MODE S at LACC enroute.... [Archive]

Radarspod

5th Jan 2009, 14:44

Definitely not with iFACTS.

It's a shame really, considering Mode S data has been available at the centre since 2004. I don't know why we bothered.....

The system used by LAC at Swanwick (LACC doesn't exist anymore:ok:) would needs some serious upgrade to make the Mode S data available. It's in the plan, as FDP_Walla suggests.

RS

Minesapint

5th Jan 2009, 16:24

There is no European mandate on the use of Mode S EHS :=. Last I heard it was 2010 for LAC, irrespective of iFACTS. You will at least get SFL displayed and the plan was always 'as soon as possible' with CFL/SFL checking in IFACTS or EFD.:ok:

FDP_Walla

5th Jan 2009, 16:47

OOPS - sorry 2012/2103 is mandate for enroute datalink.

What aspects of Mode-S are you asking about? Minesapint is correct in his statements, but if you mean Mode-S for flight Id then still a long way off.

Minesapint

5th Jan 2009, 21:13

Thats right. I am assuming its the display of downlinked airborne parameters (DAP's) that we are talking about. Aircraft ID is currently a long way off but the EEC is in the process of changing all that.

Its easy to get confused with these dates, 2012 is I understand the date for OLDI changes and some FPL changes.

G-SPOTs Lost

5th Jan 2009, 21:41

Considering the equipment was mandatory 2 years ago at vast cost to operators. Its a great shame its benefits are not more widely used.

Minesapint

6th Jan 2009, 17:23

Very true. The EEC are proposing to legislate Mode S flight identity but that takes a few years. The CAA needs to push airlines and airport operators much harder - they need to play the game and provide the required ground surveillance equipment.

classicwings

6th Jan 2009, 19:12

The system used by LAC at Swanwick (LACC doesn't exist anymorehttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif)

So if Swanwick is no longer known as LACC - London Area Control Centre, given that TC have now 'settled in' with Area Control, what does LAC stand for then?:confused:

BDiONU

6th Jan 2009, 20:38

So if Swanwick is no longer known as LACC - London Area Control Centre, given that TC have now 'settled in' with Area Control, what does LAC stand for then?:confused:
London Area Control and London Terminal Control based at NATS Swanwick Centre.

BD

Radarspod

6th Jan 2009, 21:45

Exactly! We've been having it drummed into us that LAC and LTC are units at Swanwick Centre. They even changed the sign at the entrance to Swanwick Centre from NATS LACC to NATS Swanwick.

At least the systems are in at Prestwick for Mode S on day one - even if CAA DAP are dragging their heels on extending Mode S EHS airspace outside the LTMA.

Does that mean we end up with MAC and ScAC units at Prestwick Centre next year?:confused: (thread creep, sorry)

RS

classicwings

6th Jan 2009, 22:38

Ok thanks for your reply BD. Wouldn't it have just been better to simply revert back to LATCC (London Area & Terminal Control Centre) once TC had been reunited with AC once again as it had been previously at West Drayton before things started to move down the M3??:}

Ok, I know West Drayton was called LTCC for a while during the transition period.........BUT It just seems a bit odd NATS have now abbreviated Swanwick to LAC when both AC and TC are both together again.

Radarspod, when you say Exactly! We've been having it drummed into us that LAC and LTC are units at Swanwick Centre. do you mean they are telling you it is two separate units working under one roof or is it one unit working in perfect harmony with each other?:confused::E

Radarspod

7th Jan 2009, 11:52

I don't think it makes that much difference which way you look at it. From my point of view, each unit at the centre has their own airspace requirements, systems, etc. LTC and LAC watches are aligned at the centre but still seperate units (I think).

However, Swanwick as a 'centre' has a single safety team for example, covering all units at the centre (LTC, LAC & Ops engineering). It just depends on where you want to make the cut.

The point I was trying to make (badly) is that we should not be referring to Swanwick as LACC, as it isn't any more, and neither is it NERC(:ugh:) or LATCC (unless you are talking about Mil) ;)

classicwings

7th Jan 2009, 12:14

Ok Radarspod thanks, that makes things a little clearer now. Blimey, seems a bit of a head scratcher even for NATS employees and I don't even work for them!:p:confused::p

LATCC Mil I assume, continue to operate at Swanwick as they did in the MASOR at West Drayton?

Yup, me too never liked that 'NERC' name they originally gave it! Its a word more commonly used to have a dig a some one isn't it? U know, 'You NERC!' :}:E:}:E

BDiONU

7th Jan 2009, 12:43

Does that mean we end up with MAC and ScAC units at Prestwick Centre next year?:confused: (thread creep, sorry)
No because ScACC and MACC close and amalgamate into Prestwick Centre as a single unit with a common Method of Operations.

BD

landedoutagain

7th Jan 2009, 15:11

a common Method of Operations

yup, the maccites and scaccites are all going to turn up on day one and say, "we're doing it our way" :}:}

PeltonLevel

7th Jan 2009, 18:54

a common Method of Operations Probably not until NAS has been totally replaced - there may be a period when MAC is on NAS and ScAC is on the new system. There's not much point in coming up with a common MOPS if there is going to be a divergence within a year or so!
Wasn't there a thread dedicated to this subject?

BDiONU

7th Jan 2009, 20:14

Probably not until NAS has been totally replaced - there may be a period when MAC is on NAS and ScAC is on the new system. There's not much point in coming up with a common MOPS if there is going to be a divergence within a year or so!
Sorry but you've lost me here :confused: PC Ops room has NAS, NODE, SIRS, VCCS etc throughout, hence a single MOPS. NAS isn't going to be replaced for quite some time and that replacement is iTEC.

BD

eglnyt

7th Jan 2009, 21:01

The NAS replacement is iTEC but it may not be deployed to all centres at the same time. If it isn't the ex MAC sectors are more likely to move to iTEC when LAC does rather than when ScAC does.

PPRuNe Radar

7th Jan 2009, 22:16

Why ? MACC and ScACC will be operating as a single Centre. Why would you split a quarter of the room on to a totally different system ??

PeltonLevel

8th Jan 2009, 05:28

Why would you split a quarter of the room on to a totally different system??Have you looked at the boundaries between the Volumes of Responsibility of MACC+ScACC and Swanwick? You could end up with multiple inter-system handovers on a flight climbing into Scottish airspace. The operators might not be too keen on any constraints which might be applied to limit these.
(And this still seems to be the wrong thread!)

BDiONU

8th Jan 2009, 06:25

Why ? MACC and ScACC will be operating as a single Centre. Why would you split a quarter of the room on to a totally different system ??
Correct and soon after EFD goes live there will be cross training between the Local Area Groups.

BD

BDiONU

8th Jan 2009, 06:30

The NAS replacement is iTEC but it may not be deployed to all centres at the same time. If it isn't the ex MAC sectors are more likely to move to iTEC when LAC does rather than when ScAC does.
The deployment of iTEC is a work in progress and, irrespective of the Manchester Shelf problem, Prestwick Centre will be a single integrated centre. I cannot envisage any circumstance where a single centre and its associated systems would be diverged with some sectors operating on one system and some on another (ignoring iFACTS for the moment). NATS is converging systems (anyone heard of the roadmap?) so that we eventually have a single system at 2 centres (LAC and LTC will combine at some point) Swanwick & Prestwick.

BD

anotherthing

8th Jan 2009, 11:29

...soon after EFD goes live...
That'll be if EFD goes live for TMA sectors...

BDiONU

8th Jan 2009, 11:54

That'll be if EFD goes live for TMA sectors...
One system across the Ops room, EFD.

BD

anotherthing

8th Jan 2009, 12:12

if it is proven to work in the TMA environment...

BDiONU

8th Jan 2009, 17:04

if it is proven to work in the TMA environment...
I thought I was fairly close to the EFD team but you're obviously privy to information I'm not aware of.

BD

PeltonLevel

8th Jan 2009, 19:19

BDiONU
(anyone heard of the roadmap?)Anyone heard of Project 3909?
Those with access to project documents may care to look at
Operational ATC Assessment of a Phased Transition to iTEC and NAS and Related Systems Changes to Support iTEC Phased Transition

They may have been produced by people who are suffering from caffeine OD from too much time in Starbucks, but the options proposed are still under consideration.

Minesapint

8th Jan 2009, 20:34

Initially NAS will drive the MACC sectors and iTEC will drive ScAC at PC.
To clarify - this relates to the first phase of ITEC, EFD may well go into LTC first as its an option.

BDiONU

8th Jan 2009, 20:57

Initially NAS will drive the MACC sectors and iTEC will drive ScAC at PC.
I hate to disagree with you mate but iTEC is years away from deployment and PC 'O' date is less than a year off and it is going live with NAS in the Ops room.
ScACC and MACC cease to exist at PC 'O' date, all the sectors integrate into Prestwick Centre.

BD

BDiONU

9th Jan 2009, 07:42

Anyone heard of Project 3909?
Those with access to project documents may care to look at
Operational ATC Assessment of a Phased Transition to iTEC and NAS and Related Systems Changes to Support iTEC Phased Transition
.
Thanks for that, anyone in NATS should be able to access the MRI (http://natsnet/cm/ProjectsDocs.asp) (Master Records Index). Interesting to see the prophesy of the Manchester shelf issues (raised many years ago) come to fruition.
I particularly enjoyed the ATC document (http://livelink/livelink/livelink.exe/Open/5077615)which serves to show the gap between the engineering solution and the ATC 'need'.
Lots more work needed though, especially if they're going to put some PC sectors on iTEC and leave some on NAS for a long period of time during the phased transition. Anyone taking any bets on when iTEC will be introduced, to the nearest decade :}
They may have been produced by people who are suffering from caffeine OD from too much time in Starbucks, but the options proposed are still under consideration.
Don't think the ATC author has time to do Starbucks given the hours he spends at work, but the engineers..... ;)

BD

goldfrog

9th Jan 2009, 21:23

Don't think the ATC author has time to do Starbucks given the hours he spends at work, but the engineers..... http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif
OI! BD you and I will have words

Minesapint

10th Jan 2009, 10:39

BD is faster than a speeding bullet and waers his Y fronts on the outside - you will never catch him :cool:

BDiONU

10th Jan 2009, 11:06

Don't wear Y fronts, prefer to go commando. Now there's an image you're going to have in your head all day :}

BD

BwatchGRUNT

12th Jan 2009, 11:41

mode S I believe in the LAC ops room by Feb2010, which is coincidental with the planned iFACTS albeit limited sectors 'O' date. If and when iFACTS slips we have been assured than MODE S still comes in as one project is not dependant on the other.