L29 Overrun at North Shore NZ

[blah blah blah]

Damaged plane removed after runway crash - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10554637)

[Launchpad McQuack]

A large number of fire fighters were at the scene, and had applied foam as a precaution, Mr Phillips said.

I'm curious...does the foam cause any damage to the aircraft and/or engine at all? Is it essential for smother the aircraft "as a precaution" or are the boys getting a little carried away, when the aircraft came to a suitable halt from which the pilot could easily walk away and no leaking fluids etc?

I haven't seen a pic of the aircraft but it sounds like the damage was minimal, happy to be corrected if that was not the case...

LP

[CI300]

there was no foam used. .

[Got the horn]

Wouldn't NE be a bit marginal for an L29? Even on a perfect day?

[6080ft]

I watched that thing do circuits at whangarei on a warm day - looked very bloody marginal there too!

[NZFlyingKiwi]

I've watched it doing circuits at Ardmore a few times - needless to say the initial climb rate seems to leave a little to be desired. The owner has another one, -SSU. Damage doesn't look too bad in the photo although I suppose pictures don't always tell the whole story.

[cribble]

Mattath
Nobody made me Thread Prefect but...

If I wanted to read an unsubstantiated rant
(I heard....... the rumor was...... probably went thru the firewall cause he was .....)

I really would prefer half-decent spelling and grammar:

1. Try to use complete sentences (the first word generally starts with a capital letter; the sentence is often considered best ended with a full stop).
2. Try to use the words that don't make the sentence nonsense e.g don't use "cause" when you mean "because".

Apart from the English your post was pretty much a waste of bandwidth, better off in Jetblast or R&N.

[Q300]

Did you see the original Herald article? Did you see the picture on it?

http://www.pbase.com/garylowndes/image/108741521/original.jpg

:D Only with Aunty Herald - that is not jet powered, it is not Czech made, it is not a military aircraft and it is not all that vintage. (Picture pinched from another forum, but seeing as it's now been changed...)

[Much Ado]

mattathm is having week off:ugh:

[27/09]

mattathm is having week off

Only a week!!!!!!!!

Judging from many of his/her other posts one could be forgiven if the time in the Sin Bin wasn't quite bit longer.

[ZK-NSN]

"Wouldn't NE be a bit marginal for an L29? Even on a perfect day?"

It would seem so.

Talk to the GBA boys about getting a cherokee 6 out of there on a warm day, let alone a low powered jet. would be interesting to see the performance figures.

[sexy time]

That piece of s**t and it's owner will hopefully go somewhere far far away and not put any one elses life at risk......

Brake failure - yeah right........an arrestor hook wouldn't have stopped that thing!

[Q300]

mattathm is having week offOnly a week!!!!!!!!

Judging from many of his/her other posts one could be forgiven if the time in the Sin Bin wasn't quite bit longer.Yes well, from what I saw he was a bit trollish if I ever saw it, and I've only been here 5 minutes :}

Dairy Flat is hardly the longest runway around. If he was told he shouldn't be trying it, he shouldn't have tried it.

[Cypher]

From what I've heard and seen in a past newspaper article (North Shore Times Advertiser) .. the owner is a reasonably new PPL....

[remoak]

Inexperienced rich boys and their toys... the continuing saga...

Slightly off-topic - wasn't the SSS rego worn by a Grumman Cougar? Anyone know what happened to it?

[Corkey McFuz]

Yes that piece of junk is now Registered PAP but as of about a month ago has been grounded due corrosion on the main spar or similar and will never fly in the skys of nz again. Thank god :D

[mattyj]

Yeah..being parted out on trademe last month..

..in defence of Mattathm..from what I've heard from other sources..everything he said about the owner is true.

..give him a break Mods..he has Tourettes in his fingers:}:}

[remoak]

Did my multi Instrument rating in that piece of junk, 20-odd years ago. Horribly underpowered, but it did have a decent flight director and AP, Was pretty spiffy in those days (compared to say a Seneca 1 or an Aztec).

[27/09]

Sorry for further thread drift

that piece of junk is now Registered PAP

will never fly in the skys of nz again. Thank god

Did my multi Instrument rating in that piece of junk, 20-odd years ago

Only flew it once, about 9 years ago. Seemed to me to be an OK aircraft especially as a multi IFR trainer, true not over powered, but certainly wouldn't have called it a heap of junk. Amazing how our perceptions differ.

[Corkey McFuz]

Without intentionally drifting the thread further, it just ain't worth it's own thread, sorry :ok:

It might have been ok 9 years ago but isn't the best machine around now. Always breaking down, parts are hard to come by so out of the air a lot, things not working, things falling off, shabby this, ripped that etc etc need I go on ??

There would be more knobs/leavers/buttons etc in that plane without their handles/knobs whatever that there would be with them on :uhoh:

And to top it all off, it has been replaced by none other than VH-MEP, for those that know that old chariot :ugh: :}

[remoak]

When I flew it, it had recently been refurbished and looked great, inside and out. Great ADI/HSI combo, far better than anything else around at the time, and it was pretty roomy.

Nowadays, you have those plastic things with the diesel engines that need reconditioning after 20 mins... :bored:

[philipnz]

back on topic :}
Fighter jet jockey won't be grounded
By LIZ WILLIS - North Shore Times | Thursday, 05 February 2009

A crash at North Shore Aero Club has temporarily grounded Abbas Shahroodi’s fighter jet.

The brakes failed on his former Romanian Air Force L29 Delfin on Sunday and he "ran out of runway" and crashed into a fence, says Mr Shahroodi.

Mr Shahroodi, a Castor Bay resident, says he wasn’t injured and the damage to the jet’s nose gear is repairable.

He says his training to deal with emergency situations kicked in but admits he felt a "level of discomfort".

Mr Shahroodi says it had been a great day for flying and while something like brake failure was not unexpected it could happen.

Aircraft are one of the safest means of transport, says Mr Shahroodi.

The fact it was a jet involved in the accident meant it attracted a lot of public attention at the Dairy Flat airfield, he says.

Postmans Rd was closed for several hours while emergency services dealt with the accident. About 15 fire appliances attended. The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating the crash.

Mr Shahroodi spoke to the North Shore Times in January about the thrill of fulfilling a dream to fly a fighter jet at 700kmh.

The speed thrill is greater than any sportscar, said the 49-year-old Gamma Computers director who emigrated from Iran 23 years ago.

"It’s like going downhill in a car when you have lost the brakes," said Mr Shahroodi.

"You cannot fly it slowly. It’s the highest level of aviation experience."

Mr Shahroodi owns two L29 Delfins, which gobble up $1600 worth of fuel an hour, because the Romanian Air Force only sold them in pairs.

This year he hopes to buy a Mig 23 or 29 and fly at two-and-a-half times the speed of sound.

Fighter jet jockey won't be grounded - Local News on Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/auckland/4837861a6497.html)

[Konev]

MiG23 or MiG29?

hope he wont try them into north shore, yes they are grass runway capable and whatnot but still need a lot of length, especially the 23.

[NZFlyingKiwi]

I would imagine that if he does manage to import a MiG it would have to be based at Auckland. As much as I would love to see an airworthy MiG here, I feel the combination of a pilot who is from what I understand reasonably inexperienced on jet aircraft with a supersonic jet fighter may not be the best thing ever.

[Cypher]

Hope he has liability insurance!

[mattyj]

Mr Shahroodi..we know its a part 91 operation, but now that you have seen what can happen..perhaps some Accelerate Stop calculations for NE might be a good idea.

[troppo]

One MIG29 on the NZ register would make the RNZAF redundant.he could play boyracers with the RNZAF but would need deep pockets for the fuel bill.
Do you reckon an Iranian would be able to own an airworthy MIG in the USA?

[Peter Fanelli]

So... would this be an "Airline" or an "RPT" issue?

[remoak]

perhaps some Accelerate Stop calculations for NE might be a good idea.

He was landing, wasn't he? In which case, accelerate-stop caclulations mean precisely squat. Maybe what you really mean is a calculation of landing distance required, and a factor for brake failure/spoiler failure/flap failure etc.

On a short strip like Dairy Flat, you really have to wonder why he didn't open the tap and go around - he must have hit the brakes almost immediately after landing so would have been aware of the failure whilst still having lots of speed for the go-around.

But then... inexperience... PPL... more money than sense... etc

[CI300]

He wasnt landing, he did that a few months back. He was practising/trying to get out. Mattyj knows the score.

[philipnz]

L-29.Org - Latest News (http://www.l-29.org/)

Lots of good stuff there in the manuals including little gems like reccommended strip length 3000feet and spool-up time from idle 14 seconds. Suggests you don't idle on final/touchdown :=

[remoak]

He was practising/trying to get out

Practising WHAT exactly? Takeoffs? If that is the case, he has to be the most stupid rich idiot on the planet!

Funny how brakes stop working after repeated accelerate-stop events...

[mattyj]

Insha Allah:ok:

[Steve Zissou]

It seems Mr Allah wasn't willing mattyj. Whatever happened to mattathm and who in fact is he? I heard a rumour he 'was' sending his comments from Paremoremo prison. Seems that has all come to an end now...:ugh:

[ZK-NSN]

Has the aircraft taken off from NE before or what?
Are the owners of the airfeild just going to let him fix his toy and try and again?

"Aircraft are one of the safest means of transport, says Mr Shahroodi." but once he has finished with it, car surfing will have better safety stats.

"The fact it was a jet involved in the accident meant it attracted a lot of public attention at the Dairy Flat airfield, he says." I can see the new welcome sign now. Dairy Flat "NZ home of the jet crash"

Make it easier for everyone buddy, start using your head or update your dental records.

[Stifmeister]

Remoake, clearly you have no jet experience.

Upon landing at nth shore the short strip it is, in a POS backwards jet with the taps closed, once it touches down (which i gaurantee wouldnt be at the start of the strip with mr kjyasdvka at the wheel:\) it would be at about 100kts (guessing) and by the time the exceptionally experienced pilot that he is on his ppl licence:ugh: keep it straight down nth shores 1m wide runway and opened the taps for a touch and go as you put it, and the engine finally spooled up to t/o thrust with his head in the cockpit not over reving or temping the engine because of course it will be a full fadec ecu and watching the asi and keeping it straight as it slowly accelerated uphill............

I mean cmon man, its a no brainer for some.

I mean brakes failed?
Who uses brakes on a takeoff?

Unless of course he realised 1/2 way down the runway it wasnt gonna get airborne, so he aborted and broke the brakes cause he was pushing them thru the firewall to stop the plane.
baahaahhahahahahahahaa
I
D
I
O
T

[remoak]

Yeah I've only been flying jets most days for the past 20 years... :ugh:

Since you clearly know nothing about the subject, let me just say that a turbojet engine is quite capable of spooling up quickly enough to get an aircraft that is already at flying speed, safely back into the air. Even from ground idle. In fact, it is often demonstrated during certification.

Again, if you knew anything at all about the subject, you would know that it is SOP in a non-FADEC aircraft to have a clear idea of where max T/O thrust is on your power lever. We even used to mark it on the quadrant on some jets I flew. Adjusting to an in-limits temp or RPM then becomes a quick glance and an equally quick adjustment. If you know what you are doing, of course.

You don't use brakes on T/O, unless of course your engine just quit - right?

If he really was practising takeoffs, he probably overheated his brakes. Doesn't take much.

Anyway you have made enough of a fool of yourself, now off you go back to your MS flight sim...

[mattyj]

Baaahahaha...I warned you about him stifler!!

"I just got peed on" :}:}

[NZFlyingKiwi]

The CAA accident report out now says that the aircraft left the runway during a "high speed run" - clearly not landing, and suggests not necessarily trying to take off either, although one wonders what exactly the purpose of this run was?

Here's the link, the second one down: http://www.caa.govt.nz/Weekly_Accident_Reports/Accidents_registered_to_02_Feb_09.pdf

[framer]

unexperienced. Shame your instructors at Nellis didn't teach you a little grammerForthly Touch and goes wouldnt use much brakes at all Plenty good England bro.

But on a more technical matterId say it would be 5 minutes at least so the brakes would have a chance of cooling down from the last landing Really shows your level of understanding with regard stopping an aircraft. I think it may be the stupidest statement I've ever heard from a pilot, in fact, I hope you're not a pilot with ideas like that rattling around in your head.
Regards, Framer

[Peter Fanelli]

Wow! This is still in the Airline and RPT forum.

That "moderators" thread elsewhere must really have the mods distracted.

:E

[remoak]

Framer, I think when he says "instructors at Nellis" he means the guy that taught him how to flip burgers at the local McDonalds in Vegas. Nobody that ignorant and incoherent would have got onto the base!

[Stifmeister]

Had I known it was an english class I would have taken the time to correctly format my paragraphs.

I guess I have no hope in passing the NZ english test to upgrade my PPL?

And it was actually Burger King.
:ok:

[c100driver]

There is more to this than meets the eye!

The L29 has a total loss air system for the brakes. Prior to flight you have to pump enough air into the brake system from a dive bottle or similar source. The aircraft cannot recharge the air system any other way as it is not fitted with an air pump.

Rumour has it that an expert in jet operations from CAA advised the pilot how to get data to check if the machine could be flown from Dary Flat.

[remoak]

The L29 has a total loss air system for the brakes

True, but it also has an emergency system, and pressure gauges for both systems. So no real excuse for running out of air.

Rumour has it that an expert in jet operations from CAA advised the pilot how to get data to check if the machine could be flown from Dary Flat

Unnecessary. All the data you need is in the Flight Manual, which (should be) on the aircraft. All you need is the runway data.

FWIW, basic takeoff distance (sea level, etc) is 600m.

[mellotron]

"You guys are all dangeous and foolish, And that makes you ... Dangerous!"

Dangeous?

OK I know what you mean, but there are some good comments and data based on experience, which as student pilot (from your profile) you should take note of.

check out the discussion on: Wings Over Cambridge - Incident at North Shore airfield (http://rnzaf.proboards43.com/index.cgi?board=civil&action=display&thread=8456&page=1)

[craka]

The following link YouTube - L 29 Back Seat Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt6QPYzWGhA) should perhaps be shown to the CAA investigation team. Interesting that he should be a.)low flying (he didn't look like his intention was to land at NS) b.) exceeding 250 knots below 10,000 AMSL

No wonder this guy came to grief.

accident waiting to happen.

Eye witness stated that the aircraft was practising high speed runs and the brakes were operating as the a/c went screaming past him as is a teastement to the rubber sqealing/smoke and black marks on the runway

[Stifmeister]

haahahaha just watched the L29 video taking off from ardmore, was taking off on the centre line not covered on the flying the small jets 101 handbook?
Also just watched his L29 whangrei landing...
YouTube - L 29 Delfin Whangarei 29 Nov 2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ4kz5e5Jxw&feature=related)
landing on the centre line was definately not in that book either.
Remind me not to get that book for my cpl subjects!

[mellotron]

dear Mr Zissou

good clip

I understand the references

I drove past the "accident" site today.

Considering that the L29 entered a public road and continued along it for another 90 metres or so gives little comfort. If there had been passing traffic, or somebody walking their dog or riding a horse in this relatively peaceful rural environment, I am sure that their sense of humour would have been tested.

[Runaway Gun]

Exceeding 250kts? I only saw him doing 400 km/hr.

[craka]

perhaps it was 400 kmph... I am not sure how fast one of these things goes.


Interesting that both of the links have now been removed by the user.

Feeling a little guilty huh?

[Stifmeister]

Oh thats just great then, which means hes watching this thread.
Maybe after everyone in NZ and said their piece he may have just realised that he might need to take him self aside and give himself a talking to.:uhoh:

Oh hey and mods...........
why have you removed some of the posts in this thread.:=
Give a man a badge syndrome huh.

Let the thread take it course would ya!:mad:

[Steve Zissou]

And ... go

[bin b'archin]

Inexperienced PPL in a jet haha what a grand idea! And there's no way the authorities are going to let this monkey import a Mig; He could hold the NZ airforce to ransom with it... if he could only land and takeoff properly.

[tinpis]

Cause of aviation private pilot warbird accident?
Chequebook.

[mattathm]

IM BACK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:ok:

[ZK-NSN]

So when is this dude going to be doing his next "high speed taxi practice" any NE locals got any info.
Imagine the crater he could make with a Mig 21.

[Corkey McFuz]

Jet crash during taxi check

North Shore Times | Thursday, 26 February 2009
The jet pilot involved in an accident at North Shore Airfield had earlier been asked to supply performance information before taking off from the airfield.

Abbas Shahroodi says he wasn’t trying to take off when his L29 Deflin military jet training plane crashed into a fence at the field earlier this month.
Mr Shahroodi says he was doing a high-speed taxi manoeuvre to gather information when his brakes failed.
North Shore Aero Club president Ian Couper says the Civil Aviation Authority became aware through the media about the plane’s presence at the airfield before Christmas.
Mr Couper says the authority requested information to ensure the aircraft could safely take off from the field.
He is satisfied Mr Shahroodi wasn’t trying to take off.
Mr Couper says the jet was the first of its type to land at the airfield but it landed safely with plenty of room to spare on the runway.
The cause of the accident in February has been the subject of extensive online speculation.
But Mr Shahroodi says it was a minor incident that has been blown out of proportion because of the type of aircraft involved.
He says most of the people speculating haven’t flown a jet and don’t know what they’re talking about.
The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating the cause of the accident.



So looks like the feds were on to him about getting it out of there before hand, fair enough too !

[Shredder6]

He says most of the people speculating haven’t flown a jet and don’t know what they’re talking about.

You still have to calculate performance even if you're flying a C172 in and out of a tight strip. Not sure that many of us would do a high speed taxi run to gather information in lieu of P Charts; I certainly wouldn't do this in my 737.

An idiot.

[Steve Zissou]

"My brakes failed officer". Yeah Right.:bored: