IFR cruising altitude below LSALT in day VMC

[GBO]

Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart?

G'day all. Just a little confused by the above question. :confused:

Reading CAR 178 and Jepps para 3.6.6 on page AU-806 Air Traffic Control section, the answer would be YES.:ok:

But reading Jepps para 1.6 on page AU-15 Terminal section and Jepps para 3.16 on page AU-23 Terminal section, I cannot conduct a Visual Approach from an altitude below LSALT, thus I must climb to LSALT, making the answer NO.:=

Thoughts?

[Gundog01]

Use your common sense

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

If you are visual by day & thus can ensure your own terrain separation, you can get to the circling area however you please!

To put the answer more into the context that I think you were hoping for; you could continue to a point where the critical obstacle has been passed and revise your LSALT so that it is sufficiently lower, or alternatively, continue until you are close enough to the destination such that you are above the appropriate MSA/DME/GPS step as per para 3.16. Either of these should enable you to conduct a visual approach at most fields IAW the above para.

Hope that helps. ;)

[En-Rooter]

Use your common sense

:D:D:D:D:D :ok:

[roger_ramjet]

if you're OCTA and visual by day then all you ultimately need to do is meet the VFR height requirements, i.e. 500ft AGL or 1000ft over populated places, racecourses and all that hoo hah. A good example would be flying over some high terrain in an aircraft without ice protection and getting as low as possible (visually) to avoid the freezing level.

On a good day you can often see a metro freighter swing by Byron Bay lighthouse at 500ft going from Ballina to the Gold Coast. Just ask ATC for amended tracking "500ft over water" and they'll tell you "no IFR traffic, contact GC tower for a clearance at x DME." Just keep an eye out for those kite surfers!

[Monopole]

Jepps para 1.6 on page AU-15 Terminal section GBO, have a look at the title at the top of the page....

INSTRUMENT APPROACH/TAKEOFF PROCEDURERS

and Jepps para 3.16 on page AU-23 Terminal section and again, read it carefully.....

Subject to the requirements of visual circling, missed approach and visual segments paragraphs above, the pilot need not commence or may discontinue the approved instrument procedure to that aerodrome blah blah blah.........

neither of the above two refer to what you are eluding to doing....

and if you are wondering about the remark of a 'visual segment' in the above, it only refers to a visual segment that is part of a published instrument approach. Not tracking in VMC. You will find that in Terminal AU-23 Para 3.15 (right above where you are getting yourself confused)

[Angle of Attack]

The Visual Approach requirement from LSALT assumes you have descended in IMC, either way unless you have to go IFR just go VFR, if IFR is required then I would say its no problem if you have VMC conditions. Sometimes you need to take all the regulations into account but at the same time act sensibly, if it still exists! hehe oh yeah someone said common sense already! :ok: Unfortunately in our current society common sense gets commonly lost in a plethora of Certain Regulatory Authority Procedures. Otherwise known as CRAP!:ugh:

[Howard Hughes]

Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart?
You can and you should, whenever the weather conditions permit!

You need to take timeout sometimes to take in the view!:ok:

[Gundog01]

GBO

I possibly could have been more constructive in my first post. I am an AIP man myself,

ENR 11.6.5 Minimum Altitude requirements. During the conduct of a visual approach, a pilot must descend as necessary to:
a. by day:
(1) for an IFR flight, remain not less than 500ft above the lower limit of the CTA (not applicable)
(2) for IFR and VFR flights, operate not below the lowest altitude permissible for VFR flight (CAR 157)

Therefore the only requirement when OCTA (as stated by roger ramjet) is VFR height (500 or 1000) until circling area, or 5nm aligned (7 for an ILS) blah blah blah.....

[MrApproach]

The question is: Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart? :confused:

My question is: How can you fly under the IFR below the LSALT between two airports 40nm apart?

I can understand it if you are a P3 Orion with a search radar and two navigators intending to fly over the ocean but needing to leave Edinburgh in the pouring rain and arrive in Townsville in a thunderstorm, but flying from WoopWoop1 to WoopWoop2.....I don't get it.

[Hasselhof]

My question is: How can you fly under the IFR below the LSALT between two airports 40nm apart?

Umm... by remaining in VMC? IFR is a set of rules, not met conditions. It just lets you fly through IMC as well as VMC.

[Icarus53]

I think the point being made here is if you are below LSAlt (and not complying with a visual departure or approach procedure as specified in Term), then you are by definition flying under the Visual Flight Rules (which require VMC). You are no longer flying under the Instrument Flight Rules, as those rules require you to be above a LSAlt.

In the 40 nm example you are covered by the fact that you can descent below LSAlt within 30nm of an aerodrome and can therefore be considered to be conducting visual departure/arrival under the IFR.

If you're IFR - you have to fly according to the IFR. If you want to admire the view or get a bit lower, then by definition your are flying under the VFR.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Is that like IFR 'Category'
and VFR 'Procedures'?

[Gundog01]

You are no longer flying under the Instrument Flight Rules, as those rules require you to be above a LSAlt.

Since when must you be above LSALT to operate under the IFR?? Never heard of this. Have you got a reference in AIP??

We (Mil) regularly operate IFR at 250ft AGL without any problems. Reporting Scheds for SARWATCH and stick to your flight plan. Although this might be a special Mil exception.

[AussieNick]

i;d say that is a special MIL procedure.

IFR below LSALT in VMC is fine, you just need to maintain VMC min heights eg 500ft agl of 1000ft agl over populated areas

[leg man]

Jepp Climb and Cruise 3.6.6

An aircraft must not be flown under the IFR lower than the published lowest safe altitude .................blah blah ,or except during VMC by day (CAR 178 refers).

All you need to do is tell ATC your tracking point A to point B visual. SAR watch trafic etc will still be provided.

[PLovett]

Quote:
Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart?

You can and you should, whenever the weather conditions permit!

You need to take timeout sometimes to take in the view!

I have. :ok:

For fecks sake guys, what is so difficult here? Why must we reduce a simple question to something worthy of a High Court appeal?

Every now and again I have a clinic run that goes to two communities that are 23nm apart. The whole flight is done on an IFR plan, but the departure report (through Flightwatch on HF :ugh:) advises that the flight will be proceeding visually at a VFR altitude. All other radio calls are as for an IFR flight. Simple adaptation to avoid an unwanted climb to altitude. :ok:

[hoss]

let me guess, NBR-MRZ and your a qantaslink trainee/cadet?

was i correct?

anyway the answer is yes, unless the FAM has changed. have fun at A020.

:)

[BOK_]

From the AIP's (GEN section):

An aircraft must not be flown under the IFR, lower than the
published lowest safe altitude or the lowest safe altitude calculated
in accordance with this section, except when being assigned
levels in accordance with ATS surveillance service terrain
clearance procedures or when being flown in accordance with a
published DME arrival, instrument approach or holding procedure,
or except when necessary during climb after departure from an
aerodrome, or except during VMC by day (CAR 178 refers).

Therefore in your example GBO you can fly below LSALT.


BOK

[Gundog01]

Legman/BOK

Was aware that obviuosly IMC/night you must be above an LSALT/DME/GPS step, etc for IFR when IMC.

Me thinks Icarus53 didn't RTFQ.

You are no longer flying under the Instrument Flight Rules, as those rules require you to be above a LSAlt.


Which clearly asked about the day VMC case.

[Icarus53]

Me thinks Icarus53 didn't RTFQ.

Acutally it was a case of not RTFJ - my Jepps are at work and I hastily decided to chuck in my two cents, which have since depreciated markedly.:ouch:

Time to get back to the books!:8

[43Inches]

AIP ENR 1.5 (Jep Terminal section) only applies to Holding, Instrument Approach and Departure procedures.

The visual approach requirement listed in ENR 1.5 describes a situation in which an aircraft is not in VMC but allows a visual based approach. The aircraft is clear of cloud but may not have minimum VMC visibility or distance from cloud requirements and therefor is still in IMC.

If an IFR aircraft is in VMC by day it may operate at any appropriate IFR cruise level, below LSALT/MSA if it wishes. It still operates to IFR procedures, which if there is no stress of weather means normal Low Flying rules (CAR 157) and circuit joining procedures. The only time it need be operated to a VFR procedure is if navigating by visual reference to ground or water (which is perfectly legal for an IFR aircraft to do in VMC) then it must apply the position fixing requirements as required (ENR 1.1 19).

[slow n low]

Gents, whilst we are on the subject can anyone point me to the reference which proves I can descend below the route LSALT once I have fixed myself past a critical obstacle en route? (The IFR case not the night VFR case) My thoughts are that if I draw the splay on a topo map, calculate the LSALT IAW gen 3.3 then re calculate it without the obsticle (ie I have positively fixed myself past it), that would then be my new LSALT for the remainder of the route :confused: It makes sense and could give you an operational advantage but I just can't find a bloody reference to confirm my thoughts. Lets also say it's not day VMC either.

cheers

[43Inches]

There is no such rule under australian regulations in reference to IFR, NVFR has an option to replan LSALTS when visually passed critical obstacles in flight (AIP GEN 3.3/3.10), IFR may not. The LSALT is valid for the route segment, if one is published it must be used, if not than one must be calculated fron point to point (segment) using the approved method.

In preflight planning you could vary your flight path to approach over lower terrain and specify fixes, calculate segment LSALTS and so on. The fixes must comply with IFR navigation & position fixing requirements.

Again CAR 178 is quite clear regarding IFR minimum altitude requirements.

[Gundog01]

slow n low

You could just 'invent' a point (radial and range or GPS position) en route and abeam said obstacle and begin calculating a new LSALT splay from this point. Just mark the point of your flight plan, report at it as required, and once through that point (visual, GPS or DME range/bearing) the new LSALT is valid.

[roger_ramjet]

My thinking process when learning and applying IFR height requirements has always been "you need an excuse to be where you are" (in altitude).
So anywhere along your flight you should be able to ask yourself "am I allowed to be here" and the answer hopefully will be something like:
- yes I'm above the route LSALT, or
- yes I'm established within 25nm and above the MSA,or
- yes I'm within the circling area, or
- yes I'm above the relevant DME step (also handy to apply in reverse on departure)
- etc etc
If you can't think of an excuse straight away then you had better be in day VMC which is your last option. There are no loopholes in IFR requirements, smarter people than us would have found them by now and punched themselves into a hill somewhere.

[slow n low]

Thanks all, just getting prep in for when the QFI plays the "what if" game :bored: (damn instructors...:ouch:) The intermediate point sounds like a fair and valid option

Cheers

[MrApproach]

For the military gent earlier in the post - IFR is a civilian concept adopted by the military but subject to military adjustments.

If you fly below the LSALT in peacetime then I'm sure it is only because your military airplane has a navigation system capable of much finer tolerances that the average C402 in "beacon crawl" mode. I'm thinking F111 with TFR and P3 with search radar. These airplanes are IFR for flight planning purposes but how they fly is authorized by the RAAF not CASA. During wartime I'm sure prosecuting the mission would take precedence over weather conditions but once again you're not flying spitfires and B17's anymore.

Civilian pilots always fly visually (not VFR) on departure even if it is only the 300 metres visibility dispensation they and the aircraft have; and unless they are CAT 3C qualified always finish the flight with at a minimum view of the runway from 200 feet and 550 metres! A visual approach is defined as an IFR procedure to get around separation and procedure change issues but you are still flying below the LSALT using your eyeballs for navigation. A visual departure can be conducted by day in VMC, but not at night.

To go back to the original question. There is nothing to stop our pprune colleague from departing IFR, flying visually en-route then recovering from above the LSALT on an instrument approach. But if he flies visually on departure, visually en-route and visually on arrival and landing, at no stage has he flown under the IFR even if he puts it on his flight plan.

[Gundog01]

Mr Approach


But if he flies visually on departure, visually en-route and visually on arrival and landing, at no stage has he flown under the IFR even if he puts it on his flight plan.


So by your reckoning a RPT flight flown entirely visually on departure, visually en-route and visually on arrival and landing would not have operated under the IFR? I think not. IFR is a set of procedures not a flight condition.

Also operating at low level IFR requires no extra kit if done visually:ok:. Still IFR but VMC

[Dragun]

But if he flies visually on departure, visually en-route and visually on arrival and landing, at no stage has he flown under the IFR even if he puts it on his flight plan.

That statement really couldn't be any more blatantly wrong and shows a complete lack of understanding of either of the two sets of flight rules (NOT met conditions) and therefore probably most of the AIP/Jepp.

[Capt Fathom]

I'm glad I don't fly 40nm sectors! :E

And where has GBO gone? Hope he is OK!

[GBO]

Sorry for the late reply. Been away on a charter.

Now, it appears that the consensus of opinion, as well as my view, is that, it IS permissible to cruise below LSALT in day VMC when operating IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart.

To diverge slightly and without knowing all the particular RPT/Company procedures, but when my mates join the airlines, they say that when cleared to descend into a non towered aerodrome, say Dubbo, even on a "blue sky" day, that they must set LSALT in the Altitude Selector and wait until 30 NM before setting circuit altitude.
Why can't they set circuit altitude in the first place?

Anyone know?

[Jabawocky]

Why can't they set circuit altitude in the first place?

Coz they may not be actually looking outside anyway.....and smack into something! :E

[bb744]

Years ago I was taught that you could submit an IFR plan and on any particular leg, if you wanted to, you could in the remarks on the right of the plan nominate VFR for that leg, thus fly a VFR leg on an IFR plan. Dd it many times, especially on a last short leg to get home. Not that hard really. Or you could, in flight, just cancel IFR and fly the last bit visual. Again not hard.

[43Inches]

A flight is either IFR or VFR, the pilot must nominate which rules he is undertaking as among other things the SAR and Traffic alerting are completely different. It is possible to show on a plan notification a change to VFR at a point enroute. However this then makes the plan and flight from this point VFR only, this is usually done to avoid IFR alternate requirements.

Setting LSALT/MSA on descent is just an SOP which is done as a routine to avoid descent in IMC below a critical altitude (do it all the time and you don't forget when it counts). It is possible and happens often on certain short routes that IFR RPT aircraft may fly below route LSALT during the day in good weather (VMC).

As has been stated many times before IFR = Instrument Flight Rules, a pilot flying on an IFR plan in VMC is still operating under the IFR. The pilot does not need to look at his insturments at all in VMC, navigation could be solely with reference to a WAC/VTC and ground features and it would still be under the IFR and legal in VMC.

[Capt Fathom]

bb744,

You could do that, in the GOD's. Not so sure what happens now?

Just submit an IFR flightplan, and nominate VFR or NVMC procedures for certain legs!

Eg. Before there were navaids at YBMC, you would submit an IFR plan. But you would plan VFR Procedures from Nambour VOR (being the last available navaid) to Maroochy airport. That way, when you became visual, you didn't have to gin around at the LSALT!

In the example GBO gives, you could submit an IFR plan, an nominate VFR procedures for the leg out and back!

How do I remember that sh!t ? :hmm:

[Hasselhof]

I don't get this "nomintate a leg VFR proceedures" thing. If you're IFR you're IFR. If you're IFR and you want to maintain flight in VMC then more power to you. Better still if you're in VMC go crazy and fly at whatever level you want below LSALT. You'll still be on full reporting but if you're in class G then its not like they can stop you. The only time I'd choose to downgrade from IFR to VFR is if I was in VMC and it would significantly reduce my workload by dropping to VFR and getting rid of full reporting. You'll no longer have SARWATCH but, again, just submit a VFR SARTIME when you downgrade.

[Dragun]

VFR also saves a bundle on airways charges over a while so you'll find a lot of employers prefer to fly their aircraft VFR if the weather and regs allow.

[desmotronic]

lots of "pilots" here never arrived at a gaap in day vmc on an ifr plan

[Jabawocky]

Good one desmo :ok:

Lucky for Forkie, I was on board the day he wanted IFR into YPJT......... he was mortified when he got ditched out of the system and had to VFR it to the reporting point! :E

I had the trusty VTC out............. and I think he actually enjoyed it after that! Red Bull things, training RFDS........lost count of the number in the circuits at the time!

J:}