BA Service

[Final 3 Greens]

Turned up at T5 for BA720 to Zurich.

Flight ETD 1900, arrived at 1500 due to meeting ending early, already checked in online, on a C class ticket.

Flight promulgated as cancelled.

BA tried re-routing through LH, who wouldn't check me in and sent me back to BA.

Bottom line, am now on a flight tomorrow morning.

What really surprised me is that BA would not assist with hotac etc.

The consequences of this are that a Swiss client is realy not too pleased with me, as I was due to facilitate a workshop tomorrow and Friday - I wouldn't be surprised if they decline to pay me a full (or any) fee for tomorrow, as I'll arrive about 3 hours after they start.

So that's £363 for a hotel room (yes, you did read that correctly, but one has to take what's available), £36 for dinner and up to a four figure sum for lost fees.

I did ask for and receive this letter from BA as it crossed my mind that I might need a 'force majeure' defence against being sued for breach of contract by my client.

"Dear Mr F3G

I contacted our operations department this afternoon to establish the exact reason that your flight, BA720 to Zurich, was cancelled earlier today.

I was told for 'rotational reasons', due to the adverse weather conditions it was decided to cancel some of our flights, BA720 being one of these flights.

I am sorry that you were inconvenienced, and hope that this explanation is sufficient for you."

I understand that flights are affected by bad wx, but come on, if they canx at -4 hours and make no attempt to operate or provide hotac on a business class fare, is that really acceptable?

In recent years, I have avoided BA because of their industrial relations issues and poorer service levels.

The only reason I will fly with the company in the future is if no alternative is available - easyJet would have been a better choice today due to their wx policy and a damned sight less expensive than BA club.

I felt very sorry for the duty manager, who was clearly very uncomfortable about having to take the company line and behaved like a gentleman.

[renfrew]

You were there at 15.00.BA surely had plenty of time to reroute you via PAR/BRU/FRA or wherever.
If not you were surely entitled to a hotel.
A few years ago this would all have been done without question.I know times are hard for the airlines and they hate transferring passengers to competitors but this sort of service is ridiculous.
I hope you will complain bitterly and demand compensation.

[k3lvc]

What's their excuse for no HOTAC - even on the times when they've canx me due to weather or operational issues that's been the bare minimum - the only argument I've had is about compensation which they generally wriggle out of.

[Final 3 Greens]

No excuse given.

They just refused to give it.

[k3lvc]

Certainly not normal in my experience - suggest you nip over the road to Waterworld and bed down in reception

[Final 3 Greens]

Funnily enoughm I booked a return trip LON/ZRH/LON to get my silver card and I was thinking of using them more in 2009 to get a gold.

No chance of that now, if this is the way the sad g*ts who manage that company deliver customer service.

[Desert Diner]

BA tried re-routing through LH, who wouldn't check me in and sent me back to BA.

Why did LH refuse you?

[Final 3 Greens]

LH said that check in for the flights was closed, although I arrived at STD -90.

I guess (they didn't tell me) that the first flight LHR-DUS was going to be so late that the connection DUS-ZRH was impossible.

The BA agent who gave me the invol rerouting did say that LH might not accept me, but it was all he could offer, so perhaps he knew something.

[VAFFPAX]

Get back to St Pancras, take the Eurostar to Paris, fly via CDG to ZRH - Might be a little more than 363 quid, but you certainly wouldn't lose your 4 figure consultancy fee?

Then bill BA for the costs of making your own connection. :-)

S.

[Final 3 Greens]

VAFFPax

I could have got to Paris faster by plane, but there was no onward connection available.

I'll be sending the BA company secretary a letter today seeking to recover my expenses and consequential losses.

Should the company decide to refuse this, it will go the county court after 21 days.

Old Tora

Thank you for taking the time to write your kind advice.

Unfortunately, much of this is not feasible for me, but I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

[TopBunk]

F3G

The processes that govern whether compensation is due are determined by international agreements.

The internal BA systems show that for yesterday all cancellations were deemed to be due to the weather and that no compensation was due.

If you like, in circumstances like those that prevailed, it was an 'act of god' ie beyond the airlines' control, hence no compensation due by right.

Move that weather to somewhere like AMS or CDG, which operate at about 70% runway capacity and there is the ability to shift more of the schedule still, but at LHR running at 98% runway capacity, then there is no option but to cancel services.

Back to the 3rd runway debate.

[manintheback]

The internal BA systems show that for yesterday all cancellations were deemed to be due to the weather and that no compensation was due.



Now some might just find that a little conveniant. What was that latest ruling on compo from the EU after Alitalias effort to avoid paying?

[TopBunk]

manintheback

Pray tell us then what you attribute the cancellations to, and in what way BA can be held responsible:ugh:

[old,not bold]

Go for them in the Small Claims Court to recover all your money and get any additional payments you are due, including your time and costs in making the claim. Assemble your case, under UK and EU law, quote the relevant regulations, and file it. It just needs to be clear, NOT a "lawyer's submission". Attend the hearing, say your piece if asked, and you will be treated fairly under the law, not BA's idea of what they must do.

At no time go near a lawyer.

A judge will give short shrift to nonsense about weather and so forth, when the truth is plain.

It's inexpensive and works. If BA offers to settle beforehand accept only what you have asked for, and if they are not very, very polite indeed, as in "Please accept a voucher for a free Business Class trip for your and your partner as well as this cheque" add 20%.


Good Luck!

PS I know that the term "Small Claims Court" is not accurate, but everyone knows what is meant by it. Google for the details of what to do.

[Final 3 Greens]

Old, not bold & Manintheback

Thanks for your support.

If BA stick to their guns, I will go to the small claims division and have no fear over the process, which evens the odds up in a David and Goliath encounter.

[Final 3 Greens]

Old, not bold

Thanks for your support.

If BA stick to their guns, I will go to the small claims division and have no fear over the process, which evens the odds up in a David and Goliath encounter.

Top Bunk

Although you asked the question of another poster, let me answer you.

Despite the god like arrogance of some BA managers I have met, I do not yet believe that they can control the weather.

However, sudden fog did not descend on LHR yesterday evening (that I would accept as being a reasonable excuse) and the 1540 flight to Zurich did operate.

What BA did was to take a decision to cancel the 1900 Zurich flight to operate other flights, fair enough you may argue.

However, to cancel a flight several hours in advance and not to inform the (checked in) passenger whilst he may be able to make alternative arrangements, despite having their email and mobile telephone contact details on file is completely unacceptable - do you understand the concept of mitigating losses?

Had I hired an executive jet to take me to Zurich last night, then I would be thrown out of court for failing to mitigate the cost to BA, but I didn't and I will nail the company if they do not accept the financial impact that they caused. BTW, my track record is played 3, won 3. I don't like investing my time in court action, but in this instance the numbers mandate it.

[tablelover]

Surprised at BA's reluctance to assist with HOTAC, but not sure of all the facts.

However to expect BA to call every passenger throughout the day when thousands would have been affected is just plain daft! You were however informed by whatever means about 4hrs before. For extended periods of time yesterday flowrates into LHR were 26 aircraft per hour - BA has no say in the matter. The fog had been forecast the previous evening, did you make any attempt to contact the company to see if operations were running normally to 'mitigate your losses' during the day?

As Topbunk says, legally it is defined as 'an act of god' and this was accepted when you purchased your ticket, in the small print.

The quote in your original post says the flight was cancelled 'for rotational reasons' this is different to your claim that it was cancelled to operate other flights. The rotational reason covers many things, one of which may be crew hours or aerodrome operating times either at zrh or somewhere else on that aircrafts/schedules rotation. Thus mitigating BA's losses due to the 'act of god'. And without knowing when the decision was made it is unfair to criticise BA as you were made aware 4 hrs before your flight left.

As you say sudden fog did not descend on LHR last night but was severly affecting all operators out of LHR.

You may well have a case with being refused hotac, but am unsure as to whether you reside close enough to LHR to not make that necessary. Especially as you were told at 1500 and the flight the company rebooked you on was the following day. Which brings us to the point BA fulfilled their part of the deal and got you to Zrh at the earliest opportunity.

[TopBunk]

F3G

The following may help:

New EU Legislation (EC Regulation 261/2004) was introduced on 17 February 2005 with regard to compensation for cancelled flights. All claims should initially be made online through ba.com/euclaims, where passengers must enter the following information:
passenger names as printed on the ticket
flight number
scheduled departure date
booking reference
One person can submit a claim for up to six people, but they must have the same surname and be booked on the
same PNR, or separate claims must be submitted.

I understand that the internal BA coding reflects the above EU Regulation.

[old,not bold]

Tablelover

Just for the record, of course no-one expects that an airline, even BA would ring every passenger.

But they have mobile numbers and email addresses, there's such a thing as a text message and, if they haven't done so already a competent 12-year-old could set up a system for BA whereby an announcement of a problem with a particular flight can be sent by text to all passengers for that flight whose PNR's include a mobile number, as well as an email ditto for those with mobile email such as Blackberry. Time needed to execute this; 2-5 minutes.

Given the availability of this technology, if BA haven't used it they can only expect to be blamed and sued. I have no sympathy.

But I wonder if in fact the system is in place, and BA staff just can't be bothered to use it? Why does that sound more likely?

Anyone know which it is? Can't be bothered to set up a notification system, or can't be bothered to use it?

[k3lvc]

It is used - can't for the life of me remember when but I got an SMS at some godforsaken hour in the morning to tell me that my early am flight was canx.

[tablelover]

:ugh::ugh:

Yep appreciate system does exist guys and could be used in certain circumstances! However you have to be realistic, this was not the only flight operating yesterday. Any guess how many flights may have been canx/changed yesterday? A few I assure you, especially when the flowrate reduces to 26 p/hr. However in this case the individual says he was told 4hrs before ETD, so why argue about a system that in this case was not needed?? 4hrs notice is surely sufficient. If the decision had recently been made how can BA be blamed or indeed sued??

What law or more specifically part of the contract has BA broken? And what proof is there? In the small claims court you have to establish a loss you have suffered as a result of the defendants actions. The fact that a system is available but you claim is not used/employed by BA is not a legal argument that would hold any water I am afraid.

I am sure I have misinterpretted it but there, at first reading, appears a touch of bitterness and anger in your post towards BA. Such outbursts would be best left out of most arguments especially ones conducted in a legal arena. I apologise if my this is not the way you intended your post to be read.

Rgds

[Final 3 Greens]

Tablelover

A touch of anger and bitterness?


Refused hotac 2,000km from home
One of my best customer accounts in jeopardy, in a difficult trading year
Airline took no proactive action to advise or rebook me and waited until I arrived


And I had paid a premium price for the ticket.

You bet there is some anger and bitterness.

Frankly, your posts read either as an apologist or an industry worker.

This incident was disgraceful, easyJet provide wx related hotac on their fares, never mind club europe fares.

If -4 hours was sufficient, why was it not possible to re-route? Obviously -4 hours was not sufficient and BA will have to inform the court when they took the decision to cancel.

I can quantify the loss easily enough, don't need your pontification about how difficult it is, you sound like a BA manager attempting to limit damage.

Top Bunk

I appreciate that you are trying to be helpful, but this is reallynot the point.

[VAFFPAX]

F3G, no service from Bruxelles Zaventem either?

I found two connections which would have required you to stay overnight in Basel, but they would've gotten you to Zürich by 7am the next day.

Connection 1:

Eurostar: St Pancras - Bruxelles Midi ex 16:30, arr 20:02 (GBP 170)
B-Rail: Bruxelles Midi - Zaventem (BRU) ex 20:18, arr 20:42 (free)
Swiss: BRU - BSL (Basel Mulhouse) ex 21:35, arr 22:40 (GBP 400)
SBB: Basel HBB - Zürich HBB ex 06:07, arr 07:00 (CHF 31)

Connection 2:

Swiss: LCY - BSL (Basel Mulhouse) ex 20:35, arr 23:10 (EUR 350)
SBB: Basel HBB - Zürich HBB ex 06:07, arr 07:00 (CHF 31)

The cost would've been high for the first connection, but possibly less than the loss you had to take on your consultancy fee (if you pay premium prices, I presume your consultancy fee is upwards of GBP 5K).

But, that said... it's over and done with - I'd second the others and say take 'em to Small Claims Court, provided your consultancy fee was under the SCC limit. Keep those details for the next one...

S.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

I'd be interested in seeing the Particulars of Claim.

What this has made me think about is whether LHR is a 'Just In Time' airport. I suppose for quite some time now I've avoided the place for the very reasons given above, it cannot handle anything that falls outside of 95% of normal operating conditions. Just not the sort of place to depend on, and the airlines who fly out of LHR tend to be below average performers too in their own right, which just compounds the problems.

Regional airports and trains are the way to go. Would never have said that ten years ago, how times change.

[BOFH]

Sorry to hear that, FTG.

They can really foul up - I can remember flying from Frankfurt to Heathrow and then straight back again because of the cancellation of our evening flight. Expensive day out!

In your situation, I'd have got into Frankfurt asap and taken the train. They run all night. I appreciate that you did not have this information to hand, but I find it disappointing that someone from BA did not adopt some initiative.

Hope they make things right and that your client is understanding.

BOFH

Edit:
Oh nuts, oldtora beat me to it, I started this reply hours ago.

[PAXboy]

TableloverHowever to expect BA to call every passenger throughout the day when thousands would have been affected is just plain daft!Firstly, the on-line check in will have an e-mail, so that is an automated response by the computer.

Secondly, the pax can enter their mobile (cell) number at booking and receives an automatically generated SMS msg. (as another has mentioned)

Both of the above require one human to authorise (perhaps) 150 emails and SMS's. The system can then handle the enquires via online and automated SMS for those that cannot get online in a hurry. If the system were designed well, the amount of human interaction is much less. I worked in telecomms and IT for 27 years, this is the kind of automated system that carriers should have been putting in place for the last ten years.

One simple example, on a trip to MUC a few years ago, using LH and the new terminal there. After checking in, we were in the shops and I got an SMS advising me of a change of gate. Piece of cake.

If F3G had received an SMS telling him of the canx and inviting him to go online to check alternative routing? Or to canx and get his money back? He might have chosen not to go to the airport at all but straight to LCY/Eurostar or other routes. A system to handle canx? Easy and doable.

THREAD DRIFT
Scumbag O'Riley... whether LHR is a 'Just In Time' airport.Yes - it is. Because they are schedule to handle more flights than they can handle (evidenced by the long queues for dep and inbound for gates, not to mention the stacking for arrival that wastes zillions of tons of fuel and time) It only takes the smallest of problems and the delays escalate out of all proportion. As is being discussed in the LHR 3R thread in AA&R, the thrid runway will not alleviate any of this because - they would just book in more rotations to pay for the 3R and the delays will be the same.

I had not thought of using the term Just-in-Time about EGLL before - but you are spot on. Also, nice PPRuNe name!!!

[BOFH]

PAXboy
(automated SMSes and emails)

Yes, have one right here. Don't even need a human.

A is subscribed as having an interest in XYZ. If XYZ crashes (probably not good in airline parlance), A gets an SMS and an email, saying what's gone wrong, whom to contact, etc.

All quite elementary and would have saved FTG some sweat and money. Escalation process for C passengers would have this handed off to someone who could assess the best option, the trains from FRA run all night to Zuerich, about four hours on an ICE, very pleasant in First.

It is impossible to plan for every contingency, but the primary aim is to communicate that there is a problem, immediately. This will reduce your workload when the mess is being sorted out and will mitigate the aggravation you have caused. In my team, I always delegate communication to one person, resolution to the rest (although that can flex). They cannot think if they are answering 'phones.

BOFH

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi everyone

Thanks for your interesting info.

Firstly, I don't blame Lufthansa for not helping, as the company had quite enough problems with cancelled flights out of Germany and assisting it's own pax.

Secondly, the reason I couldn't connect with the train (interesting info, by the way) is that from 3pm to nearly 6pm, I was shuttling backwards and forwards from T5 to T2 to T1 and then waiting in queues for 'help', most of which consisted of rather uncaring people telling me that nothing would work and I was on my own.

Although tempting to walk out of the airport at a later stage, by that time I realised I had a big problem and really needed to stick with BA so that they would be obliged to give me a letter saying that they cancelled my flight - this was my 'force majeure' get out of jail card to use with my Swiss customer so that I would not be open to consequential loss for not arriving for the workshop. It would be very difficult to say I did not use due diligence when I stuck with the airline's attempts to re-route for nearly 3 hours.

PAXBoy/BOFH, yes, I BA had let me know at say 1pm (assuming the flight was canx by then), I would have gone straight to a good travel agent and the probability of getting something sorted out would have been rather higher.

All the BA agents wanted to do was look for alternative airline routings and then send me somewhere else, BOFH's comments about doing and thinking are spot on.

Scumbag, the costs incurred are clear and documented, so the particulars of claim will easy in that respect. In terms of liability,

Remembering that this is the small claims division, where the little guy is generally cut some slack, I will quote the following from BA's general conditions...

5c) Personal information

5c1) We may use the personal information that you provide and we collect, including information about how your purchase history and how you use our services and facilities ('your personal information'), for the purposes of:

* providing you with your transportation and any related services and facilities

The exec club (your account details screen) also says

"2. We will use your data and disclose it to oneworld alliance airlines and other entities for purposes relating to your membership and travel and the provision of membership benefits, services and facilities to you. Details are contained in the Membership Terms and Conditions. By submitting this form you consent to the use and disclosure for these purposes of any sensitive data you supply (e.g. wheelchair requests and special meal preferences)."

I will argue that since the company says it may/will use personal info to (email and GSM number), the failure to send out an SMS or email advising of the cancellation is a breach of contract through negligence and failure to mitigate my losses.

I will argue as PAXBoy and BOFH have already said that such a communication could have been automated and triggered by the cancellation and that it would be reasonable for BA to do this when cancelling a flight.

If you have any better ideas, I am all ears :ok:


Likewise, the company could have proactively re-routed me and failed to do so, even though I had paid a considerable premium for my ticket.

I accept that this argument in a normal county court setting is probably rather tenuous, but in my limited experience in the small claims division, a rather more pragmatic approach is adopted.

If I lose, my costs are limited to the fee and if BA have to defend, it will cost them some time and moey, so under the circumstances I am happy to have a crack.

[crewmeal]

F3G - good luck, let us know what happens. I'm sure if you win it will open the floodgates for more 'weather' cancellation claims.

How far does one go when trying to claim back money because of an 'act of God'?

[Michael SWS]

I will argue that since the company says it may/will use personal info to (email and GSM number), the failure to send out an SMS or email advising of the cancellation is a breach of contract through negligence and failure to mitigate my losses.

I will argue as PAXBoy and BOFH have already said that such a communication could have been automated and triggered by the cancellation and that it would be reasonable for BA to do this when cancelling a flight.Failure to carry out an action that might be considered "reasonable" does not amount to a breach of contract.

[VS-LHRCSA]

Having worked in Customer Relations at BA (not for the faint hearted, especially during BA38 and the T5 opening) I'd like to offer some advice from someone on the inside. You probably won't like what you read and please don't take it out on me personally but this is how I see it:

Going legal with this will simply not work. Going by the information you've given here, you are not entitled to any compensation for a flight cancelled due to weather. Think of how many thousands of claims BA get for this type of situation. A certain percentage will, like yourself, be understandably enraged enough to take it to court. For the company, this is very much a standard legal claim for which they will have built protection for in the terms and conditions of travel that you agreed to when you made your booking - as with any other airline.

No matter how much of a case you think you have, simply put, you don't have one - from a legal perspective. By law you are not entitled to anything other than a refund of your ticket and again by law, you are not entitled to claim for any consequential losses such as missed meetings, other airline fares or train fares, etc. Believe me, there have been many times when the law has stopped me from issuing refunds and compensation for worthy cases - but I usually found a way around that by resolving the case in a different way.

My advice would be to approach this from a customer service/service failure point of view. Write directly to Willie Walsh, and include a copy of your hotel bill. Be objective and state the facts only. Include any names of who you spoke to and what they said. This will help to to further investigate your case. If you're an Executive Club member or a OneWorld partner FFP member, include your card number and level.

It will take a good few weeks for a response. You won't get Willie, himself but you will get a specialised area within customer relations, with staff who are generally more enlightened and who deal with case escalations and high yield passengers exclusively. You won't get 'compensation' in a legal sense but you may get your hotel bill refunded, a more detailed explanation, a sincere apology and possibly a good will gesture of some kind. This is what I would call a 'customer service/common sense' claim. The passenger is, strictly speaking, not entitled to it but it makes sense to show some empathy and look after your premium customers when something goes wrong.

As I said, just trying to help with honest, impartial advice from the inside. Please don't attack me after reading this - I get enough of that at work :ok:

[Final 3 Greens]

VS-LHRCSA

I'm not going to attack you, but the point that you and others are missing is this is not a weather related claim.

Also, despite what you may believe, BA (or any other party) does not control what happens in a small claims court.

The last time a large company tried this approach in a case I brought, including hiring a Bond Street lawyer to argue their case, the administrator threw the argument out, saying that he was more interested in the reasonableness of their action than the legal finer points and he made judgement in my favour in less than 10 minutes.

Larger companies tend to believe that the customer will not take action and often rely on this in behaving the way they do; I don't waste my time in vexacious litigation, but in this instance, given the claim is well under the limit and there is no compelling reason to upgrade it to a higher court, the facts are simple, no new precedent will be set (I say again, it is not a weather related claim), the I feel that the odds are reasonable.

Michael SWS

Do you understand the concept of implied terms and conditions of contract?

[Scumbag O'Riley]

If you have any better ideas, I am all ears

Purely as an intellectual exercise carried out on a basis of discussing things over a pint in a pub. Also seeing as you are going to do it anyway.

I might argue they have a duty of care to advise you ASAP by text/email so you can make other plans. Case law would be "Caparo Industries plc v Dickman" which will tell you what needs to be established. Take it from there.

Going in there telling the judge you spent loadsamoney on a business class ticket therefore they have a greater duty of care would be silly.

I don't know all the facts of the case and have no idea whether you would suceed, seems like BA did try to send you off to LH, which could well be a successful defence.

Do it properly and let us know what happened.

[Final 3 Greens]

Scumbag

Thanks for the input, hopefully I won't have to do it and BA will see sense when the company secretary receives my letter.

seems like BA did try to send you off to LH, which could well be a successful defence.

I understand you point, but the fact is that Lufthansa didn't accept me and BA made no effort to get them to , just accepted it.

Does this discharge a duty of care?

[tablelover]

F3G, the bitterness comment was not directed towards you. Apologies for not being clearer.

However the cancellation was due to Weather, that can quite easily be proven. Again check the weather reports for the day at LHR that were being given from the previous evening and actual conditions throughout the actual day. They were forecasting and subsequently giving 200m vis, this resulted in major disruption and at times very low flowrates that are legally imposed that BA have to adhere to.

Paxboy et al, I am aware the sms system exists and could have been used - but that is not my point, and perhaps my fault for not explaining fully. 4hrs notice was given, by whatever means. No one has told us when the decision to canx the flight was made. Therefore it cannot be proven that BA are at fault or should have used a different system. Furthermore BA tried to reroute the individual with another carrier and when they couldnt they rebooked the passenger on the next flight available. They followed the terms of the contract as accepted at time of purchase.

It is a shame you see any views other than yours as 'apologist' and although being an 'industry worker' it makes such views no less valid. With extensive knowledge of the industry and the mechanics of the small claims court procedures you have no case with regards losing money the next day. You contracted BA to take you from A-B, this was delayed due to weather outside of their control, yet they tried to reroute you, told you as soon as they knew it was cancelled(you have to prove otherwise - it is not a sufficient legal argument to think they did and make them prove it!) and when there was no success rebooked you at no expense, as per the terms of the contract on the next available flight. However the issue of HOTAC is perhaps the one where you have a case. Indeed you may well find in making a claim and issuing a summons to BA, that an offer may be forthcoming as it would be perceived as the cheaper option. Rather than spending office hours collating the information for their defence.

And BA have no means of putting pressure on Luftie to accept you for a flight once they have made their decision.

Good Luck with it all. But you have to have a rational approach and accept the burden on proof is on you in the small claims court.

[Final 3 Greens]

Tablelover

Appreciate your clarification.

It was the 'anger and bitterness' comment that caused me to make the 'apologist' comment.

As you did not intend that comment for me, then I withdraw my response to it.

I don't object to other's opinions, life is full of differing perspectives.

We can agree to disagree and also treat each other reasonably, as the BA T1 terminal manager will attest, as I was polite and courteous to him, as indeed he was to me.

[BOFH]

oldtora

Codeshare, huh? What a fantastic concept. What I'd love to see would be a booking from say FRA to HAJ on the LH website showing the DB movements (about twice an hour) along with the flights. Might put a few LH people out of work, unfortunately. It's not their fault that air travel is so painful now.

I think that FTG was stuck in the classic dilemma of being in a queue and seeing another move faster. Do you jump, or stay the course? Your mind's overloaded. "Oh Christ" "I've paid for it, they'll look after me" "What if?"

You know that feeling that time is being compressed? It never happens when you are doing something irksome or tedious. It's only ever when you have to resolve too many things simultaneously.

FTG strikes me as the sort of person who always has a plan B. Just speculating, but it seems that the glimmers of hope given between 1500 and 1800 prevented this from being brought into play.

If you rely on the Tube, this is a daily game :-)

BOFH

[VAFFPAX]

Paxboy, you will be astounded by how retarded some companies are, and especially in the telecomms business. I once had a massive fight with Orange because they cancelled the wrong service on my account, because they failed to notify me by SMS or letter which service was going to be cancelled.

I argued with them and told them that it was not difficult to design a system that would send text messages a week or so before disconnection which service was going to be disconnected. Did they take that on board? Take a guess. Pick a number. &c.

VS-LHRCSA has a good suggestion... if the whole situation is spelt out to BA, the amount of money lost, the amount of money paid for having to stay overnight for this issue, then you might get some money back.

S.

[strake]

F3G,

Have read this thread with interest as I have just been on the receiving end of a similar situation (with another airline) in the past day/night. As you infer, the worst part of the experience is the feeling of helplessness when no one appears to be doing anything to put matters right. This is especially frustrating when the airline is constantly telling you how you are a "top100 customer" etc etc.

The reality however, is that a short, polite note to the senior management is likely to have far more effect than trying to go legal, particularly with consequential damages which, in this country are almost impossible to achieve for this type of issue.
For what it's worth, it encourages me that for every rude, uncaring, inept, inefficient, witless jobsworth that you might just meet at a US airport check-in desk, there is someone like VS-LHRCSA who, if written to properly, will make it all better again;)

Strake (who yesterday, was seething with anger, bristling with rage and calling into question the parentage of the management of a certain airline but is now calm....very calm.....)

[Final 3 Greens]

Things changed yesterday.

It seems that my client (a largish Swiss company) also had people travelling with BA, with similar outcomes.

As a result, my sponsor said he is able to pay me for the reduced day, especially as the delegates all said I did a very good job, despite having arrived part way through their meeting and having to facilitate it without proper introductions.

He also showed me an email updating their travel policy to the effect that BA are no longer to be used when a viable alternative exists.

On my side, my fees are secure and the hotac/subsistence is covered under my insurance policy.

So the numbers no longer make this worth pursuing and a hard lesson is learned, this company will walk away from you when the chips are down, even on a premium ticket.

As far as I am now concerned British Airways will be like a pile of dog excretia in the street, you do your very best to avoid encountering it wherever possible.

I also reflect on the results of research I read recently that says major European companies have an average lifespan of 12.5 years.

This lousy organisation is well past it's sell by date.

Strake, I am pleased that your situation was resolved, as you describe my feelings exactly.

[TightSlot]

F3G - If you still decide to write in (I think you should) please be sure and let us know how this all progresses - fascinating stuff!

I have to say that the airline behavior demonstrated strikes me as somewhat kamikaze in a year such as this - still, what do I know?

[Seat62K]

Doesn't BA ever learn? It's almost as if it thinks that however badly it treats its customers, the strength of the brand means that they will return (or be replaced by others). To some extent this has been true. However, surely one of the basic tenets of business is that it's preferable to hold on to an existing customer than it is to find a new one.
I remember a few years ago there was great emphasis put on "service recovery" at BA. For a while I found the BA Miles I was given adequate compensation for things that had gone wrong. More recently the mantra has been "getting the basics right". Why does it forget these? Poor training? Staff turnover?

[Scumbag O'Riley]

It's almost as if it thinks that however badly it treats its customers, the strength of the brand means that they will returnActually I don't think the brand is that good anymore, when I talk to people about BA the responses are mainly negative.

I think BA have managed to convince 'the powers that be' that they are essential to UK PLC and so they are somewhat protected from some of the commercial realities that other UK based airlines are subject too. Since VS forced their way into LHR they have become somewhat pampered too. Of course, other countries protect their airlines as well. But while BA are permitted to essentially have monopoly powers permitted at LHR they will never have to truly compete.

What is telling is that BA have totally failed to use their position to dominate the regional loco market.

Anyway, if I was to dump an airline for one or two failures of service I would never fly anywhere. One has to be pragmatic and pay as little as possible for your ticket when you do use them.

Would have been interested in what a judge had to say about this one, the problem is there is essential information missing and only BA could provide it. I suspect that would be difficult if not impossible to achieve.

[Carnage Matey!]

What is telling is that BA have totally failed to use their position to dominate the regional loco market.

How much squealing do you think there'd have been about unfair competition if BA had tried to do that?

[Final 3 Greens]

Anyway, if I was to dump an airline for one or two failures of service I would never fly anywhere.

If only it was one or two.

This is the most serious, but ther have been quite a lot in the past 4 years, I just can't be bothered to list them.

BTW, as a frequent flyer, I cannot say 'never again', just that I will avoid the company when there is an alternative, which places the company beneath Ryanair in my potential list of carriers.

[Seat62K]

I am a more satisfied customer of Ryanair than I am of BA, partly because when I book the latter for inter-continental travel I fly Club World and, considering what I'm paying, I legitimately expect a different kind of service (expectations which, let's not forget, BA's own advertising encourages).

[Scumbag O'Riley]

How much squealing do you think there'd have been about unfair competition if BA had tried to do that?But they did try to do it, and they failed miserably. The one time they have had to complete on a level playing field they lost. Big time.

[Final 3 Greens]

expectations which, let's not forget, BA's own advertising encourages

As in "Upgrade to British Airways" - right :}

[Carnage Matey!]

But they did try to do it, and they failed miserably. The one time they have had to complete on a level playing field they lost. Big time.

How did "Go" perform?

[Final 3 Greens]

How did "Go" perform?

Flogged off to a venture capitalist, IIRC, for considerably less than it returned, when was subsequently sold on to easyJet.

How did Deutsche BA and Air Liberte perform?

[Carnage Matey!]

Flogged off to a venture capitalist, IIRC, for considerably less than it returned, when was subsequently sold on to easyJet.

Aaah the joys of spin! It returned more than BA put in to it, but that wasn't the question I asked.

How did Deutsche BA and Air Liberte perform?

Pretty dismally, but then they weren't locos and they operated outside the UK, so that's just more obfuscation.

[Final 3 Greens]

Aaah the joys of spin!

June 2001 - BA sold Go to 3i for £110M

May 2002 - easyJet acquired Go for £374M

Profit to 3i after 11 months = 240% of purchase price, nice work if you can get it.

Please re-read read my post carefully, for this is what I was saying.

Air Lib - attempt to enter the French regional market, DBA, attempt to enter the German regional market.

DBA eventually became part of Air Berlin, German loco.

Scumbag didn't limit his definition of 'regions', so although I understand these examples are a bit embarrassing, I reckon they are fair inclusions in a debate around Scumbag's assertion.

[Carnage Matey!]

The only thing embarassing is your attempt to continue slating BA by playing fast and loose with the facts.

June 2001 - BA sold Go to 3i for £110M

May 2002 - easyJet acquired Go for £374M

Profit to 3i after 11 months = 240% of purchase price, nice work if you can get it.

Nice work indeed, except BA could never get that as Easy wouldn't pay £374M to BA and BA wouldn't sell directly to Easy, so suggesting that BA could have achieved that sale price is pure wishful thinking. That is still not the point. O'Rileys assertion was that BA failed miserably in the loco market when forced to compete on a level playing field. The reality is that when BA went in on a level playing field with Go they did very well. The fact that the chose to divest themselves of the business and the sale price they achieved is irrelevant to his assertion.

Air Lib - attempt to enter the French regional market, DBA, attempt to enter the German regional market.

Regional market. Not regional loco market. Whether or not O'Riley intended to include Europe in his statement, he specifically stated 'regional loco'. Air Lib and DBA were not loco airlines, nor were they intended to compete against European locos as they did not exist at that stage. Their competitors were national full service airlines.

DBA eventually became part of Air Berlin, German loco.

What happened to DBA after BA sold it is neither here nor there. That would be rather like claiming Aer Lingus was a no-frills airline in 2001 because thats what it was after Willie Walsh left.

[Desert Diner]

O'Rileys assertion was that BA failed miserably in the loco market when forced to compete on a level playing field. The reality is that when BA went in on a level playing field with Go they did very well. The fact that the chose to divest themselves of the business and the sale price they achieved is irrelevant to his assertion.

As I recall, BA wanted to divest itself of GO because it became a sucessful competitor against BA. I think they called it something like "diluting the brand".

What they did offer the flying public was a choice. Indifferent BA service at BA prices or Indifferent BA service at LoCo prices. Guess which they prefered.

Air Lib and DBA was just BA's attempt to play on someone elses turf.

[Carnage Matey!]

Indifferent BA service at BA prices or Indifferent BA service at LoCo prices. Guess which they prefered.

Did you ever fly on Go? Or are you just jumping on the BA-bashing bandwagon because it seems like the fun thing to do?

[Desert Diner]

Did you ever fly on Go? Or are you just jumping on the BA-bashing bandwagon because it seems like the fun thing to do?

No, I've just been screwed around by BA in more ways that could be imagined. Saying that their customer service is pathetic would be a positive thing.

[tablelover]

F3G

Glad things got sorted with your client.

However could you confirm for me exactly what it is you reckon BA have done wrong here please. You initially complain about the flight being cancelled, which was out of their control and due to weather conditions affecting every carrier into LHR that day. Then that they couldnt get you onto a Luftie flight, again outside of their control. They(BA) then put you on the next flight they operate.

The only issue of contention is the HOTAC, which is confusing as I thought this was an entitlement in such a situation.

With regards the GO situation, everyone sees it as a screw up by BA(hey thats always been a fashionable view) but not seen as a screw up by EASY. They could have bought GO then for a 3rd of the price they eventually paid for it less than a year later, a loss of 240% to easyjet then surely?! And to reiterate what CM says, GO gave back substantially more than was put into it.

[Seat62K]

Go was, in my opinion, a good airline with a decent brand. And, yes, I did use them (after all, Stansted is my local airport). I did rue the day Go turned orange.
It would have made more sense for the BA "masterbrand" to have given up on any attempt to compete against "low cost" airlines - especially BA flights from Heathrow - as its cost base is so high, for it to focus its European operation on business travel and for it to have kept Go as its "no frills" arm.
This way, the confusion between BA short-haul as a "high quality/high price" operation which also happens to offer some competitively-priced (i.e., cheap) fares could have been avoided; Terminal 5 could have remained less congested for longer (with perhaps the possibility that BA's entire Heathrow operation could have been located there); and the BA group could today have a very significant presence at Stansted.
At one point, when investigating a merger with KLM, BA seemed to be thinking along similar lines, in the sense that direct flights to intercontinental destinations from London would be sold at a premium, whilst itineraries involving connecting flights from all over the UK to Amsterdam and then onward would sell for less, thus freeing up capacity at Heathrow especially.
I'll admit these aren't well thought-through ideas and that I have no particular qualification in airline economics!

[Desert Diner]

They could have bought GO then for a 3rd of the price they eventually paid for it less than a year later, a loss of 240% to easyjet then surely?!

Keep in mind that the purchase occured after Stelios left and a more "conventional" minded management (read what you want into that) was in place.

Easyjet could have developed those routes on their own at less the cost of buying Go.

[tablelover]

Desert Diner, not disputing that at all. And your post proves my point the deal could have been better done a year earlier for less money by easyjet. If said 'conventional minded management' were either in place or held more influence in Stelios' court at that time.

[13Alpha]

I read about F3G's experience with interest.

Few months back I was due to fly out of London City on a Friday. On arrival at the airport I discovered that due to a security scare the airport was closed. When it became clear a lengthy delay was likely I called the dedicated BA Silver exec club line, waited on hold for a long time, only be told "sorry sir, don't know what's happening to your LCY flight; there may be availability to EDI from LGW and LHR but we are locked out from checking".

Looked into an easyJet alternative from Luton but just I was about to book it, LCY reopened. Took my boarding pass to LCY Departures only to be told my flight was cancelled. Went downstairs but the few BA staff were overwhelmed dealing with grumpy people. Tried to book the alternative with easyJet but all flights now booked.

Plan C - DLR and tube to Kings Cross. Last train to Edinburgh gone. Walk to Euston. Last train to Glasgow gone. Call BA again. "There's a seat on the 1855 from Gatwick but you'll never make it. Best option is to go back to City and see if someone hasn't showed up a for a later flight". Back to LCY - no seats available. Having originally left for LCY at 1400 it's now 2030. Resigned to having to spend another night in London but with a long queue at the BA desk, I call their helpline again and explain the situation. They book me on the first flight out of LCY on Saturday. No mention of HOTAC, although to be fair I did not pursue with them as I had a friend's home to go to.

Now the root cause of my problems that day wasn't BA's fault, but my point is that when there's a crisis, your "status" with the airline is pretty irrelevant - it's basically every man for himself. Now I don't think that's a very smart way to deal with premium pax, but I guess BA think they can get away with it.

I've become resigned to this from BA over the years, but I can understand why others get angry about it. So F3G you have my sympathy.

13Alpha

[Desert Diner]

but I guess BA think they can get away with it

That just about sums it up.

[DutchBird-757]

F3G, would having gone through London City Airport have been an option for you? We do ZRH 4 times a day.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

What on earth have Go been brought up for? They were never a regional airline, and they don't even exist anymore. Any input they might have had in dominating the regional loco market (current tense) is surely for EZ, a competitor of BA. For an airline to survive they need to look to the future, not live on the less than remarkable achievements of the past.

The transatlantic is now pretty much level playing ground. Lets see if history repeats itself, I have every expectation that it will.

[Desert Diner]

What on earth have Go been brought up for?

The Nigel brought it up after he had no more "spin" to fling against your anti BA posts.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Well, funny as I'm not that anti BA, probably comes half way down my list of airlines I would choose to fly on, just yer average airline really.



Though it did used to be at the top ;)

[Desert Diner]

The one commonality between BA and FR is that any negative comment against these airlines will result in being accused of " being a basher"

[Final 3 Greens]

Nice work indeed, except BA could never get that as Easy wouldn't pay £374M to BA and BA wouldn't sell directly to Easy, so suggesting that BA could have achieved that sale price is pure wishful thinking.

You should really stop digging the hole.

I made a statement of fact in reply to your question "what about GO."

You accused me of spin, so I restated the facts and added a comment about 3i's 249% profit after 11 months "nice work if you can get it."

I made no suggestion that BA could have gained the higher price and IIRC the company wished to add some liquid assets to the balance sheet at the time, so were not necessarily concerned about maximising the sale price.

Time to stop being so paranoid.

[Final 3 Greens]

Tablelover

What did BA do wrong?

They did not inform, me by SMS or email of the cancellation, thus cutting down on the time available for me to re-plan - I only found out when entering the airport. unacceptable.

They did not try seriously any other choice than the LH option and the agent said he couldn't guarantee that, so it was not a proper option in my opinion

No-one really gave a sh!t, apart from the T1 duty manager, who was a decent bloke and would have helped if he could have; The staff could have at least looked as if they gave a sh!t, especially as I was impeccably polite to all of them - customers notice a lack of interest.

T5 was in chaos - low viz disruption in winter is a regular event, doesn't the company have proper disruption plans - to fill empty customer service desks, some agents untrained in re-ticketing were brought in and could only offer limited assistance, still I suppose it looks betterthan hqving empty desks if the press are around

Finally, I was dropped on my own, 1,300 miles from home, with no assistance to get a hotel room, never mind to pay for it

And this on a ticket costing a serious amount of money.

Now consider the following extract from the carriers regulations of easyJet, a loco

If your flight is cancelled as a result of extraordinary circumstances

If your flight is cancelled as a result of extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even though we took all reasonable steps , including but not limited to:

* Air Traffic Control
* Weather
* Civil unrest
* Terrorist alerts and Security alerts
* Strike Action
* Unexpected flight safety shortcomings

easyJet will not compensate you further other than providing you with one of the following options (“Re-routing and Reimbursement Options”):

You will be offered:

1. Re-routing to your final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

2. Re-routing to your final destination at later date at your convenience and subject to availability; or

3. A refund of the fare paid for the journey not made. Additionally, where relevant, we will offer a return flight to the first point of departure at the earliest available time.

In addition, you will be offered free of charge two telephone calls, or telex or fax messages or emails.

Where you choose to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity:

1. You will be provided with meals and refreshments (or vouchers) in a reasonable relation to your waiting time; and

2. If an overnight stay is required because the reasonably expected time of departure is at least the day after the time of departure previously announced, easyJet shall offer you hotel accommodation and transport between the airport and the hotel (within reason).

Do you think I will willingly use BA in the future, when it cannot provide a premium fare pax with the same level of service as a loco?

[tablelover]

As I said I dont disagree with your issues regarding HOTAC. However you continually say BA should have sent you an SMS or email, allowing you more time to replan your booking. I take it then you know exactly what time the flight was cancelled by BA, because without this information your argument falls flat I am afraid. Prove this point and you have won the discussion. Lack of SMS or email notice is irrelevant if they had only recently made the decision.

Bear in mind those 'uninterested staff' may have been shouted and screamed at by many people, before you approached, who dont understand that it isnt the company's fault if the weather is crap. And without generalizing too much who is to say they do give much of a sh!t, anymore than colleagues in T1, T4, at LGW, LTN or wherever. Watch Airline on satellite to see similar examples.

What other options did BA have available? This was their last flight of the day they cancelled, Luftie couldnt fit you on, LCY wouldnt really have been an option as being a CAT 1 airfield it wouldve been in bigger turmoil than LHR with flights all morning cancelled. Knowing this why even send you over there. Probably the same for LGW,LTN and STN being single runway and all suffering from the same met conditions. Eurostar was affected by the weather, and BA has no deals or arrangements in place to use them. Only until you can provide valid options that actually (not what you think) existed can you prove BA didnt try everything. This is not to say they couldnt have communicated this better. But again having to do this to every passenger would create bigger delays, and sometimes one assumes others outside of aviation would understand the complexities of such occasions. Especially seasoned travellers.They should have put you in a hotel as they rebooked you for the first available flight the following day. I dont know why they didnt or why you didnt push them on the subject as it is your right. But this is the only place they fall down.

There are as many bad stories about BA as there are EASY, Ryanair, Luftie, AF, KLM etc etc. People rarely come on here or any forum to pass comment on something well done. So yes I do think you will use BA again in the future, albeit not for awhile. Its network is so convienient to use and BA will get away with it as every other company does. Which is a somewhat depressing point to end with but a fact.

[Desert Diner]

One of my worst BA Experiences was with a trip from BAH to NCE booked through a travel agent in Saudi Arabia some years ago. Now, some of the fault was mine for not checking every minute detail, and some of the fault goes to the travel agent for booking the tickets.

What happened was that the travel agent booked BAH-LHR on BA and LHR-NCE on a code share ticket operated on BA metal (it was a BA flight). I paid BA for the tickets and BA issued the ticket, so I thought all was fine.

Flight to LHR was okay, but when we went to check in for NCE, no booking. How can that be, I had the ticket coupons in hand:

BA: well Mr. DD the system checked that you were booked on a code share and you did not originate on a code share so it deleted your booking.

DD: But you issued me the ticket and already flew us through half of the journey on a BA plane

BA: Sorry Mr. DD, but your travel agent should have really known better.

DD: But my travel agent booked and paid and obtained the tickets from your local agents.

BA: I am sorry but the system deleted your booking because it was a code share. Besides they were discounted tickets, so if you wanted better service you should have not gotten the discount tickets (This last statement just blew me away.) Good day Mr.DD. Next please.

It took me over an hour to get someone in authority who had the intelligence to realize that they had to honor my tickets as they were issued by BA.

I have flown BA about half a dozen times in the past 10 years, only because they have a really good deal going, and have always had a similar experience with them each time.

They let you know that you are only tolerated if you travel economy with them.

Therefore, when I go on business, I make sure to use anyone other than BA.

BA Bashing my a:mad:, I'm just another satisfied BA customer.:ouch:

[Final 3 Greens]

Tablelover

I give up.

You can think whatever you like, it's your opinion as mine is mine.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

However you continually say BA should have sent you an SMS or email, allowing you more time to replan your booking. I take it then you know exactly what time the flight was cancelled by BA, because without this information your argument falls flat I am afraid. Prove this point and you have won the discussion. Lack of SMS or email notice is irrelevant if they had only recently made the decision.

F3G,

Did you ever receive an SMS/Email from BA telling you the flight had been cancelled?

[PAXboy]

Seat 62K... for it to focus its European operation on business travel and for it to have kept Go as its "no frills" arm.Now you are trying to talk sense! You would not get the whole domestic division being transferred over to a new LCC division. The redundancy costs would be enormous and you would not get the remaining salaries down to the levels you need. Lastly, the management would not be facing in the right direction.GO and EZ succeeded as their mgmt were expanding UP from zero, not DOWN from 100%.

Neither can you shut down the short haul division and simply sell it off to an LCC due to entrenched positions of staff, unions and management. This problem has been looked at by every major legacy carrier in the world and no one has found the golden solution. I won't bore you with the options tried, they are all in PPRuNe somewhere!

Seat 62KDoesn't BA ever learn?No and more importantly, I suggest that it cannot. It is too old a company. BA is (almost certainly) in the last phase of it's life. Look at Woolworths. It died aged 99 but it's last ten years have been pure decline. There are other large and notable companies all around the world who are now in their last phase, and I won't name the ones that I think are going sooner rather than later. Many of them emerged from the post Depression and War but will not survive much longer.

(Pardon the short lesson in Economics 1.01)
That is just the natural span of a company and BA has been through start up; Imperial growth; the war; BOAC; enforced merger with BEA; nationalisation; BA; bought up countless other airlines and routes to gain supremecy (before, during and after nationalisation); route expansion and leading service.

Now it is in contracting mode. In order to maintain profits, it has to cut service levels, which reduce sales and the spiral begins. It tries to take over other companies and is constantly rebuffed/fails. It sells off the domestic network (GO and later to FlyBe) to desperately cut costs and maintain good figures (Figures but not Service!) then it has to do it's best to abandon pension commitments and all the other trappings of an old company. All the while they diligently continue to tell the world how brilliant they are - even though everyone knows that they are in trouble.

The real sadness is that the people on the front line are, for the most, STILL fabulous. I would place myself on a BA a/c any minute of the day in preference to countless others. There is the old line, "I can handle the competition, but it's my management ..." To conclude, the modern manager has a real problem that they have an old company that is just not going to be able to respond the way that GO could. EVERY company must come to the natural end of it's life and, one day, VS and even the mighty Luftie will be facing this too.

It's not nice watching an old friend die but BA is in it's last phase of life. How long that phase will be, I would not like to say.
[expecting incoming from a number of folks]

[Final 3 Greens]

Scumbag

Did you ever receive an SMS/Email from BA telling you the flight had been cancelled?

No.

I have my own domain and mail server and got the company who manage that to check the server logs. The company did send me a preflight services email at -7 days :ugh:

I am awaiting a reply from my mobile telephone company, having asked them for this before the situation changed.

[13Alpha]

However you continually say BA should have sent you an SMS or email, allowing you more time to replan your booking. I take it then you know exactly what time the flight was cancelled by BA, because without this information your argument falls flat I am afraid. Prove this point and you have won the discussion. Lack of SMS or email notice is irrelevant if they had only recently made the decision.


On one occasion late last year I found out about a BA cancelled flight by chance on PPRUNE (thanks BAladdy) the night before I was due to travel. No SMS from the company, no email, no nothing. On that occasion I called the BA complaints people and they gave me 10000 air miles as an apology. In spite of having experienced many delays and several cancellations on BA flights, and religiously entering my mobile number with every booking, I've NEVER had a text from BA in advance informing me of a problem.

If BA are unable or unwilling to operate the technology - they should stop advertising it.

So if I were a betting man I would say BA knew about the cancellation in sufficient time to inform F3G and the other passengers, and had the infrastructure available to inform them but, whether through lack of personnel, training or organisation failed to do so. Saying that Heathrow was in chaos due to the fog is NO excuse. It's foggy every winter and BA seems unable to cope EVERY time.

BA seems to prefer to spend their customer service dollars compensating after failures, rather than investing upfront to avoid them. Perhaps this is just another symptom of a company in long-term decline, as PAXboy says.

13Alpha

[tablelover]

F3G, Give up? Only asking you some simple questions matey.

Do you know what time BA cancelled the flight? And what evidence do you have to support this?

What other options were available that BA ignored?

These will be the questions you will have to provide answers to in a Small Claims court to prove your case not BA. And having raised this issue here, is surely fair game to be asked by those like myself is it not?

[tablelover]

13Alpha, cant and wouldnt dream of defending BA's at times woeful customer service when provided with facts such as yours. However F3G has mentionned how bad he was treated in this situation and that he will be taking BA to the small claims court. I am merely asking what his specific facts are and what BA should have done. Thinking BA knew in sufficient time to help replan itineries is not going to be effective in any case brought in the legal arena.

The weather on the day led to multiple delays and cancellations and was due to weather. All airlines and airports in the south east of the UK were badly hit. As you say Heathrow is badly hit by fog every winter, but what can BA do? It cannot clear the fog and is not responsible for the air traffic restrictions imposed. It is in fact the only company afaik equipped and allowed to operate MLS approaches into LHR thus improving flowrate. Bear in mind shorthaul flights must be cancelled when such restrictions are inplace as Longhaul aircraft are already on their way back and would incur huge costs if diverted. Shorthaul is (should) be easier to rearrange.

Yes the sms/email technology should be used but what effect (actual not supposed) would it have had in this instance?

Aint gonna get into the arguments of BA being in decline and suggestions it isnt likely to survive. Suffice to say evidence suggests otherwise but that is for another thread.....

[Desert Diner]

These will be the questions you will have to provide answers to in a Small Claims court to prove your case not BA. And having raised this issue here, is surely fair game to be asked by those like myself is it not?

Tablelover, as much as you seem to be a loyal employee and seem to want to defend BA to the bitter end, it is this exact attitude that is the center of BA's customer service malaise.

You had a customer who you inconvenienced by canceling his flight and preventing him from being able to perform his business at an appointed time. At minimum you should be appologetic to him. Let him go to small claims court if he wishes, you have plenty of soliciters to look after BA's interest, but instead you choose to taunt him. You are being adverserial against your customer, a customer that for one reason or another you failed to serve.

Do you think that this is the tone that F3G took with his customers when he tried to salvage the assignment after you failed to deliver him on the agreed upon time?

Fligth delays/cancelations, weather related or not, are common and accepted as part of the mystique of modern day travel. That is not what drives customers away. Adversarial attitudes like yours from the staff is what leaves a bad taste in the mouths of customers and drives them away.

Aint gonna get into the arguments of BA being in decline and suggestions it isnt likely to survive. Suffice to say evidence suggests otherwise but that is for another thread.....

It is in decline, it is just that you people can't see that as you are to busy arguing with your customers.

[Final 3 Greens]

PAXboy

I agree with your analysis about BA being in the declining phase of life.

However, I disagree about the 'age' of the business.

BA, in it's current incarnation, really started when privatised in 1987 and so is now 22 years old.

True, it took on existing employees and some 'Spanish' practices and other legacy issues, but the clock started to tick for real when King/Thatcher launched it.

You mention Lufthansa and I reflect that the airline was heavily involved in setting up the highly successful Star Alliance, as well as acquiring Swiss to build share and focus.

Air France (not private sector, but still potentially profit generating) acquired KLM.

What has BA achieved in the same period of time? The airline does not seem able to find a consolidation partner, despite several attempts and there must be a risk of marginalisation.

I see a carrier, with a long haul fleet that is growing old, under attack on it's profitable North American routes at the same time the world is entering a sharp economic downturn.

It operates mainly from an airport that does not seem to be able to cope well with disruption and according to L337 on this thread (who I think may work for BA) has no influence over several aspects of service delivery provided by it's landlord, even though it is the sole user of Terminal 5.

At the moment, it ain't looking good from where I am sitting.

[Carnage Matey!]

The Nigel brought it up after he had no more "spin" to fling against your anti BA posts.

I think you'll find O'R said BAs attempt at being a regional loco was a miserable failure. Given that BAs only attempt at being a regional loco was Go it means that either O'R was referring to Go or he's gotten confused about his airline business models and believes that BACX was an attempt at a regional loco, which it was not. But he surely can't have meant BACX as he was talking about a level playing field, which any comparison between BACX and Easyjet would show was not the case.

Incidentally Desert Diner, I noticed in response to my question that you never actually flew on Go but were quite prepared to dismiss their service based on, well, no experience of it whatsoever. I think we'll all keep that in mind when assessing the credibility of your posts.

Frankly we've all heard the "BA is in decline" mantra chanted for at least the last decade, with various doom sayers such as yourself predicting BAs immininent collapse after 9/11, the foot and mouth outbreak and all the other various crises. Strangely enough the company is still here and is going from strength to strength. The rumours of BAs demise have been greatly exaggerated.

[Final 3 Greens]

Desert Diner

Do you think that this is the tone that F3G took with his customers when he tried to salvage the assignment after you failed to deliver him on the agreed upon time?

:ok::}:ok:

Strangely enough, I asked them one simple question "what do I have to do to make this right?"

[Conan The Barber]

Is it tall poppy syndrome or just small people feeling ever so slighted.

[Desert Diner]

I think we'll all keep that in mind when assessing the credibility of your posts.


I never had the pleasure of flying GO, I have flown on plenty of other LoCo's however. But that is neither here nor there. The only thing you seem to keep in mind when assessing the credibility of a poster is wheter he is pro or anti BA. I think you need to be more concerned about your credibility when jumping to the defence of your employer. People tend to be intelligent enough to see beyond the smoke.

Frankly we've all heard the "BA is in decline" mantra chanted for at least the last decade, with various doom sayers such as yourself predicting BAs immininent collapse after 9/11, the foot and mouth outbreak and all the other various crises.


I am not a "doom sayer", I couldn't give a toss about you, BA or the future of BA's. If you can keep enough satisfied customers flying with you then you may have a future. Unfortunately your attitude seems to handicap that future.


Strangely enough the company is still here and is going from strength to strength. The rumours of BAs demise have been greatly exaggerated.

This blinkered statement of yours is the crux of BA's problem. It continues to go because it effectively has no competition from London to the rest of the world. Would you still have that smug belief if Virgin or BMI had the same sized long haul fleet?

[13Alpha]

As you say Heathrow is badly hit by fog every winter, but what can BA do?


It could:
- spend some management time on those happy fog-free summer days planning its response to disruption caused by fog / security scares / other "unexpected" events.
- invest sufficiently in its customer service infrastructure, resources and training to be able to communicate well with its customers when problems do arise
- ensure its contingency planning covers not just the logistics of getting its planes and crews back to the right places to restart "normal service" but getting passengers and their luggage to their destinations too, and taking care of them in the process.

These are all things BA could do. Evidently it's chosen that the return on this kind of investment is too small.

The short-term impact of this decision on its customers (and on its long-suffering front-line staff) is clear every winter. Whether it turns out to be a good long-term business decision remains to be seen.

13Alpha

[Carnage Matey!]

I never had the pleasure of flying GO, I have flown on plenty of other LoCo's however. But that is neither here nor there.

Au contraire. You stated that Go offered people 'indifferent BA service', yet you'd never flown them to experience said service. How can you realistically expect that to be a credible statement?

This blinkered statement of yours is the crux of BA's problem. It continues to go because it effectively has no competition from London to the rest of the world. Would you still have that smug belief if Virgin or BMI had the same sized long haul fleet?

No competition? How much competition does Lufthansa have from Frankfurt to the rest of the world? Air France from Paris? KLM from Amsterdam? How many of those three have a large domestic long haul carrier operating in competition with them? Virgin has 38 long haul aircraft. That's almost as many as KLM! It may give you comfort to rely on generalisations and cliches but the reality is that BA operates in the single most competitive aviation market in Europe, with competition on almost every long haul service out of Heathrow and cut-throat competition on short haul routes from other European majors (some state funded) and countless low cost airlines. BA has survived through a combination of competitive pricing, product differentiation and customer service, not through some cosy stranglehold on LHR. That won't tie in with your simplistic views on the global aviation industry but thats the reality.

[tablelover]

I aint posting here as a BA employee. Indeed I am not posting trying to save F3G's custom that is for people within those departments that deal with that matter. I am merely posting as a private individual. It is a shame the flight was cancelled, but not BA's fault and he was rebooked on the next available flight when all other options were seemingly looked at. Companies and businesses do not throw compensation around if there is a way to avoid it and without proof of any wrongdoing - which would appear the case here! This is not exclusive to BA.

It is a shame you see my requests to simple questions as taunting F3G. He has made a statement and a desire to take BA to the small claims court, I am merely asking on what legal basis and what evidence he has to support his claims. He has chosen not to respond and that has to be seen as telling. Continually asking someone to back up their claims and views is surely something used in business on a daily basis. If you do not wish to have your posts questionned this aint the place for you.

13 ALPHA, yes BA could perhaps do more. Although upgrading the majority of the airbus fleet with MLS, constant talks with those that decide the flowrates, and actually putting passengers on the next available flight to their destination is surely a good start no? Indeed disruption this winter has been far better handled by BA, the inhouse statistics prove this. But in this case, what did they do wrong? apart from not offering HOTAC?!

Whilst it would appear the thread started proclaiming terrible treatment at the hands of BA no evidence or suggestions have been made that are based on the facts of the situation. And now without the ability to provide this it denigrates into playground ranting about the company teetering on the edge. Again the facts speak very differently but that would just ruin the ranting.:ugh:

[Desert Diner]

A lot of CM drivel

I won't even bother responding to it as it will be pointless. Everyone has their own opinions about BA, including the blinkered.


BA has survived through a combination of competitive pricing, product differentiation and customer service, not through some cosy stranglehold on LHR. That won't tie in with your simplistic views on the global aviation industry but thats the reality.

You're joking, right?

The only simplistic views seem to be yours, but whats the point, you need an open mind to argue. Yours seem to have been closed and locked with a shiny BA lock.

Best of luck in your future. I mean it.

[Desert Diner]

Continually asking someone to back up their claims and views is surely something used in business on a daily basis. If you do not wish to have your posts questionned this aint the place for you.


Where you're business is based on the return custom of your passengers, you should not alienate them. This is something that appears to have been lost on BA. Attack me, call it a my rant, it will still not hide the lack of respect on your part as a BA employee.

Whilst it would appear the thread started proclaiming terrible treatment at the hands of BA no evidence or suggestions have been made that are based on the facts of the situation. And now without the ability to provide this it denigrates into playground ranting about the company teetering on the edge. Again the facts speak very differently but that would just ruin the ranting.

The only ones that said anything about BA's demise appear to be it's defenders on this thread. What does that say?

You demand evidence from your detractors, you call your detractors children!

Please note that any detractors/ranters/disatisfied customers only represent themselves, you on the other hand represent BA (no matter how you deny it). It does not speak well of you or your company.