View Full Version : Atlas confirms 49% purchase of Global Supply Systems

12th Apr 2001, 12:41
Reuters reports:

"Atlas Air Inc has acquired 49 percent of a new UK-based cargo airline, Global Supply Systems Ltd, and British Airways World Cargo will be its first customer, an Atlas spokeswoman said Thursday. Terms of the transaction were not disclosed.

John Porter, a UK businessman, will own 51 percent of the airline and the U.S-based, Atlas Air the remaining 49 percent, said Vicki Foster, an Atlas spokeswoman.

Initially, the company will provide ACMI leases - aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance - of Boeing 747 freighters to airlines in the UK, Foster said.

The new airline's initial customer will be British Airways, which will wet-lease two 747-400s under a multi-year agreement.

Atlas will transfer its two existing wet-lease (which cover aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance) contracts with BA to the new airline, Global Supply Systems Limited.

Global plans to dry lease its first two 747-400 aircraft from Atlas.

Global plans to begin operations out of London's Stansted Airport in autumn 2001, Foster said.

Porter will provide the venture with start-up equity and his expertise. Atlas will add its start-up equity and its operating and commercial expertise, Foster said.

"Atlas Air has a history of anticipating market trends, and we believe that the demand for low-cost heavy airfreight capacity in the UK will continue to grow,'' Richard Shuyler, Atlas' chief executive officer, said in a statement.

The investment positions Atlas to capitalize on the UK growth "while adapting to the changing regulatory environment in the UK,'' Shuyler said.

Atlas, based in Purchase, New York, operates 37 747 freighters, making it the world's largest operator of 747 freighter aircraft.

Atlas is the third-largest operator of freighter aircraft in the world, behind FedEx and United Parcel Service."

12th Apr 2001, 15:57
well aacs boys....still in "the dark"?. looks like atlas is outsourcing your jobs too! and all this from aamt just to break up the alpa drive...is it really worth it? for two aircraft...at the expense of so many people? mc's wish, to never sign a union contract, will be realized, at the cost of so many crew and their jobs.....for a stinking ba contract...!!! go figure....and it won't stop there....martinaire next...then..the world!!!!!!!

12th Apr 2001, 18:09

I think you have the wrong idea about GSS replacing AACS. The GSS crews will fly the G registered aircraft, while the AACS crews will still fly the N registered aircraft on contracts all over the world to include the Martinaire contract. AACS will continue to grow and the crews will be "based" all over the world as their personal contracts allows.

Also, you missed the “dry lease” comment in the press release. You all have said that MC was a smart guy and I think he was too. If he in fact said that he would never sign a contract with a union, then I think he was smart enough to figure a way not to. If I were a mainline guy, I’d be asking myself if unionizing was worth the price of losing my job.......

[This message has been edited by Box_Mover (edited 12 April 2001).]

12th Apr 2001, 18:38
yep...the battle is worth it....always has been, always will be.....the dry lease thing is a problem...for everyone....the gss birds will now be able to operate into the states...from everywhere....tpe-anc,stn-jfk,mxp-jfk etc etc...aacs crews will have to decide between going over to gss or possibly not being employed when aacs is done away with....sheer greed from the school of lorenzo, as taught to the likes of "shoes", et. al. the "southwest of the cargo industry"....isn't that what mc said so many times long ago....my ass! maybe he should of taken a lesson from herb instead of frank..atlas could of been the best airline to have worked for,the potential is still there...instead, we get this crap! do we really deserve this...?

12th Apr 2001, 21:38
Come on Guv,

Please!!!!!! Let us know what you know about this guy John Porter!!!!!! or anyone else for that matter.


12th Apr 2001, 22:15
What makes anyone think AACS or GSS would not have come into being if Atlas pilots never voted ALPA onto the property? What indications are there that it would not have been accelerated, and the outfall would not have been worse on the mainline Atlas pilots? At least with ALPA, there is a good chance of near-term protection in the form of a Scope clause!

13th Apr 2001, 05:43

as some of us have tried to explain again and again... AACS (and GSS) have not been founded to break up ALPA representation in Atlas (that is just a sideshow), but to be able to offer ACMI services to BA without any legal chance of rejection by a EU-based carrier. BA is so imporant to Atlas that they worked this way to circumvene the EU regulations. As the company (GSS) is held majorly bu EU-based financial sources, the regs are complied with.

There's nothing like a three-holer...

Beaver Driver
13th Apr 2001, 06:21
As some of us who are actually employed by Atlas have been trying to tell YOU for months, there are several facets to the Atlas/AACS and GSS situation. One of their purposes is to provide lift during a strike. The other purpose was to create a rift between our pilot group and also the American and Eurpoean pilots.

The BA contract is, and was not, that important to Atlas. More important was getting a foot in the door with the DETR and EU. Can you say flagging out. I can't believe you guys are going to be taken in again. You were taken in with AACS and now Atlas is going to sucker you in with GSS. PT Barnum was right, there is one born every minute, but a whole country of suckers. Hmmmm...

Can you explain to us how you would think this is in any way going to be a UK controled company? In all actuality we here at Atlas think GSS could be a good thing. It gets us in the door with the EU, and provides us access to all that juicy European flying. Seems to me that if GSS can lease crews from AACS, an American controled company, they can just as easily lease them from mainline. Thanks.

13th Apr 2001, 16:33
"Can you explain to us how you would think this is in any way going to be a UK controled company?" - Well, I'll try - 51% is in my book a controlling interest, as opposed to the 49% held by Atlas.

"Seems to me that if GSS can lease crews from AACS, an American controled (sic) company, they can just as easily lease them from mainline." - I'm sure they would be delighted to entertain an application from someone as experienced as yourself, assuming that is, that you have the requisite licence to operate a UK registered 747-400.

13th Apr 2001, 18:22
BALPA leadership must be in bed with BA management. The real BA pilots ought to be livid that BA is out-sourcing THEIR jobs at all, and especially to the likes of tramp outfits like GSS and AACS. BALPA must be one of those "company" unions.

13th Apr 2001, 18:41
Dry leasing Atlas planes is nothing new:

Meh seem to remember a few years ago, SAS leased a couple of 747-200s, AND they were flown by SAS pilots.

As for the rest of the mess, hope ya guys can sort it out without fighting each other and without having to strike to get a decent contract.

(Althougt I am not holding my breath.... :) )

Men, this is no drill...

13th Apr 2001, 20:53
Well, I've been searching for two days and can't find one thing about this "John Porter"! Seems as though Atlas Mgt. has done it again, and found another sucker to bully around!

Someone please tell me how the U.K. courts could be so naive that they think that this "John Porter", a no name in the World Cargo industry, is going to be running the show over at GSS?

Let's see Mr. Porter we (Atlas Air) will take back all our airplanes and take back all of our money unless you do what we say! I think that's about what it will be like if he tries to run his own show.

Atlas and BA are in bed together, making plans for expansion. That's the only reason that Atlas is doing all this for just a two airplane contract. If it weren't they would say kiss off and we'll put our two 400's somewhere else.

If I were BA/BALPA pilots I would be going out of my mind over this. Hello??? To quote Tony Soprano, "Hey, if you guys had any Balls, you'd be over there wit a baseball bat, breaking knee caps!!!!!!!"

ATTENTION ALL BA PILOTS!!!!! You are about to miss out on the huge world cargo expansion. I know that you guys are too good to fly cargo and all, but a command pays the same if you fly boxes or people!!!!!!

14th Apr 2001, 01:23

well, so BA and all the other EU flying you lost in the past few weeks is not important? Why did Altas put so much effort into GSS then? Guess with 34 airplanes you have no choice of customers anymore but have to take anybody you can. The competition does not sleep, and if I believe what I hear, your performance has also been better...

Bu I agree with you, GSS could also lease in crews from Mainline (provided they make a JAA conversion of their license, a thing that could be done at the next recurrent). But there the ex-Frank Lorenzo thinking takes in. Why bot screw the crews with AACS?

But believe me, the whole thing started by the DETR saying NO to the initial BA contract. I also learned out of a reliable source that Michal never believed you guys would go Union and that he reated you very well. Sems his perception was slightly wrong...

By the way, as we already discuss ACMI politics here, why on earth does Atlas need the traffic rights to Brazil and did not leave them to Evergreen or Gemini? Leaving the ACMI concept? Same as ex Hong Kong?

There's nothing like a three-holer...

14th Apr 2001, 21:03
From Fridays Speednews - The mysterious Mr Porter!

Atlas Air, Inc. (NYSE: CGO) announced that it has become a minority
investor in a new United Kingdom-based cargo airline. The new cargo
carrier, to be majority-owned by entrepreneur John Porter, will be
known as Global Supply Systems, Limited (Global). The company will
initially provide ACMI (Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance and Insurance)
leases of Boeing 747 freighter aircraft to airlines in the United
Kingdom and will begin operations out of London's Stansted Airport.

John Porter, a private investor and UK citizen, owns 51 percent of
Global and New York-based Atlas Air has taken a 49 percent interest.
Mr. Porter will provide the venture with not only start-up equity,
but also his entrepreneurial perspective, UK experience and
considerable business acumen. Atlas Air will also provide start-up
equity and its operating and commercial expertise to the enterprise.

"We are delighted to have a businessman of John Porter's caliber
taking both an ownership interest and an active role in this
initiative," said Richard Shuyler, chief executive officer of Atlas
Air. "Atlas Air has a history of anticipating market trends, and we
believe that the demand for low cost heavy airfreight capacity in the
UK will continue to grow. With this investment, we are positioning
ourselves to capitalize on that growth, while adapting to the
changing regulatory environment in the UK"

Global anticipates commencing operations in autumn 2001. Its initial
customer will be British Airways (BA), to whom it will wet lease two
747-400s under a multi-year agreement executed by the companies. At
that time, Atlas Air will convert its ACMI contracts with BA to
Global. Global intends to dry lease its first two 747-400 aircraft
from Atlas Air

15th Apr 2001, 00:54
So, who is John Porter and will he control the co?

15th Apr 2001, 00:57
Got the T-Shirt,

Hey man, I don't mean to sound so sarcastic, but.....

Anyone remotely familiar with this situation has already read the press release. Thanks anyway!

However, the press release is exactly the reason why I am requesting that someone enlighten us as to who John Porter is. The press release doesn't tell us anything about him. He's an entrepreneur, what the hell does that mean??? What has this guy been up to before now? How did he make his money, and what qualifies him to run an airline? I'm a stock holder of CGO (ATLAS) and I want to know who the hell this guy is.

Anyone out there with information on John Porter, other than the obvious press release, please enlighten us all.


15th Apr 2001, 01:04
Suspect that GSS is the first shovel of dirt used to bury Atlas mainline guys. And what about AACS, well they will be used to fly the US registered aircraft during the upcomming strike. The handwriting is on the wall. Wonder if Frank L. is in the wings now?

15th Apr 2001, 01:41
Even if AACS is used as strike breakers, AACS will only be able to crew 10 or so aircraft at the most. Less, if some of them go to GSS. Even Southern and Polar couldn’t fill the gap. The best thing for both sided to do right now, is to figure out a solution to the mess MC created, expand the fleet and press on.....

The Real

15th Apr 2001, 04:13
AACS has become laughable! Latest estimates are that there are only about 40 or so guys left. GSS is going to take 7 capt's from there and 17 F/O's, that leaves about 16 guys to fly 37 aircraft, during the main line strike. Of those guys some will not cross a picket line.

Most of the AACS guys are bailing out rapidly to places like Dragon Air, Atlas can't make good on their training bonds that they made some of the guys sign. Dragon Air has a base in MAN and (I think) is going to open up a base in AMS. This leaves the guys at AACS, for now, to try to cover the two BA 400 A/C and some misc. 200 flying. The bid package, from what I hear, has about two lines on it. And there is absolutely no hiring going on at AACS. As a matter of fact, rumor has it that Mr. Bull has been told that his operation is way over budget and they need to make some serious cut backs.

So, with their attrition, and their labor problems. Mr. Bull is probably wondering what has he gotten himself into. Now the way that I see it, when Atlas Main Line gets it's scope clause, AACS will go away. And GSS will have to lease crews from Main Line. The only requirement will be for the guys who fly the GSS contract to have a JAR endorsement put on their FAA licenses, which can be done in the sim at their next PC check.

With that done, the 51% controlled U.K. company will have their own AOC, be leasing it's G- registered 400's from Atlas, and use "contract" crews from Atlas Air Main Line. Seems as though it would be the best of both worlds for Atlas Management. Settle the labor dispute with the union, and settle the legal dispute with the U.K. government! Wow, wasn't that easy! and Atlas still gets to do what it wanted to do in the first place.......dominate the U.K. long haul flying!!!!!
:) :) :) :) :) :) :O

15th Apr 2001, 04:44
Mr. Bull - not the Mr. Bull that used to be the Chief Pilot of the 747 fleet in BA by any chance??? (Tell me it's not true, seems too much of a coincidence)

15th Apr 2001, 04:51
The very one!!! You got it, Mike Bull ex BA Cheif Pilot 747 fleet.

capt kickback
15th Apr 2001, 05:19
Gentleman, For info John Porter is a well regarded buisnessman in the UK, he is the man behind Tescos the NOW worldwide supermarket chain that just turned over 1 billion dollars in profit AFTER tax!!...believe me gentleman this man is no dunce

15th Apr 2001, 06:16
Capt. Kickback,

Thanks for the tip, but I've searched the BBC News Archive, and every other search engine that I could think of. I can't find anything that Links a "John Porter" to Tesco Co. or Tesco Supermarkets.

Still searching......... Help needed!

15th Apr 2001, 17:27
Martinair-Holland wet leases a 747 from Atlas this year. Is that mainline or AACS?

15th Apr 2001, 17:28
John Porter I have heard is friend of Lord Sainsbury and is high up at the Stamford Street, London based supermarket chain that is 'Sainsburys'a top UK retailer.
Latest news at STN is that AACS is doing incredibily well and is fast building a good reputation in the UK freight world, because despite all the odds and heckling from the US, the Brits behind the operation have got on with it and made it work. The UK/Europe to Asia market is the fastest growing in the world and GSS is perfectly timed to take on this challenge.
Now for years the US has dominated everything but what with Europe and China fast becoming SUPERPOWERS its time our friends across the pond realised its a global business and instead of being confrontational with all who join their US companies expansions abroad, they should welcome the contributions being made by 'foreigners' to expand and better their companies i.e. Atlas. Here in the UK we realised there were no longer jobs for life back in the 70's, so if you really feel so strongly about the way they are treating you, look elsewhere, if anything Atlas gives many an opportunity to upgrade to 747's and 744's.
For the record the quality of crews at AACS are exempliary and the standard is set very high, there are no budget problems and the expectations are high that this forward thinking operation will be a success.
This is all good news for the UK aviation sector. GSS is a natural progression for the business plan to succeed, which IT WILL !!

Beaver Driver
15th Apr 2001, 20:16

Thanks for the Porter info. Do you think the head of a supermarket chain is going to be able to demonstrate effective control of an aviation company with Atlas as a 49% partner?

Your AACS thinking is seriously is flawed. Take it from those of us that have seen the log books, talked to the crews, and done their training, AACS is a floundering ship. The average bid line is 20 hours, available only after the STN chief pilot has taken his cut. Don't know about their reputation with customers, but I wonder how good it can be after taxiing an aircraft off the runway in Haan, and one or two other incidents attributed to lack of experience? Also says lots about the quality of crews.

You guys are the ones who informed us what a major "richard cranium" Mike Bull was. Now you're telling us he's a quality guy? For in reality, other than the pilots, he is the only Brit behind AACS.

Funny you should talk about the coming global market and work force. If it weren't for the UK's isolationist policies, this would not even have to happen. Atlas would not have to start a UK company like GSS only to lease American crews from mainline. Atlas would have never considered opening a company in labour dominated UK if they had not been forced to by the UK government. Your comments on jobs for life are laughable.

When is the UK going to join the global community? You say you so strongly support the EU, then why don't you embrace the Euro? Seems to me that you support the EU only when it is convenient for you.

For the record, the quality of crews at AACS is extremely poor. Other than a very few ex-BA captains, the experience level is very low even for a company like Atlas. The failure rate of AACS new hires, in the sim and on IOE, has been so high that Atlas, which used to train to proficiency, has had to put a limit on the amount of training time they would give to these people.

GSS is the re-naming of a company called neuveauline. It doesn't yet have an AOC, and has a director listed as Mike Bull, the supposed head of that money pit known as AACS. Is he going to run both companies? My bet is that AACS is finished. It will be gone long before the the US courts and congress are finished with their ponderous deliberations. It will, However, probably still cost Atlas money in fines. This was an ill fated venture from the start.

My advice to you is to throw off those rose colored glasses and abandon this sinking ship before you drown in your own glad tidings and feelings of goodwill and good fortune.

[This message has been edited by Beaver Driver (edited 15 April 2001).]

15th Apr 2001, 23:05

You are AACS right? Well, enough said! It shows how much you are in the information loop just by admitting that you work at AACS.

You are probably one of the guys who (they all say this) say, "that I didn't know all the stuff that was going on over here, and
how bad things were till I got here! " Whatever buddy! Every AACS guy says it!

I find it hard to believe that none of the AACS guys knew what you were getting into! Just chasing the frigging dream of flying the 747! Bunch of two bit whores. It just proves it by how much you support and defend the place. Let me ask you one question, "If you had it do over again, would you do any thing different???"

Thought so!

15th Apr 2001, 23:15
Beaver Driver
I am a (non BA)744 Captain with AACS with many thousand heavy command hours. I have read your postings on this subject and must tell you that you are very misinformed.
AACS is going very well and GSS will go even better. So kindly either get your facts right or shut up and get a life!!

Beaver Driver
15th Apr 2001, 23:56
I have been at NATCO and personally watched several AACS guys go down in flames. I have flown trips with AACS captain upgrades with (on IOE) that I wouldn't let rent a Cessna. Thank God for a check airman in the other seat. Sorry if I generalize a bit, and perhaps you are as good as you think you are. Most of the ones I have seen are not. If you think AACS is alive and well then your post and your self proclaimed history is already suspect. Better jump to Dragon Air or join the BA DEP scheme. AACS is on it's way out.

16th Apr 2001, 02:13

Would you say that a guy who VOLUNTEERS to fly a 747 for $38,888.00 a year as a FO and $60,000.00 for a Captain is being a whore just to fly the big 747?

Tell us, what is your pay and why did you CHOOSE to fly for such a pittance?

BTW, why aren’t you mad at your own check airmen for VOLUNTEERING to train YOUR job away? Your anger is misplaced at AACS. Who do you think will VOLUNTEER to train the GSS guys, also your replacements????

Seems to us that you need to get your own house in order before you throw stones at the rest of us who are just trying to feed our families.

Beaver Driver
16th Apr 2001, 02:21
Box Mover
The Atlas check airmen did ot volunteer. They were told in no uncertain terms that if they did not train the AACS pilots they would be fired. They were not allowed to turn in their check aiman status under the same threat. As we do not yet have a contract and are an "At Will" company Atlas management could have easily made good on this threat. Believe me NONE of the check airmen wanted to do this. Even less so when they saw the calibure of the pilots that Atlas hired for AACS.

16th Apr 2001, 06:30
Whiz and 747 driver
I've been flying the two BA aircraft for the last six months and if you guy's think AACS is doing OK then I'd have to say that Whiz is ****** and 747Driver would be one of our former own *** ********* because those are about the only names I see in the logbooks so if that's who you are then yeah AACS is going just fine for you. Other than that I'd liketo see all these guy's you say AACS has because they aren't showing up in the logbook.

Just for clarification when I was hired I was told 120K US and 15 days a month upgrade in one year. The first two were a bold faced Lorenzo lie and the second was taken away by AACS. I no longer am counting on AAMT telling the truth but am hanging on to eihter get what they owe me or make DAMN certain these people never do this to any pilot again. You don't have to thank me it's just called morals and integrity.

[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 18 April 2001).]

16th Apr 2001, 08:05

You are in denial and or are a check airman. Please then tell me how you account for the aircrew members who became check airmen and instructors AFTER May 2000 and AFTER the IFALPA call to not support the training of the AACS folks??????

You may be telling us the truth when you say that an existing check airman when AACS was formed, would be fired if they resigned as a check airman, and I will give you that one. But, how can you explain all your “fellow” crewmembers who VOLUNTEERED to sign up to be new check airman and ground school instructors after this AACS came into being? And what would happen to a check airman who had a family crisis and had to stop being a check airman. Would the company fire him? Your logic is full of holes. Actually, you are not using logic at all.

I want you to just answer that question for us………. Please explain how management “forced” line crewmembers to become check airman and ground school instructors after AACS was formed!!!!! Did they go up to them and say, “ I command you to be a check airman/ground school instructor or you will be fired!” ? Atlas management could have not started AACS without the extra VOLUNTEERS that eagerly signed up. I welcome any AACS or Atlas guys to confirm or deny this. Next time you fly with a check airman, or go to ground school, ask the instructor how long they have been in that job…..

Like I said before, get your own house in order before you point the finger. Just remember, when you point a finger at someone, you have 3 pointing back at yourself.

Shame on your own people (post AACS formation) for training YOUR job away. Shame on you for blaming AACS crewmembers for taking your job away when your own people have done it to you.

Do like you tell the AACS guys to do, quit and go get a “real” job that pays better and has better working conditions.

16th Apr 2001, 20:36

So you did know about the IFALPA ban on training and all the crap that was going on at Atlas, before you signed up to get that $60K/yr NON-UNION, IFALPA-BANED, BOEING 747 SUPER JET PILOT JOB!!!!

Well, enough said!

Capt's were making 120k/yr U.S. before they stole our profit sharing away. I'm owed about 32K U.S. right now. Let me put this in perspective for you. If you and your wife (if you have one) were walking down the street and someone ran up and snatched her purse away from you, I would be that you would be so mad that you would be willing to kill the guy who did it? Even better one, a guy says that if you don't give me your wife's purse I'm going to hurt her. I bet that you'd be willing to kill him or at least defend her with your life? And to top it off in your wife's purse is about $100 and some credit cards that you can cancel (not much, is it?). Well just imagine if it were $65,000 U.S. in there now, that's what's owed to many of our pilots. Or imagine if someone came into your house and took everything that was in it. What is owed to me is more than the worth of the total sum of everything that I own, including my car!!!

Well, we at Pilots saw the company do just that!!! They stole it from us. They have been convicted of it!!! And are going to have to pay it back!!!! Now you couple that with the fact that they bringing in replacement NON UNION workers at AACS, do you think that you would embrace this idea? No, you would see it as the guy on the street trying to hurt you and your family, just so he can gain selfishly gain from your loss!!!!!

I'm not asking you to like it, all I'm trying to do is put you in our shoes. We here have been wronged 1000 times more than you at AACS could ever imagine. We have put in the blood sweat and tears to make this place what it is today. You know the Logo on the tail of our planes? That guy holding up the Globe is US, The ATLAS PILOTS! I'm tired of you guys defending your positions by giving excuses! You knew it was wrong, but you just wanted the type rating, you wanted to build enough time to go somewhere else, or get on with Drag.Air, or Korean or whatever, but what you didn't realize, in your selfish gain, is that we ATLAS PILOTS are suffering from it! You don't care! So, we in turn don't care either!!!! You made a mistake and now you must live with it!

If AACS hasn't fallen on it's face by then, the SCOPE clause will take care of it. I'm telling you now, get ready for it.................

Can you say DATE OF HIRE????? Where would that put you on our seniority list, huh???? Not a Capt. you say???? Oh, wow, what a concept, you have to go into basically a new hire position??? Sorry, but that's what you'd be doing at BA or any other airline. You can't hold STN any more and you can't get a visa or green card??? You are just scared cause your HIGH AND MIGHTY, JUMP OVER EVERYONE'S HEAD, COMMAND might just be gone!!!!!!! And don't give me that crap about, "you could have bid it if you wanted to!" You know the answer to that.

And about the Check Airman, the guys that signed up to volunteer after May 2000 didn't even get involved in training the initial slew of you guys. Besides they haven't been hiring new Check Airman, I know of at least five or six Ex Check Airman who are now "Standards Pilots". They have down sized the Check Airman force over the past year. So, you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.

Wow, if you guys really think that AACS is going great that scares me!!! Because that means one of two things........
1. that we hear at Atlas Air, pilots and management alike (we're getting reports from both), are damn clueless as to what's really going on. or.......

2. you guys are being lied to by Atlas Mgmt.!!!

Which one is more inclined to be true????

Blue & White
17th Apr 2001, 02:45
I was a former pilot at Atlas Air. When the initial training was started for AACS, we tried to post messages and inform the check airman and instructors to make a stand. Avoid training their future replacements. However, the pleas fell on deaf ears and what can I say but "you get what you deserve." Sorry that your greed had to drag the rest of the pilot force down with you. You think the company could have fired all the instructors at once? I don't think so......stand up for your rights or let the management run you out the door.

17th Apr 2001, 04:16
Blue and White,

I used to think just like you and felt the same about the check airman making a stand. But.........

Can you say Illegal Job Action?

At the negotiations table it seems like the mediator is heavily on our side. The reason why is we've let the Company Step on their Johnson's every chance they've had, and we've been little angels!!! That goes a long way at the table. The last thing we need to do right now is mess that up!

It's easy to say what you've said when you're not here any more. The rest of us are worrying about a long carrier here at Atlas, not getting our time in and leaving!!!

Good luck to you in your new carrier, and thanks for the support to the union while you were here. We Atlas pilots do appreciate it.

17th Apr 2001, 05:12
I hate getting into this type of discussion, but Heavywhale still has not answered my question…..

The “new” check airman (post AACS and post IFALPA’s call to NOT train AACS personnel) wanted to be 747 instructors for their own reasons. I have talked to one, he said that he loved instructing in the 747, that he didn’t “need” the money or cared about ALPA, being a retired military man……. That he is in it for himself and will be turning 60 soon.…… He and others like him, are responsible for YOU losing YOUR job!!!!!! Your own people!!!!!

You and Heavywhale still have not confirmed or denied my question about the “new” instructors and check airmen…… Please explain to us, why in hell they would VOLUNTEER to be instructors or check airmen at ATLAS air since the formation of AACS?????!!!!!….. You can’t and wont…….All you have to do, is tell us is that they are scum and we all will believe you…. But to ignore the FACT is to show your own ignorance….Right boys????

I ask again…… confirm or deny this point right now, or shut up.

For the rest of you…. It is true…. There are pilots at ATLAS who don’t give a damn about their “buddies” You have been trained by them....

Once again… please answer the basic question….How do you explain the check airman and instructors who VOLUNTEERED Post AACS????????????????

We are waiting????

Beaver Driver
17th Apr 2001, 06:48
I don't know of any that actually volunteered post-AACS. There was a list of volunteers prior to AACS that the company was working off of, and any new instructors (I believe) were taken from this list. Heavy is right however, the number of instructors seems to have shrunk.

So you talked to ONE person who has an attitude like that. Does that mean that we are all guilty of some big conspiricy? What should we do to keep one person from doing something that un-caring and self-serving. There were 19 mainline guys that actually bid that fiasco. What should we have done to keep them from being so selfish and doing that? For most of them it was pure selfishness, they couldn't care less about their fellow Atlas pilots, much the same as the guy you talked to. In my opinion keel hauling is too good for people like that. Unfortunately ya' just can't do that these days. So you just have to tell those self serving assholes how you feel about them and then let it happen.

I talk to Atlas XCA's all the time who said they tried everything they knew to do, while still remaining professional, to keep from training AACS people. The company would have none of it. We certainly gave them a lot of rhetoric until we found out what the company was telling them. For the record, almost all of the ground and sim training was done by NATCO contract instructors. The Atlas mainline instructors were only used for IOE.

17th Apr 2001, 13:03
Box mover, you sure do sling the feces about dont you?, I can't think of ONE mainline pilot who has LOST his/her job over AACS, but I can come up with a hundred or so who have lost commands because of it.(read you).
Can also come up with a couple hundred more who didn't get hired due to them hiring off shore labor.(read Non US Citizens)
Did you really expect our check airmen to all up and quit when HMS Stansted came about?, at least with them in there the mainline pilot force still had some oversight and control over the whole process.
They haven't been recieved so well either, after some poor performances by people obviously underqualified in the 74 pretending to be Capt. and the ensuing thumbs down AACS cried foul, that the check pilots were "out to get them", from the examples I've just heard, it was all just basic airmanship mate, pure and simple.
So would we want some AACS check airman letting these examples slide?, or would we want to maintain our high standards and keep everyone on an even keel?. DUH
So you think we are big complainers eh?
Just read in the local HKG paper that Cathay pilots are furious about Cathay Pacific MGT advertising in Malaysia for Pilots at guess what, SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER WAGES. (One pilot was reported to heve thrown peanuts at the managing directorin a meeting, how couth)
MGT's response?
"Oh that was just exploratory, we really didn't mean it".
Yeah well, so is a colonoscapy and they both hurt your ass the same.

If you are as you seem, somewhat dillusioned at AACS, get that DragonAir Job ASAP, because I doubt you were one of the chosen few to be asked to go to GSS.

17th Apr 2001, 18:37
Hey Box,

You haven't answered my question! So, please tell us your rational behind coming over to AACS when you knew that there was an IFALPA ban on training, and that you knew that Main Line was ALPA, and that you knew that AACS would be non-union?

We are waiting? ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

17th Apr 2001, 19:29
Thank you Blue & White for confirming the facts……

To answer your question HeavyWhale, I will quote from a movie…….

“Everyone’s got a right to be a sucker once.”

17th Apr 2001, 21:34

Ignorance is no excuse! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

You knew it! You did it! and Now you have to live with it!

Beaver Driver
17th Apr 2001, 22:24
Blue and White
Aren't you the ex Southern Air instructor who left Atlas because they wouldn't immediately make you a check airman? Just asking.

Kep Ten Jim
18th Apr 2001, 00:51
Beaver and Heavy,

Just 2 questions;

1. Do you expect / hope, AACS pilots will join in your strike?
2. Do you honestly think that a pilot who joined AACS is going to resign just because his being there doesn't suit you?

Let's look at this scenario more realistically. AACS is going to exist for a lot longer than you hope. GSS will probably be around for even longer, and if they both did a wheels up, who cares? - the ex-BA pilots are doing the job as a hobby anyway, and the others have ended up with a cheap - 400 rating.

Now if you were tacticians, you'd be brown-nosing AACS pilots, buying them drinks and getting them onsides to support your strike - not castigating them and calling them scabs. Think boys, think!

18th Apr 2001, 02:08
Very True Kep Ten Jim

The biggest complaint that I hear is that when Atlas started, the retired military guys did it as a hobby too. Hence accepting what you and I think of as low pay. To them, it was all gravy, on top of their retirement paycheck. And it worked!!!! For years!!!! They were "happy" with the pay. Then , Atlas grew and all the other airlines were hiring the retired military types, Atlas had to hire "regular" civilians who know what industry standards are. I dont know this, but I'll be willing to bet that their union leaders are non-military types.

Once again, I welcome any Atlas pilot to confirm or deny all of this.

Management will always be able to find "retired" guys who will do this as a hobby. They found them in the early 90's, they are finding them now and they will find them 20 years from now.

[This message has been edited by Box_Mover (edited 17 April 2001).]

Blue & White
18th Apr 2001, 07:12
Beaver Driver,
No, I've never been associated with Southern. I was retired Air Force and went straight to Atlas. Loved flying for you guys and enjoyed the flying much better than the major I'm flying with now.
However, just didn't trust Atlas management and where they were headed with the company. If I thought Atlas would be around until my retirement, I would still be there getting ready to carry the pickets. I wish all of you the best of luck.

18th Apr 2001, 11:25
Good Day Guys,


18th Apr 2001, 14:12
Hey mind your netiquette!DON'T SHOUT.
And please don't call each other pimps and whores.(getting complaints from real pimps and whores who feel they are being degraded).

18th Apr 2001, 18:19
Kep Ten Jim,

To answer your......

Just 2 questions;

1. Do you expect / hope, AACS pilots will join in your strike?
2. Do you honestly think that a pilot who joined AACS is going to resign just because his being there doesn't suit you?

1. Doesn't' really matter what I want, if they don't they will be scabs and they wont get the jobs that they are hoping for. They would actually be stuck at AACS for their carrier, and would never get that great job that they came to AACS for in the first place. I'd be willing to bet that every AACS pilot is here to use this place just for their own personal stepping stone. They don't see this place as a career for themselves. They just wanted the quick 400 type, get their 500hr.s and then bolt out of here, or they are ExBA guys who just don't give a crap, have a retirement and wont cross for the life of themselves.

2. Resign? Why would they do that? Especially when they don't have their 500hrs to go somewhere else. Pilots are like Monkey's, they don't let go of one branch unless they have a firm grip on the next one. We here at Atlas are trying to make this a place where you can have a career. So guys like Blue & White don't leave. By the way Blue & White, I know who you are and say hello to my best friend next time you see him. I bet that you aren't getting as much tail as you were when you were here, you Arkansas boy!!! We miss you!


Once again, you have demonstrated your total ignorance of the situation. Two out of the Three of the union leadership are Ex-military guys! Not to mention, our chief negotiator at the table is ex-military. You have such a management attitude! Your "take them for granted" attitude is exactly what has gotten Atlas Mgmt. into trouble.

Let me put this into perspective for you. Take me for example, I don't have any outside income. Therefore, when I go on strike, what do I have to live off of? Nothing!!!! When my fellow, ex-military guys go on strike, what do they have to live off of??? You got it....their retirement! Their strike funds are already funded!!! So, your backward thinking about the Ex-military guys is totally flawed and you have no idea as to what the make up of this pilot group is, let alone the union leadership!

Does anyone out there have anything that they can back up with facts, instead of talking out of their sphincters!!!! :)

18th Apr 2001, 19:04
the aacs/gss pilots(or whoever they think they work for) will certainly cross the picket lines...what have they got to loose? they are never going to be employed here in the states anyway, and only a very few will ever be back to live in the states....i mentioned to one of them (aacs/gss) how it would help their cause to have aacs/gss represented by balpa....he gleefully replied he/most were....???? he said he was a member of balpa already..i asked him if aacs/gss was represented by balpa.....he had no clue!!!...i shook my head, turned and walked away....don't worry guys, idiots like that will fly our airplanes, but thankfully there ain't enough of them to go around...

Kep Ten Jim
18th Apr 2001, 20:37

No but you see, I don't get your logic - you have said in the past that they are scabs now. So really they don't have much to lose by not supporting your strike. How much scabbier can they get?

That's why I'm saying - instead of the premature rhetoric, why don't you try the 'softly' approach and try and solicit a bit of sympathy for your cause? You can shout and scream and name-call as much as you want but that aint going to help matters, is it?

Let's face it, AACS/GSS is a fact of life, no matter how much you dislike the idea. Try and adapt to a dynamic situation, and don't put all your faith in some arbitrary labour movement halting the progress and expansion of a large airline. If your ALPA doesn't succeed in crushing the expansion plans of Atlas, then you are going to be a very bitter and twisted young man! (Old man?)Adaptability is the essence of survivability.

Blue & White
19th Apr 2001, 03:30
If this is junior, say hello to your dad for me across the pond. How's he liking the job? In addition, if you decide to jump ship, send me a resume. I'll be glad to give you a rec and walk the letter into HR. The company is hiring like crazy, not as interesting as Atlas, but at least it pays. Don't wait too long to make a decision. Hell at your age, you'll be a 777 captain for 15 years with 4.5 million in your retirement fund. Now Hong Kong can't be that much fun!!!! Look in whowhere.com and you can find my address. Take care.

19th Apr 2001, 18:56
Box Mover - I know of only one guy at Atlas that probably does it as a "hobby." And his wife probably doesn't want him around anyway. I am retired military and I'm here to tell you that even a Lt Col's retirement pay is only about $32k per year. I left Atlas and now work for a major airline with a management that has to abide by a contract. I will make much more than a present Atlas captain in my third year as an F/O, WITH a much better/shorter schedule and a scope clause. In addition, the company does not hire inexperienced/marginal pilots like Atlas has, expecially at AACS.

Bottom line is that after about 6 months of being screwed at Atlas, they decide that they might as well work for a good company making MUCH better money with less time away.

No doubt the "flying" at Atlas was great, but it wasn't worth the crap compensation, crummy retirement, and lousy/extended schedules.

19th Apr 2001, 19:49
Well I'll be, it seems that my prediction has come to pass.

Now it seems that the shoe is on the other foot with the GSS deal...poor AACS! It just breaks my @#%&*^~ heart. Really, it does (not).

Anybody out there know how much Pakistani pilots get paid? I'll wager that GSS does.

20th Apr 2001, 20:05
And now for something completly different.
A question for the much maligned AACS boys, what has Mikey the Bull told you all about GSS? What are the direct consequences to AACS pilots, what are the terms for crossing over to GSS? What will AACS MGT do for you all about getting JAA 747-400 licenses? What sort of protection to seniority will the move provide? Will the training bond that some of you signed be waived? What about the fact that the available pool of aircraft that you will be able to fly in GSS will go from 37 planes to 2-4? How long will GSS keep you all on the payroll if you are not flying much? Who will dispatch GSS planes? Who will fill the MGT. roles at AACS and GSS? Will they cross over? Will M. Bull hold slots in both companies? What protections will you as pilots have from unfair discipline/termination? Will GSS still prohibit organising a union? Is anyone asking these questions over there? Let's hear about it.

20th Apr 2001, 22:11
partyreptile....those aacs/gss boys don't have a frapping clue..at least that's what they tell me when i ask them...they just shrug their shoulders...do they really know? or are they really in the dark? or just not concerned...hell, i don't think they even have a fcpm (ours is worhtless) and they don't abide by our fom (beards). you'd think they might want to know just what the hell is going on....guess not...good for us!!!!

20th Apr 2001, 22:44
It's just a huge free for all! Anyone, else want to jump in our pool!

Come on in the water's fine!!! ;) ;)


Beware the sharks!!! > http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif