View Full Version : Flybe at EDDS

5th Jan 2009, 15:54
Seems like the runway was a little short....

Do they still have the NPA for 07?

5th Jan 2009, 16:15
Thought a tad more information might be helpful......

A Flybe Embraer 145 operating BHX-STR with 15 pax on board overran the runway on landing in STR at around 15:30CET today.

No-one injured, no apparent damage to the aircraft, airport still closed at 17:20 according to the Süddeutsche Zeitung, one of the quality dailies.

5th Jan 2009, 17:41
For even further information see link.

Lets not start mentioning fog and associated events. Lets remain professional, we don't yet know the circumstances around the incident.

The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?article=412df767&opt=0)

:ok: MAB

5th Jan 2009, 17:49
That's a loooong runway too. I'm sure there was a similar incident there about 4 years ago too involving either an embraer or a CRJ?

5th Jan 2009, 17:56
I have landed there many times in the past. On one occasion landing towards the west, before the runway was lengthened, at this time of year, the runway was certainly more slippery than anything else I can readily recall.

[Note: passing on personal observation, and not suggesting any link to this incident]

5th Jan 2009, 18:00
On one occasion landing towards the west, before the runway was lengthened, at this time of year, the runway was certainly more slippery than anything else I can readily recall.

Yes, we have experienced the very same, ok, some moons ago...

5th Jan 2009, 18:12
07 has a pretty good downhill slope too - does certainly help in situations like these. Good to see that all are ok!

5th Jan 2009, 18:35
07 is uphill.


5th Jan 2009, 18:43
Runway 3345m *45m
Both ILS Cat 1-3

I saw the Apron Marshaller on the Runway doing skiding tests ....

Weather wasnt tooo bad today ....
Strange ,4 years ago Swiss ERJ had same Problems

I heard that Alitalia used different Settings if runway 07 was in use during snowfall....

5th Jan 2009, 18:44

When they lengthened the runway (by about 900metres iirc) back in the early/mid 1990's, the extra length allowed them enough clearance from the Weidachehohe (sp) (albeit with a displaced threshhold) to install an official ILS to 07 or 08 as was.

Doubtless you remember flying the NDB/DME to 08 using the 'not to be followed' ILS:ok:

So I presume the NPA will still exist, but there is a standard ILS as well.

5th Jan 2009, 18:47

07 being uphill doesn't fit my mental model. I would put as very much downhill. I well remember taxying out in A320's for a westerly departure in high summer without brake fans and it being quite problematical on the downslope past General Aviation area etc.

5th Jan 2009, 18:49
07 is, most definately, downhill. In the order of 0.8% if memory serves.

Edited: Found it, 07 -0.9%. Also NDB long since notam'd as removed, there is still a VOR option though.

5th Jan 2009, 19:00

Thx, haven't been there for a long time.

So it is >3km rwy with ILS, hmm.....

5th Jan 2009, 19:07
RWY 07 Elevation 1267ft
RWY 25 1181 ft

Both Cat3b

5th Jan 2009, 19:43
In fact no more NDB`s at STR.

5th Jan 2009, 19:44
Landed a 145 myself a few weeks back when they reported braking action good (rwy 25). Was a bit of a surprise, coming out of clouds, to find the runway covered in snow and on touchdown braking action was poor.It took some distance before we stopped sliding and the brakes became effective. After we landed they closed the runway for 20 min or so to clear the snow...

5th Jan 2009, 20:01
I flew the 145 that plane has only a few spoiler (which are useless) and some 145 are even with no thrust reversers installed (cheaper)

5th Jan 2009, 21:31
Cityflyer G-EMBD overran EDDV 27L 14/08/2005

http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_005/nn_226462/EN/Publications/Investigation_20Report/2005/Report__05__EX006__EMB145__Hanover,templateId=raw,property=p ublicationFile.pdf/Report_05_EX006_EMB145_Hanover.pdf

5th Jan 2009, 21:58
I think you'll find it was BA Connect emb 145 that overran in Hannover.

Emb 145's have had problems with brakes. There has been previous overruns in stuttgart a few years ago, but different company's involved !

6th Jan 2009, 01:38
Embraer 145s have no problems with its brake system and the spoilers are not useless.
The landing performance challenges on the E145 without thrust reversers arise on contaminated runways combined with high approach speeds for this size of aircraft in the range of 130 to 145 KIAS and an aquaplaning speed in the range of 105 KIAS. In those conditions, the aircraft is demanding and there is no margin at all for errors, be it wrong friction coefficients, long flares, too high approach speeds etc.
The similar incident @ EDDS some of you are referring to occurred on January 26 2006 and involved a SWISS Embraer 145LU. Weather conditions at the time of the incident have been quite similar, i.e. ATIS info available to the crew was from 0650Z with RWY 07 ILS in use, Visibility 1400m in light snowfall , wind 120/1 with -3/-4°C and 1012hPa, VV not measurable, RWY Report wet with slush patches and BA good.
The SWISS crew elected to perform an approach with the Head Up Guidance System (HUGS) in AIII mode, i.e. landing Flap 22 were used (Flap 45 is full flap position and cannot be used for HUGS AIII approaches). With 3 crew and 40 Pax, landing mass was 18’600 kg (max landing mass E145LU is 19’300 kg) and corresponding approach speed was 138 KIAS. The A/C touched down on RWY 07 at 0717Z, 770m from the threshold at a speed of 128 KIAS. Two minutes before touchdown, tower advised the crew about “…be advised, BA medium” together with the landing clearance.
All E145s of SWISS were not fitted with thrust reversers, i.e. only aerodynamic drag plus carbon brakes available for deceleration. LDA for RWY07 is 3045m. The aircraft however, overran the RWY while the crew was trying to exit to the left via TWY A .The aircraft turned around the yaw axis and ended heading 210° about 60m in the grass between TWY A and threshold RWY25. No damage to the aircraft and ground equipment occurred.
Looking at the performance data of the SWISS E145s reveals that with a 19 ton aircraft in 0-wind conditions and BA good (according to ATIS) results in a landing distance of 1800m for flaps 22° on a 0%-slope runway. BA medium changes LD to 2800m ! A 1% down slope of the runway increases the LD by 15% in BA medium conditions. As EDDS RWY07 has between 0.7 and 0.9% downslope, adding 10% to the LD of a 0%-slope RWY yields 3080m. No way the SWISS could make it there…
The initial german aircraft accident investigation report (BFU) on the SWISS E145 incident in EDDS reveals that a B737-800 which landed shortly before the SWISS E145 reported after the landing to the tower that BA was initially “…medium” and then shorly after vacating the RWY into TWY A changed their grading to “…rather poor than medium”. Tower copied the info, however only transmitted “…be advised, BA medium” to the SWISS crew. For info, a BA medium to poor grading yields to roughly 3200m LD for an E145 without reversers.
Time 0544Z : EDDS Skiddometer measurements with A: 72 – B: 76 – C: 77
Time 0650Z : ATIS Info “BA good”
Time 0711Z : Info B737-800 to Tower “BA…rather poor than medium”
Time 0713Z : First contact of SWISS crew with EDDS tower
Time 0715Z : Landing clearance issued to SWISS crew with “…be advised, BA medium”
Time 0717Z : Touchdown on RWY07
Time 0722Z : New skiddo values measured shortly after the incident with A: 48 – B: 39 – C: 37
and values for sector C changing between 21 and 65 !

I am very keen to learn about final flap settings and most importantly what runway state info the crew received by the ATIS and by tower shortly before landing.

6th Jan 2009, 15:47
If this would happen to Ryanair there would be 25 pages of replys already!

Why not if this happens to an other Airline?

6th Jan 2009, 16:49
If this would happen to Ryanair there would be 25 pages of replys already!

Why not if this happens to an other Airline?

When I started this thread it was removed for whatever reason within seconds.

After asking where it has gone it suddenly reappeared.....

6th Jan 2009, 17:51
Perhaps because it meant bugger all to most readers. Only after the second poster put some meat on the bones was it returned to this forum.

6th Jan 2009, 19:57

I think this forum shoud now close

Crew/Pax all OK


lets await the official report and until them no gossip as to want happened

Good Day

Kind Regards

Sir George Cayley
8th Jan 2009, 19:41
THe German BFU and UK AAIB have initiated a "serious incident" investigation. So hopefully, all will be revealled.:ok:

Anyone posting from here on in until the report is published should waft away the smell of BS both before they post, during the post and after it.

Unless you were the Cpt, Co pilot. ATCO or Ops i/c snow clearing EDDS.

Go on dare you:ugh:

Sir George Cayley

8th Jan 2009, 20:36