QR - why is Qualification for Transfer and Promotion "removed" from OM A? [Archive]

Xaxa

30th Jan 2009, 10:52

Does anyone know the reason why OM A 5.1.2 Qualification for Transfer and Promotion is mostly moved out from OM A to OM D now? (in the newest OM A revision available for download since 22.01.09.)

Maybe I am paranoid, but all the important stuff (LI, TRI, TRE, and command upgrade) is now moved to a manual that is not accessible to all the pilots...

It was probably not just moved, but also changed. Anyone knows how? And from where can we get a pfd copy of OM D?

KRUGERFLAP

30th Jan 2009, 11:10

:}Command Upgrade not Allowed:mad:.If you ask for the manual you can be demoted to Cabin Crew or Terminated.LOL

Get out of this :ugh: man.:yuk:

SHA" TA" RIA law.

Capt Krunch

3rd Feb 2009, 12:13

OK, I'm not trying to play devils advocate here.. But, I must say that getting a command position within 5 years of joining an international airline is still pretty fast compared to many other airlines.

I know it must be really hard to be a F/O here, I sympathize with all of you. but some airlines you would be more than 10 years before being considered for an upgrade.

Poisoned by compromise
Krunch

White Knight

3rd Feb 2009, 15:50

Well Krunch - a lot of guys came here with command time already, and lots of it!!!

Besides - we don't get scored on PPCs anyway now do we?? So I think you can ignore that..

ramiyns

3rd Feb 2009, 17:14

It's a conic problem with Qatar Airways.

As for now Qatar airways is short of co-pilots across the fleets and surplus of Captains,Now how would any one expect the company to maintain the upgrade,that means who ever reach the minimum requirement must go for command, then how dose it end. It will become 2 captains cockpit .The company in very delegate situation ,company can not stop the upgrade,If they do then co-pilots will leave by the tens.
So the only way out of it, though it is not the best way,is to put some hurdles and try to slow down the process and tighten the mesh further.

Recruitment groups are every where now trying to close the gap.

flynhigh

3rd Feb 2009, 22:02

surpluse of Captains....Than why they are interviewing DEC for all fleets.

Xaxa

4th Feb 2009, 08:13

So what does OM D say about promotions and upgrades now? Or is that top secret? Why did they remove it from part A?

loc22550

4th Feb 2009, 11:15

Ramiyns:
Surplus of CPT...!?!!:confused: depends which fleet you are talking about!
On 320 i doubt we have a surplus of CPT,well when i see my roster i don't have that feeling!:hmm:(85..90+ hours/month).

intaomri

4th Feb 2009, 12:36

It's going to be like that on A330 fleet until transfer to 777's begins which is going to be slow, in any case some of us will be on stby , plenty of rest and days - off for some time ( some cpt's are not affected as usual . ):ugh:

brassplate

4th Feb 2009, 15:48

people at ops change command upgrade requirements for one main reason...to reduce the requirements to:

enable friends to get command upgrades, or
make it easier for nationals to get command upgrades.

shneidertrophy

4th Feb 2009, 19:16

Man, this forum is worse than a group of women with too much time on their hands.

Most of you flew somewhere else before, correct? So in which manual back home where the qualification requirements for training staff mentioned? It has to be in OM PART D! Why copy it in OM PART A?

It does not change anything for none of you anyhow. Becoming instructor is all about " dont ask us, we will ask you" ! And rightfully so!
Instructing has nothing to do with seniority (nor is it a given right) and thanks to the many failures lately this has been reckognised!

Command upgrades and fleet transfers are the only things which should be in OM Part A!

Too many captains.....

True on A330, not true on A320. So no generalisation possible!

Upgrades

I agree with what is said above. Stop whinging! 5 years is still a rapid and descent time to get your upgrade in an international carrier!

Previous command time: HHAhahah...make me laugh. If it would have been sufficient they would have hired you as DEC! On top of that you accepted an FO job so stop crying! And from my own experience: I would rather fly with a relatively inexperienced anytime than having to fly with these crybaby " I was a captain before" FOs running around here! GET OVER IT! And stop insisting you deserve a fast track upgrade...there ARE more senior FOS in front of you awaiting their turn!

And all in all, upgrades are indeed continuing . Assesment flight are ongoing on all fleets continously, an interview is planned mid this month and new Captains are being released online every week...

I have seen times here when NOT A SINGLE upgrade was done for over two years so once more...STOP CRYING!

Its time some of you start seeing the reality here:

QR is NOT a fast track to make promotion rapidly! We have over 1000 pilots at the moment, all of which are waiting for something. Pick a number and await your turn!

Usually I am criticising this company heavily, but reagrding this tread I strongly feel you are in the wrong direction!

Just a bunch of spoiled little children!

Anticipating your attack right now....:E

Immigrant

4th Feb 2009, 22:39

shneidertrophy
5++++:D

couldn't have said it better......

Just a bunch of spoiled little children!:*

Guys wake up and look around.......those time are GONE:ooh:

Capt Krunch

5th Feb 2009, 01:03

shneidertrophy:

a bit harsh, but your definitely on the right track. I agree with the general contents of your post. I hope the others will listen up.

no one likes to fly with a crying " I used to be Capt ".. F/O, you accepted the job. as far as I know, no one kidnapped you and forced you into that seat, so Grow up.. in QA as all other airlines, you'll just have to wait your turn.

don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the fact that the airline has moved the goal posts several times and will continue to do so, I also do not agree with many other things here. But, the fact remains.. at the moment there are plenty of upgrading going on. I say plenty in reference to the fact there used to be NONE, it's still not enough these days but it's moving along as a steady pace.

Poisoned by Compromise
Krunch

Ronaldo 330

5th Feb 2009, 02:04

5 y waiting is too long for fastest growing airline in the world its true.
There is good option for F/O who wants fast upgrade : resign and get a job in Wizz Air or Air Asia both give direct left seat if you have time on airbus stay there for 2 y get PIC hours and apply again for QR or Etihad and as a Capt you get villa ,and 50k salary in both airline . It takes 2 y and this 2 y you can take as learning time in EU or in Asia then back to desert for money . Its an option and its possible take it or leave it . I know 8 F/O s which are already packing to do this . Salary in Wizz or Air Asia as Capt is same as what F/O gets now in QR so you will not lose any money only think you will get command and PIC hours . its a win/win situation .

daviddea

5th Feb 2009, 02:41

There are alot of high time pilots on the market right now dont think the 2 short years of PIC are going to cut the mustard.

Xaxa

5th Feb 2009, 03:23

Yes daviddea, a lot of pilots on the market now. But the market probably will go back up again, sooner or later, and those guys that are leaving now will have two years as pic in 2011. If they stay they might have 2 years as pic in qr in 2015 (assuming they joined 2008). :hmm:

Ronaldo 330

5th Feb 2009, 04:41

And who the hall wants to be in QR ? Why ? You stay on fleet 8y you have to do the worse sectors with new pilots and you can get demoted for hard landing what can happen during training. In QR Inst are not selected from the best Captains but from the one who accepted it.
Back to the command :
with new DEC which are just being selected in India and Singapore we can expect slow down in command upgrades. if you ask why answer is simple : if QR just hired 45 DEC and need to train them on SIM and online it will take a lot of Inst time to train DEC while they could train command upgrades (cant do 2 things in same time )

loc22550

5th Feb 2009, 10:23

Scheidertrophy,you are right on this point,but on the other hand i can understand the frustration and the the whinging of some well experienced F/O here..,excpecially when they have been told during their interview that their will be upgraded within ..2..years..in Q.R. We ALL known it's a lie!
Thats one of the reason why some of them are leaving.

Capt Krunch

5th Feb 2009, 10:41

correct loc22550,
the situation is as grim as it was many years ago. and as for all this chatter about getting a grade of 3 ( out of 5 ) on your simulator check.. unfortunately all true. I have known of some isolated cases were the guy in the left seat had made a gross error during his/her simulator check and the instructor gave BOTH candidates (Capt. and F/O) a grade of 3. Not a very fair system here in that regard, but never the less thats what we have.
any F/O who have been lied to as mentioned by others in this thread. let it be known that you can expect 5 years regardless of what you have been told, as long as you don't make any mistakes along the way.. don't be fooled, this IS the way it is here.

Poisoned by compromise
Krunch

Fubaliera

5th Feb 2009, 11:33

The 777 training coordinator said management is looking at getting rid of the grade 3 punishment policy for fleet transfers. It makes alot of sense to do so and takes the pressure of the TRE to not give a 3 when it is earned.
As far as upgrading the only quick fix/miracle is if QR decided to get EMB190 or or started the low cost as quoted by the CEO in Airliner magazine. Qr would need Capt asap and im sure many of the upgrade policys would be revisited.

Capt Krunch

5th Feb 2009, 14:28

and then Fubaliera was awaken from his mid-afternoon slumber only to find out it was all just a DREAM :ugh:

Poisoned by compromise
Krunch

Capt Krunch

5th Feb 2009, 15:54

the story of some regional aircraft to be introduced into the airline is something I have also heard, as well read about in the local tabloid.

to be honest, the days of Bling are behind us now. thrift is back in Vogue.

having said that, I really do not believe that there will be a introduction of a regional fleet anytime soon.

Poisoned by Compromise
Krunch

shneidertrophy

5th Feb 2009, 21:44

You guys might just get what you are wishing for...

QR is looking into introducing some very small aircraft in its fleet in the near future (A318 looks like a behemoth compared to these things) so prepare for an upgrade there!

Correct me if I am wrong, but the requirement to have at least 4 in your checkrides has always been there. OK, now you have to maintain your level one session more...So what, big deal! Everybody gets 4s in this airline...I have been here a looooong time and I have never seen an FO short of his command selection getting a 3 just because his partner screwed up! The instructors (most of them anyway) are not stupid you know!

Wizzair and Air Asia....here we go again....Lets see what happens with both of them in 2009. Air Asia allready issued a profit warning to its shareholders and Wizzair is dying a very slow death at the moment with dwindling pax numbers.
But hey, if you hotshots FOs want to go there to get a small chance of a quick shot to the left seat, by all means...go ahead! Good luck! I hope you will enjoy your 4 days command course! And good luck as well finding a job afterwards with a reputable carrier! They all know how bad the command training is overthere....

If you where disapointed when joining I think this was mainly due to the fact that you people where ill-informed and you believed your own dreams? They promised fast track upgrades, 1 year fleet transfers blablabla...I know this happens and it is dispicable an airline's recruitment team lowers itself to this type of operation but what on earth made you believe that this is true! You knew there where almost 500 FOS in front of you awaiting their upgrades? What made you believe you could just jump over their heads?

Not very smart and certainly incredible naive! :\:ugh:

Capt Krunch

6th Feb 2009, 04:32

shneidertrophy

I have been here a looooong time and I have never seen an FO short of his command selection getting a 3 just because his partner screwed up! The instructors (most of them anyway) are not stupid you know!

I can strongly argue that point. as mentioned before, I too have been here nearing a Decade and have seen and known F/O's who have been given a Grade of 3 over the Capt's performance, thus removing them from any chance of Command for a period of time.

there was once a French ( or Canadian ) F/O here that had already did the command interview successfully and was waiting a training date, this happened to him and was removed from the upgrade training schedule ( approx 4 or 5 years ago) of course he then resigned to disappear in the ibis of aviation.

point is , don't say it never happens when in fact it does. I will say it's not that common and nearly everyone can get a grade of 4 ( even with a poor performance) .. but getting lower than that can and has happened.

Poisoned by compromise
Krunch

loc22550

6th Feb 2009, 06:00

Before even thinking about launching a LCC here in Doha, or bringing some more aircraft..A-318..maybe the first think we need here is...the new(sinking) airport(with 2 runways!) to be completed!Maybe then the company will save some money and fuel..We are probably the only major carrier in the gulf that can afford to put commercial aicraft in a queue at the holding point 34, waiting for the Gulf helicopter, the Fighter to land or let the college aircraft doing their touch and go's!:hmm:

shneidertrophy

6th Feb 2009, 08:57

Krunck,

ok...I admit....it happened all in all maybe 3 or 4 times over that period you claim to be a decade.And by that I mean pilots getting below 4 grades unrightfully so. But thats all.

And how many times did the opposite happen? People receiving 4 or 5s while actually they should have been failed and sent home? Many many times more, I am sure you will agree on that one too!

So all in all I do not think the whole process is unfair, not at all! And so far all the guys I know to be good aviators came through without a scratch and are flying now as skippers. The bad ones, well in most cases they failed. But isnt that the purpose of the whole process? In my opinion too many bad ones slipped through still so if you would ask me, that selection process should even be more strict!

And before you guys start shooting me down, all this off course applies as well ( and even more so) to those masses and masses of DECs we seem to be hiring at the moment!
If only they would put those guys in front of a panel consisting of 5 chief pilots! If only these people would be asked to fly an NDB approach into OOMS while suffering from a dual FCU failure! If only these so called captains would be send to OSDI in bad weather with only VOR 23R operational and that female controller is on the radio refusing to say whisky! Lets have a look than how many would pass!

Maybe with the new recruitment team these things will change. Because it is my opinion that these DECs pose a much bigger danger to our operation as supposed to the FOs struggling to get through their command training!

One positive note: In case you make it through selection, training, line training and line check here at QR you can be bloody sure you have been trained to face all situations put in front of you as a skipper! And thats something to be proud of ( wondering if the people in wizz or Air Asia have the same feeling after their 4 days??:sad:)

JungleJett

6th Feb 2009, 09:44

Dear Schneider T/ Capt. Krunch and anybody else in the know,

I am a little confused regarding the grading system. Let's say you have all 4s and 5s on your LPC/OPC except one item being a 3 for some stupid reason and your over all score being a 4. Are you screwed and have to wait another 2 and a half year for upgrade?
In other words is it the total average grade that counts or ANY item within a checkride?

Thanks guys.

Capt Krunch

6th Feb 2009, 11:16

JungleJett

you are graded on the individual items, yes. But it's the overall grade that matters.. I.E. you might have all 4's and 5's and a couple of 3's. if the over all average is equal to 4, then thats your grade on the check. and thats the grade that matters.

shneidertrophy

And how many times did the opposite happen? People receiving 4 or 5s while actually they should have been failed and sent home? Many many times more, I am sure you will agree on that one too!

yes I agree.

In my opinion too many bad ones slipped through still so if you would ask me, that selection process should even be more strict!

Yes I agree there as well.

all this off course applies as well ( and even more so) to those masses and masses of DECs we seem to be hiring at the moment!

well I must say, NOT just the DEC, we have some pretty low standards in general in all new hire seats. ( new hire meaning, the past few years, not just at the moment) this of course is a very general statement and is not applicable to everyone, as we also have some pretty keen guys in the right seat, and left seat for that matter.. after all we just hired a ex-concord skipper.. now thats interesting.:ok:

Poisoned by Compromise
Krunch

shneidertrophy

6th Feb 2009, 20:24

Yeah well, we just hired that ex CX B777 fleet chief also...

You remember, the one who did the low passes in Seattle and got the sack for it!
How is that for flying skills ey? (No too sure about the knowledge and CRM part though...time will tell)

Maybe QR is planning a stunt team for the future recruitment roadshows..That will attract people for sure!

vivace

6th Feb 2009, 20:38

Usual barrel of BS from Schneider, youre in QR not EK, yes EK,CX there may be pride going through the command but the guys ive seen getting through the process in QR are a joke. The command process in QR is easy, as long as u dont make a big f**k up.FOs I flew with who didnt have a clue passed easily,the good ones struggled. I remember a couple who I thought would fail for sure and they are now trainers. Wizz, Air Asia,Easyjet etc have as strict a regime as any,failures are as high there.

Ronaldo 330

6th Feb 2009, 22:00

Qr orders 140 airplanes /Air Asia 200 airplanes.
I just saw CP A320 he aske if i know any F/o want to get a job coz he just received 4 resignation in 1 day so he seams a bit warried . Its not hard to guess where those F/o s going. K.L nice la !!!!
Air Asia standards bad ? In QR we have 12 Air Asia pilots 5 Capt and 7 F/O they got a job in 5 star airline how come when there standard is bad ?

Sneidhertrophy learn before you talk and one day you can be a good Capt.

Fubaliera

7th Feb 2009, 12:34

It took the ex CX 777 dude a long time to get a job. Any welcome

Qatari515

7th Feb 2009, 17:19

Training in QR...well thats a story an sich....

Looking at that post here above from BNG, you must be talking of " O. bin Laden"....he is a piece indeed. Always wondered how he got through.

In the middle east its very easy guys...
Aim at the fact that you probably will finish in exactly the same position as the one you started at! Anything else should be seen as a bonus!
I was told this by a long term expat in the gulf...and in most cases it has been proven correct!

So you will get one shot in general at influencing your career here...when you get hired! Try to get there the seat and fleet you where aiming for. Accept anything else and you might be stuck forever!

Regarding the CX dude:

I do agree, we can use chaps like him around here. I have welcomed him aboard personally. Besides that: if CX always did a low pass in Seattle, how come this person was fired over it?

Ronaldo 330: stop the publicity machine about Air Asia please. What you are saying is BS on itself! AA has 200 planes as part of a preliminary deal so far. Financially they are not that sound anymore! But hey, I hope you will enjoy your time there....
About the ex air asia pilots here....nice one:ugh:....why did they come here in the first place?Because they thought AA's future was so bright? Be serious Pllrrreeease! Just ask most of them what they prefer: QR or AA? Most of them will not go back even if you would beat them with a stick! Only one went back, nice chap, but he went back for a very strong personal motivation which had nothing to do with airlines themselves! Says enough I would say!

Vivace...not sure if I can agree with you there mate...Some people indeed did get through unrightfully so and others where failed for BS reasons, but all in all I have to say that once past that interview all the instructors do a great job in training the people up to the required standards. From the SIM to the Line training!
And please do not think EK is any better...just have friends going through their upgrades overthere and it is NOT better than what we see here. The only thing good about EK is that you get a set date to start training but that is all! CX, well,just go to the fragrant harbour forums and check it out. POLITICS GALLORE!

Ronaldo 330

7th Feb 2009, 18:01

Q515 i see you are not long in QR if you are you would know that in AA we have 2 EX Capt from QR now on management position .

Qatari 515 for you QR is the best . Am sure you one of new Capt who goes around office and "help" for free expecting to get office work i seen it i know it .

Qatari515

7th Feb 2009, 19:32

Make another guess my iliterate friend...

The truth often lays in places you would expect it to be the least! Use your brain and you can see I have been here longer than you are (or should I say than you have been)! If that would matter at all...

:}

My apologies for forgetting the first Capt who left QR to join AA's managment! That happend a while ago and he was here for such a short period anyhow nobody misses him, contrarely to the one who left two weeks ago! At least you are not arguing about the important facts, being that BOTH of them left to pursue a higher PERSONAL goal!:ugh:

Smirnoff N21

7th Feb 2009, 23:37

Oh Jeez same story on and on. When was it last time I've had a look at this crap? Ages that's right fellas you need to get away from all the smal talk, bloody useless and a waste of time. My applause to the crew performed RD or whatever it was. Take care, your slowly dying in indignity nowadays LHS chap.
There's more in life than bitching on pprune or aviation but the sandpit makes you blind I guess.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!

P.S. Off to the nice pub in the middle of Europe what could be better? :ok:

Fubaliera

8th Feb 2009, 06:38

We have pubs in Doha as well

JungleJett

8th Feb 2009, 06:38

What could be better??....A threesome with J.Lo and Jessica Alba....:}

Ronaldo 330

8th Feb 2009, 08:32

Q515 in QR when you resing you are justa number and no one will miss you only problem they have to get a new clown to work youre roster .

Smirinof if i remember you have a lot of posts on PPRUNE how come you changed youre mind now ?

QR the best ! long live Land Cruiser

Fubaliera

8th Feb 2009, 08:55

Unfortunatley thats with every big company. We need money, they need pilots. No friendship involved:ok:

Smirnoff N21

8th Feb 2009, 09:09

A threesome with J.Lo and Jessica Alba
Hmm tempting indeed, you got style mate... How about a nice horse ride on sunday morning on a very soft and juicy green pasture with a openair breakfast served by J.LO and Jessica wearing just a skirt. Today is sunday time for a ride fellas :ok:
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!

JungleJett

8th Feb 2009, 10:35

Smirnoff,

I like the way your twisted little mind works.....

Black Stain

8th Feb 2009, 23:23

And perhaps SNAM it is also time for you to return to your people and stop whining. But perhaps you cannot find your way having only one eye.

Smirnoff N21

9th Feb 2009, 07:10

SNAM, there's a little button on the forehead ON/OFF and a circuit breaker behind your ears. Here's how to proceed put the little toggle switch to ON position and make sure the breaker in IN. If you still didn't get the message well, it's time for you to return to your roots.
Here is translation of the previous posts:
QR WILL NEVER CHANGE AND WHAT MATTERS IS WHO YOU WORK WITH NOT THE STAR RATING. IT'S TOTALLY USELESS TO HOPE AND EXPECT A CHANGE FOR BETTER ALL REMAINS THE SAME.
I love those 2000 hours know it all Cpt. wannabe smart-ass judges.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks and I mean it!!!:ok:

Ronaldo 330

11th Feb 2009, 08:28

You talking as if you are happy where you are now . but facyt is you called Malaysian Capt so many times to arrange you job with Air Asia ha ha and some people just smille ( left QR now he is in best place but still searching for better ) ha ha

shneidertrophy

11th Feb 2009, 08:42

So let me get the facts straight here...

Smirnoff is unhappy in Wizzair (where he went to get a rapid command without training) and wants to go to Air Asia. The last Malaysian Capt that left us left for personal and opportunistic reasons (GMFO pos and he needed to get his son a position in their cadet sheme --> good reasons if you ask me but nothing to do with a choice between two airlines) although he actually admitted to me that pure personally he would have preferred to stay here.

So it turns out to be that the two current walhalla's of aviation, according to the unhappy/frustrated pilot comumity here in QR, are in fact just cheap ways to a possible quick command (was the case before the crisis anyway, nowadays it all remains to be seen) but are actually sub standard outfits when it comes to personal preferences!

GREAT WAY TO GO GUYS! Just keep convincing your peers of making the wrong decision just because you need some re-assurances about a decesion you made yourselves! A little bit selfish if you ask me...

vivace

11th Feb 2009, 10:17

This is getting tiresome, the guys ranting here are thinking of leaving and yet to leave(ronaldo 330 who I know as an example)...one of the south american gents about to leave. The few who left that I personally know and still in contact with enjoying it there, nicely set up,enjoying the lifestyle and building up the command hrs...like I advised them before they left...they can actually go anywhere anyway after if they desire...left seat is left seat...so the decision wasnt so great. They have no intention of leaving so cant be bad.Like I say before on these posts, leaving QR is no big deal, CX,EK,BA,AF etc yes...big decision. Id be there now, but too many kids in private school..now thats the downside of AA...great lifestyle,company but no schooling. :(

Smirnoff N21

11th Feb 2009, 13:26

You nailed it vivace.
Command is command cheap expensive whatever. :ok:
shneidertrophy keep on dreaming mate while you get screwed over and over again and again and again but hey thanks to QR for an excellent training provided so other LCC don't have worry about our standards. The choice is always yours. Being masochist isn't a crime so they say.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

shneidertrophy

11th Feb 2009, 17:57

Hey, I was just giving a comment as an outsider here. Tired of reading the same posts from the same people time after time, only to conclude that it was all B.S. anyway!

I wonder how many people who actually left (Smirnoff) or are about to leave are still participating in these forums? Must be quite a lot. Strange...I can tell you one thing, the moment I leave the sandpit behind I will not be willing to have anything to do with it ...EVER! And that for sure will include pprune/middle east!

Masochism? Or sado-masochism? Les gouts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas, mate!

loc22550

12th Feb 2009, 10:36

Sorry ..for going back to initial thread...:bored:

I'm just wondering if Qr is still hiring DEC on A-330...When i see some of those A-330 CPT with staff number 25000+..:confused:!!
Does it make sense.???When you think that captain on 330 can enjoy an "easy roster and 10..15 days off/month, ..yes!!!Some of them receive 7 days off in a row WITHOUT asking anything....yes!!!
At the same time CPT 320 still suffering with their Sh..roster!!

Just have one question: How comes this happen in a "so called" 5 stars airline??