Qatar A330-300 in the Grass at CDG

[A300Man]

Extremely slippery surfaces at CDG today. See the attached link. (Credit to the host site and photographer. Thanks).

In this close-up view, I miss the old livery actually!

JetPhotos.Net Photo » A7-AEA (CN: 623) Qatar Airways Airbus A330-303 by Jonathan Zaninger (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6455642&nseq=0)

[Black Stain]

Just cooling the brakes :)

[shneidertrophy]

Slippery surfaces????

Or one of our newly hired so called CRJ captain wannabees, given a left seat on an A330 who found out the hard way that the A330 actually IS a bigger plane?

AIMS will tell I guess.

But than again...who cares?

Keep it safe guys...

[Capt Krunch]

ah yes, just another one of QA's finest hard at work, North African this time I believe, seems he himself believes that slippery conditions were the cause, more like poor turn judgment.
funny how no other aircraft in CDG had this problem that day.

we'll see the out come if any, some nationalities are well supported within QA.

power to the people (or should I say SOME people)


Poisoned by Compromise
Krunch

[CaptainProp]

Come on guys! Maybe you are all correct, but just because no one else ended up in the grass doesn't mean it wasn't slippery.....

CP

[40&80]

Interesting....A Gf L1011 did the same at CDG in approx 1976ish and got bogged down in the grass...attempting a 120degree turn off the runway
as ordered by ATC...known ever after as Dons corner.
It was then found no instruction on taxi turns and aircraft reference points to safely do these or anyother tight turns on narrow runways had been given to any Gf crews.
Maybe this Captain was also placed in harms way by lack of knowledge of how to taxi and turn a widebody.

[loc22550]

One thing is sure, this picture will never end up in qatar propaganda's newspapers...:hmm:

On the other hand i saw long time back at CDG:2000 (and during the summer time,so no ice on taxi way..) An Air france Airbus A-340 with his left hand landing gear in the grass after "missing" a turn during taxi...(ok A340 is not A330 right..),So i guess nobody is immune from doing a mistake.

[notanotherhilton]

You should be ashamed of yourself Krunch. Getting stuck into a colleague, a fellow Pilot, based on nationality before any investigation has taken place. You couldnt spell professionalism.

[CanadaRocks]

Just put the guy on the A346, but don't let him fly without TACS!

[CanadaRocks]

Sorry! It should read guy or girl!:)

[shneidertrophy]

All I know is that I have been flying in and out CDG for over 15 years in all sorts of weather conditions and in all sorts of airplanes (bigger and smaller than the A333).

CDG airport is very good at handling all kinds of adverse weather conditions and I have never seen taxiway surfaces slippery enough to make my main landing gear slide!

I do not know either which turn exactly this could have happend knowing the RWY he landed on and the stand he was going to besides the fact that a turn-in was misjudged!

Its easy....if it realy would have been that slippery wouldnt it have been the nosewheel that would have skidded of the TWY when trying to turn?

Sorry guys, everybody can make mistakes and this very much includes myself, but I smell a cover up here of a judgmental error.

The pilot himself can not even be blamed for this...QR TRNG department is to be blamed! They do not care at all wether their crews are proficient or not when sending them into cold WX ops! All they care about is the legality of the recurrent training so they blindly follow the 6 months recurrent program!

This means that a newly hired inexperienced captain can do his first LPC/OPC in september following the summer program, than fly the whole winter to Europe without ANY training after which he will do his winter recurrent somewhere in March, for the first time experiencing cold WX training!

This problem has been reported to the training department but all of the stars and stripes in there turn a deaf ear!

5 star airline with 1/2 star training!

Maybe the NSW tiller was slippery?

[mkdar]

throby

Why do you sound so surprised buddy?
Can’t you see snow on the banks of the taxiways?
If that does not hint slippery taxiways to you then I hate to be one of your passengers on airports like CDG that day.
It’s screaming in your face , what more do you want ? a written statement?
I don’t fly QA , never did and probably never will but, you obviously have an issue with that particular guy beyond reason, it can happen to you too Chuck Yager.

[White Knight]

mkdar - it all depends on what the snow/ice removal's been like.. Recently I was at a Euro airport with great piles of snow around the taxiways but the taxiway itself was real nice and 'grippy'...:}

[whitebrain]

ah yes, just another one of QA's finest hard at work, North African this time I believe, seems he himself believes that slippery conditions were the cause, more like poor turn judgment.
funny how no other aircraft in CDG had this problem that day.

we'll see the out come if any, some nationalities are well supported within QA.

power to the people (or should I say SOME people)


Poisoned by Compromise
Krunch
well at teast he is not going to cost the company 6M$ like your brother Captain Kangaroo in jeddah, and you think if it happened to one aircraft it should happen to all the others, what a Captain you are if you are
now I let you guess which nationalities are supported just look at youself

[sayap-patah]

uupppssss....what will happen to the skipper as soon as he arrv in doha???:ugh:

[loc22550]

What will happens to the skipper....? well i guess it will depend.. if the captain involved is a good friend of the big boss or not, and if he belongs or not to one of those well (politicaly dictated) "protected" gangs here.

[Capt Krunch]

WhiteBrain

FYI:
yes I am a Capt here.
I dont support the end result of what happened to Capt Kangaroo episode in JED, as it happened in Alexandira, and FRA as well but the result was different (as it should have been)

fact remains, with the various in-house mafia's, some nationalities get away with being part of the lowest common denominatiors this company is build around.. we have some very professional, and we have some that shouldn't even have a drivers license.

as for the Capt in CDG, everyone knows he already has a very poor reputaion within the ranks, and is seen as one who thinks he knows more than NASA.
I'm sorry to say that, but it's true and nearly everyone I fly with has a negative comment towards him.


Poisoned by Compromise
Krunch

[whitebrain]

Sure we have some professiona and some shouldn't have a drivers license, want to know to which cat you belong

fact remains, with the various in-house mafia's, some nationalities get away with being part of the lowest common denominatiors this company is build around.. we have some very professional, and we have some that shouldn't even have a drivers license.

as for the Capt in CDG, everyone knows he already has a very poor reputaion within the ranks, and is seen as one who thinks he knows more than NASA.
I'm sorry to say that, but it's true and nearly everyone I fly with has a negative comment towards him.

[whitebrain]

it seems you spend you flying time with you F/O assessing others pilots what a professional Captain you are.



as for the Capt in CDG, everyone knows he already has a very poor reputaion within the ranks, and is seen as one who thinks he knows more than NASA.
I'm sorry to say that, but it's true and nearly everyone I fly with has a negative comment towards him.


Poisoned by Compromise
Krunch

[goldstar]

whitebrain

COPY, PASTE :D

[shneidertrophy]

Whitebrain,

maybe you should mind your own business in Dubai, trying to save the soapbubble, as it is very clear you havent got a clue what is going on here in Qatar Airways!

This guy has a bad track record, should not be flying in a left seat and was spotted on the safety office's radar screen already several times! This incident could have been avoided by the company!

Thats a fact!

[EGGW]

Keep it calm boys, or you get time in the cooler.

And please try and use the quote function above, if you want to use part of other's posts, makes for easier reading :ugh:

EGGW

[JungleJett]

Yeah specially some of the new joiners.....seems like we go pick them down the gutters......:}

[whitebrain]

well well, I guess the guy who spotted this Captain did not spot his fellow citizen from the kangarooland when he did a hard laning in JED

maybe I don't have a clue what is going Qatar Airways, but thanks to pprune.

it seems you have a good feed of the records from the flight safety officer, I thought it was confidential information, but here again.

now how about your records, did you get any feed from your safety officer.
as for the incident, you have waited the result of the investigation before Condemning your colleague as should do a professional pilot.

[shneidertrophy]

White brain,


the JED incident has been well documented here on PPRUNE, the instructor was put on suspension until the investigation cleared him and the blame was put on the training department, who should never have started experimenting with Qatari second officers on the A330 fleet in the first place!

So what does that have to do with this incident?

You claim to be a professional in aviation?

Have you ever been to CDG? If so you should know which " bretelle" we are talking about here...

Did you have a look at the pictures? Then you would know that the marks in the grass are not made by skidding sideways but where created by just rolling with a forward movement in the grass.

Both pilots where of the same North-African nationality. A WELL protected minority in this airline, known for cover up operations.

Safety office is working anonymously. Yeah right...another sign you do not have a clue how things work around here. Once a pilot builds up a reputation everyone knows about it....Safety office is just there to acknowledge the rumours


All clues are there, you just have to read in between the lines!

By the way, did you know that this crew was put on suspension as well but that both of them where called out on a flight yesterday by rostering. Guess they where not aware of the investigation and both pilots pretended there nose was bleeding so they went on the flight!

Another uninsured QR flight took to the skies....

Just happy my family was not on that one!

MAn....I stick with my first comment of my second post...problems enough for you to comment on over-there in DXB

[BusyB]

Went in and out of CDG that morning and I can assure you that the taxiways were very icy. Great care needed.:ok:

[pool]

Connections and partisanship help, not only at QF and not only for cover-ups. In another ME big airline some very senior chap of similar origin gets to collect a new bird at the factory. Flight back with 3FOs, 2 of them girls, maybe the only ones on the fleet and very junior .... Just wonder what probabilty it takes for a computer to come up with such a roster! It's not 72 virgins, I know, but still nicely connected. :p
Thinking about a conversion .....

Have a safe flight!

[LIBYA_LION]

The F/o Is From The Same North Africa Country.

[PIPE RIDER]

By any chance is the F/O related to anyone who was a training chief on 330??

[AFD]

This just in: Captain was demoted to F/O for six months. F/O has been fired.


are you talking about the cdg event?

[Fubaliera]

i just saw the f/o a few minutes ago in the clubhouse at ain khaled. He said it was the capt taxing but didnt mention any disiplanary action. I hope the best for him

[Xaxa]

So why double standards? If they need to fire someone, why FO? Why not both? Or just the captain? :bored:

[Fubaliera]

I hope in fact he was not asked to return to his home country but unfortunatley he is on probation. If true thats probably the reason.

[PIPE RIDER]

I wouldn't be surprised this will be the cowards choice from QR, is better just to fire the guys and give an example, than looking thru the training files or the person who clear him/them and see if there has been any mistakes during the training that can be improved.

Feedback or any inputs to the training in this company are "not allowed" (with indian motion in the head please), but anyways after the circus they did on january the 1st what can we expect?????

[fatbus]

Refresh my mind , what happened on Jan 1st? thanks

[LIBYA_LION]

there has been any mistakes during the training that can be improved.

U cannot make a person ways of life attitude and manner improve.
If you have a bad attitude then it is going to be bad for you.

[qatari001]

the JED incident has been well documented here on PPRUNE, the instructor was put on suspension until the investigation cleared him and the blame was put on the training department, who should never have started experimenting with Qatari second officers on the A330 fleet in the first place!


Oh really, I m just wondering how come other airlines managed to put Cadets directly on widebody planes without any problems... In QR itself, many Second Officers who joined on A320 or A300 made it without any problems at the time where they had to complete only 84 sectors! and Guess what most of them been told they were doing even better than those "experienced" FOs.
Yes, its more logical for a cadet to start on a 320, but a Jet is a Jet, size doesn't really matter! what really matters is the level. So recruitment team should be more strict....
Hard landings or any other incidents can happen to anyone even to a 20 000hrs Capt! but again Its easier to blame a low experiened pilot.
Did you have a look at the pictures? Then you would know that the marks in the grass are not made by skidding sideways but where created by just rolling with a forward movement in the grass.

You must be an expert then to know what happened just by looking at the picture on a relaxed environnement. This could have happened to you buddy!
I spoke to the crew who took the aircraft that day to CDG, yes they made it safely until the gate but said it was very slippery and could hardly see the taxiways and all covered with snow/ice. It was the day after CDG experienced heavy snow and most flights were cancelled!
You know Incidents/Accidents happens even to the best pilots in the best airlines as well, AF 340 in toronto to name 1 ....may be its easier to blame the pilots specially if they were from the "the 3rd world" isnt it??
Both pilots where of the same North-African nationality. A WELL protected minority in this airline, known for cover up operations.
This just in: Captain was demoted to F/O for six months. F/O has been fired. this info seems to be true...
shneidertrophy, I m just wondering how come this happens to a "WELL PROTECTED" minority ??:ugh::ugh: Even though no damage was found on the landing gear,and thanks god no injured people or anything. They just had to replace 2 wheels and did some inspections...
It didn t cost 6M$ to company neither.... So I m just wondering who is the well protected minority these days??!!! :rolleyes:

The FO was really unlucky to be on that situation as he was PNF on that sector, and from what I heard it was his 1st flight after release on the fleet.

[White Knight]

Sounds to me like the F/O's a scapegoat (about right for 'goat' airways:hmm:) for a deeper seated problem at QR.....

AF the best pilots:}:} That gave me a laugh:p

[qatari001]

AF the best pilots That gave me a laugh
No one can be considered best pilot in aviation. It was just an irony and an example of a major big airline who have strict selection process for pilots and very high standards of training; but yet the well "experienced" pilots on that AF 340 in toronto case almost turned up to a disaster...
It was the case to any other major airlines like BA, AA...etc AF was just an example...

Happy landings :ok:

[4krew]

While NASA is not open for recruting these guys are there at QR "teaching" the pilots, have they "NASA WANNABEs" learned their own lesson, at QR OR NOT?

[knotaloud]

4krew?

I'm sure it's cold in Anchorage so perhaps you should spend less time outdoors? Only a frozen brain cell could produce that rubbish!
Anybody understand what he(?)'s on about?

[GMDS]

The FO was really unlucky to be on that situation as he was PNF on that sector, and from what I heard it was his 1st flight after release on the fleet

If this is true and he has really been fired based just on this incident, he schould be considered lucky to no longer be part of such a dismal outfit.:yuk:

[Qatari515]

Before this tread turns into a "rotten egg throwing contest" once more I just wanted to put in this:

This could have happened to everyone! Certainly if the Wx conditions where as described before! CDG is a difficult place, especially during the taxi phase.

Astronaut pilots are a product of someone's mind and do not actually exist in real life!

That goes as well for the Qatari second officers! Qatari 001, your remark about second officer training is totally wrong as far as I am concerned. A jet is jet???? Who made you believe that one?
Some companies indeed do have second officers start on a widebody jet BUT...(to name a few)

CX has them flying on the jumpseat for almost 2 years before they can even touch the controls below FL200!

SIA has a training program which includes almost 35 hours in a learjet before they can come near to any of their planes!

EK has a very extensive training program including lots of JS rides as well!

None of these airlines mentioned here have a single aisle fleet to train their cadets on so they have no other option. I am sure if they would have A320s they would use that fleet to train them on ISO an A330 or B777!

So for QR to even think that the Qatari second officers, coming straight from that joke they call a college with 200hrs under their belts, would be well off starting their careers on the A330 was a huge mistake from the beginning! Not only have they been fooling the SOs themselves, they have been putting the whole operation in danger by doing so! And all this because of an ego question??? Nice one!:mad:

Its always a good idea to wait for the final outcome of an investigation before you start shooting down colleagues!

Training department in this airline DOES need lots of attention still.

The JED incident has nothing to do with this at all!

If the disciplinary actions where as they are described over-here, once more this airline shows it is still in its infantile stage in aviation! Witch hunting has been abandoned by most major and self-respecting players in the field, but here it remains the favorite pass-time of the powers in place!

Thats all folks....GT awaits me!:ugh:

[mach 84]

it seems strange to me that a first officer gets sacked when the captain is taxiing the aircraft and ending up in the mud! but maybe this is the quatar logig. what has a first officer to do with taxiing when it is done usually by the captain. most likely the quatar management has got sand in their brain.
:ugh:

[oryxbollocks]

The word is that the instruction to fire the pilots came from 'above'!

As a mistake is a mistake, that suggestion was politely rejected in favour of a temporay demotion for the captain and a 'warning letter' for the FO.

However, a warning letter while on probation normally means 'the end' and word is the FO mouthed a lot of grief to the fleet (not sure what that means?) and lost the sympathy vote.

He may be terminated but is currently under suspension.

GB

[canflystick]

just to clearfy above is all mighty or all:= baker

[LIBYA_LION]

I think the reason he was fired is because he had a bad attitude when he was being asked about the problem on the taxiing story. He might of just got a letter on his file but to show a bad attitude in the investtigation is a easy way to be fired. also you are on probaition. not a smart thing too do for this pilot.

[astronaute]

"Astronaut pilots are a product of someone's mind and do not actually exist in real life!"

No,no ,no ,I don t work for QR . And yes I exist !!! ;)

[thesilversurfer]

No,no ,no ,I don t work for QR . And yes I exist !!!



Hey there Buddy,

Maybe you are just an "Ass Straw Not"..:ok:

[whitebrain]

I think the reason he was fired is because he had a bad attitude when he was being asked about the problem on the taxiing story. He might of just got a letter on his file but to show a bad attitude in the investtigation is a easy way to be fired. also you are on probaition. not a smart thing too do for this pilot.

What do you mean by bad attitude at the investigation. and it means it was you, you ll just go on your belly.;) as your name suggest.

[punkalouver]

WhiteBrain

FYI:
yes I am a Capt here.
I dont support the end result of what happened to Capt Kangaroo episode in JED, as it happened in Alexandira, and FRA as well but the result was different (as it should have been)



Not aware of these incidents. What happened in these ones.

[LIBYA_LION]

Not sure what you mean whire brain. They are from a different north Africa country. begin with an A and not an L. :D

[whitebrain]

i am sure his is A, I don't think L have enough courage to say what he thinks, they love to put big names like lions tigers and so and when it come the real and true things, they just do what their leader do.;)

[Capt Krunch]

Whitebrain:

I realize that english is not your mother tongue, but your post makes no sense and is impossible to understand at best.


Poisoned by compromise
Krunch

[LIBYA_LION]

Thank you, I thought i was the only one who did not understand this whitebrain message.

[B787J]

What you lame brains arguing about ??? Dont you know that there are no SOP's in QR ? And Even if there were its all out of the window /.....

[4krew]

A friend saw THE PLACE at CDG and according to him the ACFT missed an entry going east on A loop to join Delta going north, if you miss this A1 taxiway which is the smooth rounded continuation of the ALPHA loop to join D you have a sharp turn left, you are not supposed to go left, so the snowy slippery taxiways were not the point and MAYBE he decided to join this Delta txy instead of going 180 anywhere in front and got stuck. The instruction was Alpha and Delta and that was what he tried exactly but if you go NORTH you have to use A1.

As per the FO punishment there must be something we don't know YET for sure, time and beer will bring it up.

There is an issue of CRM there plus experience or lack of it, involved in a multi nationality operation where the base DOHA and the airline does not help bring good people, out 1700 CV s EK got QR did received 1 or 2, so the airline has to FORMAT the pilots it has, eg CRJ and 727 to name a few, some of these are present on a daily basis. Unfortunately the airline needs an accident WITHOUT life loss on JAA or FAA grounds then investigators will pin point every detail that will be useful to the company, by itself, taking 200 hour pilot to an A330 plus non EFIS capt, they believe they are right AND DOING GREAT 5 star airline etc and problem is growing latent

[shneidertrophy]

My thoughts exactly!

Thank you very much...

Its about time this so called 5 star airline wakes up and starts smelling the roses. Incidents like this one are more common than we all know (most of them are covered up) and become more and more frequent.

And what is our management and training department doing? Nil/Nada/Zip! Too afaraid to have to tell the little big man that flights have to be cancelled due to crew shortage!

Last few weeks we have seen all sorts of intresting things happening.

A330 in the grass

De-icing in Karachi (????) using plain cold water

Hard landings

....


And in the meanwhile people are being released to fly to CAT C airports based on their number on the seniority list and not performance! There used to be a time when, in order to fly to KTM for example, the company thoroughly selected people on skills and knowledge. Not anymore it seems!


I can not help thinking about the facts in case that NYC miracle on the Hudson would have been one of the QR planes? Disaster for sure!

Five star airline...:ugh:

[BusyB]

4krew,
Nowhere near the loop.:bored:

[IcarusRising]

NASA Pilots !. Please stop the nonsensical statements. You discredit your profession, your workplace and your fellow aviators.

Cool it, do a good job, learn from mistakes and stay safe. :D

[NoJoke]

:ok: Nicely said IR.

[PIPE RIDER]

Couldn't agree more with Icarus, let's do our job but keep it cool please do not fall for the QR schyzoprenia (sh..t don't know how to spell it right), already some less confident CPs are not letting the F/Os taxi, let's be professional and let our F/Os grow their confidence too.... please don't blow it out of proportions....