it happen is also you.

Life is never fair but strangely enough those people who refuse to be frustrated by the lack of fairness inevitably make their own destiny and achieve their goals. Go for it, you will find that a positive attitude will stand you in good stead and will certainly get you a better reception on this forum.