Pay for jobs, new (?) twist.

[CaptainProp]

Found this on FLT (global) today:

Our client Airline are increasing their fleet by an additional 2 aircraft thus have a requirement for additional B737 First Officers for the Summer 2009 season.

These positions are specifically for ‘low houred’ candidates to allow the candidate a valuable opportunity to progress his/her career opportunity(s) thereafter.

The candidate shall be required to complete our Self Sponsored 100 hours Line Training/Flying Programme with our client Airline and upon successful completion of the programme may expect to be employed directly by our client Airline for the Summer 2009 season.

Second/third part should probably read "These positions are specifically for low-hour-not-attractive-for-most-airlines-under-current-market-conditions first officers who will happily pay to work to have any chance of a so called career. We are more then happy to add another 30 K (?) debt to the 75 K (?) they already have from initial their initial training.
Upon successful completion of the pay to work program the candidate may expect to move on to the the next pay to work scam, alternatively we will squeeze out all the hours we can over the summer months and then we will kick you out."

Good luck to all!

CP

[B767PL]

What comapny is this? What airline?

Worst part is I bet they will not have a lack of applicants..

[happyjack]

Yeah I saw it too. It specifically says those with experience should not apply! The whole career is a total joke now! Roll on retirement. :ok:

[Birdy767]

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/358103-market-flooded-experienced-pilots-makes-pimps-happy.html

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/358900-european-commission-rule-status-pilots.html

http://www.pprune.org/french-forum/358018-royal-air-maroc.html

The problem has to be solved by the all Aviation Industry involving Pilots, Airlines, and Authorities.

[Hold position]

Pay to fly has been around for some time; astrios has done it and others by including it on the type rating package! And others by giving reduce salary till you have six month and Ryan air don’t pay much for new FO till they pass some time ? Am afraid aviation is not what it used to be .it does not pay to be in aviation these days unless you get lucky and get in with one of the major airline.

[FrankAbagnale]

This particular add was for www.corendon-airlines.com

[TOFFAIR]

This issue seems to be a worldwide problem. It is still hard to get the first real job and hours build up. Then there is a kind of greed of wanting to jump from a seneca to a 737 or 320 directly, disconsidering regional or other smaller companies. Here in Brazil we have Gol giving the "opportunity" to get a job by putting 30K (for a scam not TR!)down, no matter qualification or experience, I think those who chose that way helped to create this condition.

[Reluctant737]

Hold position,

No, that's no longer correct. We've done away with the six month reduced salary. New cadets can expect a proper salary from the day they complete line training.

Ad

[astronaute]

I sent a e-mail to the piece of :mad: who serve as CEO of that trash airline ! :mad: telling him what I think about his ******* scam :mad::mad::mad:

Every one should do the same !

[beachbumflyer]

I think the only ones to blame are the scum bags willing to pay for a job.

[Hold position]

Reluctant 737 it is good to hear that they done away with the 6 months.
As for starting with prop job I have to agree that what you get as hands on flying experience on the start of your flying carrier is extremely beneficial .
:D

[Superpilot]

I think the only ones to blame are the scum bags willing to pay for a job.

Get a grip on reality. Wannabes have no say. They would go for anything after forking out for flight training. The ones to blame are the 53 year old lazy fat cat pilots who are unwilling to complain either internally or to their unions. Don't make me say it again :ugh:

[RSFTO]

wannabe have a lot to say and to do with it. those are the ones who ruin us toghether with the management. Those wannabes that pay to work do not desserve to be pilots.

[Superpilot]

I'm sorry but that's a very childish response to a very serious issue which is now biting into the recruitment industry more ferociously than ever before. You can complain about wannabes, TRTOs , bean counters and management all you like but realistically only you (the active, senior pilot workforce) can actually do anything about it.

The problem is that in the recent past too many senior pilots have seen this as not directly affecting them as they will have guaranteed their positions/earnings, so why should they care? But as evident with this scheme in the context of this downturn where pilots are being made redundant, it’s clear to see that inexperienced low timers are preferred over time-on-type experience due to the income airlines/TRTOs can generate (which is two-fold – profit on type rating courses and reduced earnings). You’re terms are now directly on the line here.

[bluelearjetdriver]

Superpilot, I fully agree with you. I am working for a company which has just started this Pay-As-You-Go-FO citing the current economic climate as the main reason for it (the need to generate extra revenue). An uproar ensued and this was promptly brought before the union (the collective pilot voice)..........all to no avail.

The only feasible way of stopping this is to go on strike, and we all know that if that happens, the company will go under.

What other options are there?

I do however know that the wheel-of-life turns.........

[Chesty Morgan]

BLJD, I think that even mentioning the S word to an airline, even if there is no intention to to do it, will have them quivering in their boots these days.

Maybe we have got them by the short and curlies but we're just to soft to do anything about it.

[clanger32]

Have to re-iterate my view that Superpilot and BLJD are correct here. Yes, you could stop the rot if you could persuade every single new fATPL fresh out of flight school to not do these schemes, but you just will never be able to do that. And as long as there's a handful that will take the schemes up, and as long as there's someone to offer the training and as long as the airlines can make a profit, then someone will offer it

The only way to stop it is for it to cease to be in the airlines interests to offer it. And only those that can influence the airline are in position to do that...as Chesty alludes to. But then, how many are prepared to stand up and be counted to defend their own long term interests if it impacts their own short term deal....

[Bruce Wayne]

I have to agree with Superpilot, BLJD and Clangar 32.

Beachbumpilot & RSFTO, your comments are neither professional nor realistic and are rather, to be frank, idiotic.

First off, terming an applicant for a flight deck position as a "wannabe" is derogatory. They have an fATPl or an ATPL, however are lacking in a rating and time on type.

As you well know, if you were made redundant from a 737 flight deck and were applying for a position on different equipment, you would have neither time on type or rating either. True, you have line flying experience, but you are not typed nor experienced in that type. Ergo, that would make *YOU* a wannabe too!

Now in respect of a "wannabe" paying for a rating to get a position; what choices do they have?

A pilot with an fATPL or an ATPL looking for a flight deck position with airline has paid up a considerable amount of money for their training and ratings, many have done their bit instructing, dropping meat-bombs, flying crappy piston engine aircraft on charters, etc etc. have earned little money, most probably put themselves into debt to obtain their licenses and put strain on their personal lives to pursue a career doing something that they want to do.

what they love to do.

There is not the financial rewards or security or pensions that used to be associated with being a pilot.

So, faced with having borne expense and stress in pursuing a career, they are now faced with the following options:

1. Pay for a type rating on the *promise* of a job at the end of it.
2. carry on hunting for a position that will not involve an SSTR.

Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* to endure the expense of an SSTR ?

Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* to endure the cost of an SSTR on the *promise* of a job ?

Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* the insecurity of having paid for an SSTR they will be dropped like hot brick for another SSTR candidate ?

It would be apparent from your posts that you cannot implement available information and circumstantial information to determine a situation and such that does *not* make you good pilot material.

From an employers perspective, there is little incentive to take on a candidate, meet the costs of integrating that/those candidates into the operation and training them only to see them move on within a given time. Even if they are bonded for the period to recoup the TR expense the cost of crew turnover are a hard cost to bear and recur.

The circumstances that have created this are due to the major airlines, the integrated training facilities and the CAA.

The CAA allows credit for integrated graduates. However, if you are a modular "graduate" you have completed the same course, sat the same exams and had the same flight test to the same standards.

The integrated schools "act" as a training facility to an operator or a number of operators, or perhaps a "way in" to larger airlines. The operators now have ability to "outsource" pilot training.

These circumstances have arisen from market forces and have been gradual changes to the situation we are in now. These changes have arisen not from wannabes but from the training organizations and the operators, allowed by a failure to consider the course of evolution by all concerned.

The only people that have the ability or *have* had the ability to prevent this evolution it current acting flight crews. NOT the wannabes.

You sit and pontificate about how wannabes are affecting T&C's for crews and how SSTR's are damaging the industry. Yes T&C's are declining, yest security is precarious yes SSTR's are damaging, yet *YOU* do nothing to change this apart from blame those that are suffering the most.

It's the wannabes that have to stump up for the SSTR and the wannabes that are inheriting a career with T&C's ever declining to point of nothing.

[Conan The Barber]

It's somewhat bizarre, but not unexpected, how people these days blame others for their own actions. It's always somebody else's fault it seems.

Whatever you do is by own choice. Nobody forced you to do it. You made the decision, now accept the responsibility.

[Bruce Wayne]

Conan, you are spot on. *we* are all responsible for the situation in the industry. *We* all work within it, *we* are all affected by it.

It's not the royal "we" but the actual *we*, that is *us*, all of us in the industry.

Often we react with short term measures, neglecting the long term repercussions, or even ignoring the long term or failing to consider long term effects.

Pilots, Cabin Crew, ATC, Ground Crew, Mantainence, Management and so on, all of us in the industry work within the same industry, together and with the same goals.

[Conan The Barber]

I did not say 'we', I said 'you'.

Hiding in a group is simply another way of transfering individual responsibilty to others. Each individual is responsible for their own actions and the consequences of them.

If you choose to buy a type rating and/or line training, then you are also responsible for the consequences thereof. You and nobody else.

Once people accept that personal responsibilty goes a bit further than just ensuring that 'I'm all right Jack', things might start to change.

[bluelearjetdriver]

Folks, we live in an age of instant gratification (a self explanatory term) and Selfish Capitalism (the actions of a very small group of individuals who will happily destroy the lives of a large number people in pursuit of ever increasing profit). This applies to all industries, but I will concentrate on the airline industry.

The only way to stop this, is with collective action (i.e. via unions). As I have experienced, the current unions are incapable of looking after the long term interests of pilots. This is because all they really are, is a specialised financial services company,which sells legal protection cover for pilots. There is no incentive for them to actually protect the pilot workforce as a whole.

I believe that it is time start a union (geez, I never thought I would say this), that has both pilots, and the industries, long term health as it's prime objective. It will NOT provide legal protection (a separate company can provide this). It WILL negotiate pay and T's and C's and any issues relating to the long and short term health of the pilots and the industry(this will include training/recruitment issues). It will be strong enough to call for action when it is needed, and not back down until the correct solution has been found. A membership subscription of £10-00 per month would be payable to cover administration costs. It will be internet based for quick delivery of information and casting of electronic votes.

A lot of companies are being run accountants, and by their nature they cannot look beyond annual results because, let get real about it, their jobs are on the line if they do not produce the results. Simple really. They do not think in terms of "short term pain for long term gain". Selfish Capitalists with a dash of instant gratification thrown in... Some balance is needed.

The only questions I have are:
1) How do I start this union?
2) How does does one get members?

[RSFTO]

it should be gratis so everybody will join.
also with internett is easy and free of charge, besides your own internet provider, to communicate

[African Drunk]

Which one did the Heavylift crews join? Was it TGWU? I know they found them much better than BALPA

[MacTrim]

well ,as far as recieving financial remuneration for our 'flight' toil, the job may still be refered to as 'that'... Yet, Ive refered to it for years now(20+ on 72's & 73's)as "a white nigger workin in a black man's world" where the black man= CEO+Exec management. We can, though, escape their relentless empire(duck shoving)building-held up with THEIR strings&mirrors-and just do what WE ALL do best ,and that's fly the wing. Flying with low timers is an opportunity to influence in our own diplomatic way this art of conservation of energy,if only for our 'professional' satisfaction. As computer controlled automation has become the norm{738 RNP(0.1)RNAV}rather than the exception, I totally agree with previous posts re pilot obselesence. The day is not far off(less than 10yrs is my guess)when it will be an Air Safety Reportable Item whenever VNAV PATH/SPD is disengauged. The spepo's havent been flying all those UAVs around Arabia(see country as a collective prior to the Balfoure Declaration)just for the fun of straifing a few Bedous, these missions are all being logged and 'route redundancies' proven. There may still be a 'window' for a young bloke starting out today, but hell if Id let my two sons play this game. It may have 25 more years to playout, perhaps...

[CaptainProp]

I questioned BALPA, via my reps, for quite a few years as to why we had pilots negotiating my T & Cs against professional and experienced negotiators representing the company... The response was cold, at best. This is beyond my understanding and people can say whatever they want, but there is always the problem and/or potential of reps (pilots) pushing and favoring deals that would benefit themselves rather then the collective.

I think the way to go is to use the existing framework and infrastructure of BALPA, contracting external negotiators representing us. The reasons for this approach are many. If they under perform we have the option to use another firm which gives an incentive for them to perform as we would probably be one of their largest costumers. With BALPAs framework and existing agreements with most companies we would not need to go through the hoops of getting recognized by the companies as representatives for the pilot force etc etc. Personally, I would be happy to pay double of what I am paying today if I knew that there was not a pilot, who most of the time fly a full schedule ei 870-something hrs a year, negotiating my T & Cs and directly influencing me and my family's lives.

The problem is that BALPA is a giant dinosaur that is operating the way it is and there seems to be very little will for changes.....

Maybe it's time to start a new thread on this topic?

Standing by for incoming. :}

CP

[IRISHPILOT]

as sad as these programmes are, this one is not a scam. - A scam would have to involve a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation, and this is not the case.

Other posters seem to confirm that they get exactly what the contract says and it is a fact that that airline needs a few more FOs for the summer.

Likely, if nothing unforeseen happens, the aircraft will not be parked over the winter, thus needing crews (ask them where they would be for winter and they will tell you. And yes, the winter base is not a nice country to work in, but then they pay a lot better for that too...).

While this programme is just under 9k, it is certainly possible to add 26k for living expenses, flights, etc during its duration to make up 30k. However, even if I went for business class tickets and the Hilton all the way, I would be hard pushed.

scam = a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation

fraud = crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them