Refueling while deboarding.... Is it allowed??

[Wirelock]

Hi to all,

was travelling on a well known low cost carrier yesterday and noticed that they were refueling before all the passengers had deboarded..

i had been talking to a pilot friend recently and he had told me that a co pilot had reported the pilot for allowing fueling to take place while passengers were deboarding....

so who is right??

[LH2]

As far as I can remember from my ATPLs, yes of course it is allowed. There are certain requirements to go with it. I can't quite remember the exact details but I'm sure someone else will fill in.

It's nothing to do with being low-cost, btw. KLM's AMS-DOH-BAH-AMS round tripper is as good an example as any of refuelling done with pax onboard.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Its allowable, but generally there are specific procedures to be followed. e.g. door to be manned, fuelling supervisor to be aware etc. All needs to be specified in the Ops manual so there is not automatically a 'correct' answer.

Perhaps your friends company has no procedures in place and so have elected not to permit it.

pb

[Wirelock]

well i know my friends company have a procedure for refuelling while boarding but it not for deboarding... but i take it that this is a company preference??

[Storminnorm]

Refuelling is a matter of timing really, depending on how
close it is to the Stated time of Departure.
The closer the A/C is to it's STD, the quicker the refuel
gets started. Hopefully.
Refuelling from hydrants is quite straight-forward, whereas
DEfuelling isn't, and will need a bowser being "Available" to
accept the fuel coming off the aircraft. Which is not always
a straight transfer onto another of the Company aircraft.
Refuelling, defuelling with Pax boarding/de-boarding is
allowed but subject to many ifs and buts!

[Wirelock]

hello rainboe....
no i am not trying to nail anything... but since you ask let me reply to your questions.
i know refuelling was taking place because there was a fuel bowser attached to the aircraft. by the time i got to board the bowser was detached.
pipes attached??? well i can only assume that you mean the fuel hose. as far as i know this is the normal way to transfer fuel from the bowser to the aircraft... maybe you know of some other method star trek style??

as for trying to take a pilots scalp... no that was not my intention at all.
i merley asked a question and was looking for some information. maybe you noticed i had not mentioned the name of the airline or the airport or any details of the flight.

[indiscipline_girl]

As has been pointed out, it seems to be company specific depending on what is in their ops manual.

Our airline allows refuelling or de-fuelling with pax boarding or de-boarding.

It is subject to various provisos such as someone occupying the flight deck, doors manned , pax remain seated with seatbelt signs off, airbridges or steps open and unobstructed etc.

Basically to allow an evacuation if necessary.

[The Real Slim Shady]

EU Ops allows refuelling with passengers on board, embarking or disembarking subject to certain criteria.

Each airport may require certain additional restrictions, or may ban refuelling etc according to their local bye laws or national laws e.g. Italy does not allow this.

Finally the company may prescribe tighter regulations in their Ops Manual which they have submitted to the respective Authority for approval.

[BOAC]

I do think it is worth reminding ourselves of the OP's ACTUAL question?i had been talking to a pilot friend recently and he had told me that a co pilot had reported the pilot for allowing fueling to take place while passengers were deboarding....

so who is right??.......and the answer is - it depends on the airline's SOPs. If this was 'reported' it will be 'sorted' as they say, one way or the other. There is no way any of our resident experts here will know the answer.:ugh:

[CR2]

Rainboe, I generally agree with what you are saying, but cool off! :eek:

[Romeo India Xray]

i know refuelling was taking place because there was a fuel bowser attached to the aircraft. by the time i got to board the bowser was detached.


Perhaps not - could have been a small uplift, how long had the AC been on stand etc.

Yes, you are allowed to re/defuel with PAX on board (subject to SOPs allowing it). You may do this with them boarding (the seatbelt signs will be OFF when you get on). You may also do this while they are de-planing. In my opinion this is wrong (from a safety point of view at least). If a person is getting off the aircraft, they will be in "collect hand baggage" mode. Try to then tell them that they need to get off PDQ and they will likely carry on looking for their baggage. :ugh:

RIX

[sthaussiepilot]

CASA gives written permission to the airline upon their request to re-fuel with PAX aboard......but is it set to one aircraft type? or when an airline (for example Qantas or VB) requests is it for all types of aircraft within their fleet? or is it dependant on the request by the airline?

[Jimmy Do Little]

Hi to all,

was travelling on a well known low cost carrier yesterday and noticed that they were refueling before all the passengers had deboarded..

i had been talking to a pilot friend recently and he had told me that a co pilot had reported the pilot for allowing fueling to take place while passengers were deboarding....

so who is right??


There are several issues that need to be addressed prior to refueling with passengers onboard. Regardless of whether they are disembarking, boarding, or simply "Onboard" it's considered "Refueling with Passengers Onboard."

1. The Airline must have procedures in place in their FOM (Flight Operations Manual) AND those procedures must be in accordance with the aircraft manufactures recommendations. Furthermore, those procedures must be approved by the Civil Aviation Authority having regulatory control over that specific airline.

2. The Airport must "Approve" fueling with passengers onboard. The airport can do this many ways; including, a "blanket" approval for all; a "Blanket" disapproval for all; or "Specific" approvals for individual airlines.

3. The Flight Crew, Cabin Attendants, airline ground staff, and airport staff MUST be fully briefed on the procedure - which is somewhat involved - and must be ready to act in the event of fire, leakage, spill, equipment failure, etc.

In my professional experience (28 years), unless the refueling with pax onboard is part of the normal operation for that specfic flight, it's more effort that it's worth to get this all set up. If it's a "one off" you're better off to suck up the delay than have to assemble this dog and pony show.

As an aside; it get's even more interesting with "Refueling with an engine running". Yes, that can also be approved!:ugh:

[Helen49]

Rainboe.....if you lose your sense of perspective so quickly, you must announce your identity on the PA so that I for one can avoid flying with you! The poor guy asked a simple question; subsequently confirmed that and you lay into him. Anyway it isn't your forum!!

Calm down old boy!

H49

[DA50driver]

Have any of you stopped to think about why we still have this as an issue to consider? I haven't heard of any airplanes blowing up while fueling for a long time. Could this be another carry over from the old days when some guy pulled a hose up on the wing next to a hot cylinder maybe? As much as I respect the guys that have been around longer than me I see a lot of wives tales in our business. Our technology has progressed quite a bit in the last few years and a lot of rules need to be reconsidered in my opinion. This would be one of them.

[parabellum]

The bit I find most objectionable is this:


"a co pilot had reported the pilot for allowing fueling to take place while passengers were deboarding"


And I believe that is what cranked Rainboe up too. Surely the co-pilot could have had a few quiet words with the Captain rather than running to the office? If the co-pilot was wrong he has now labelled himself throughout the company and if he was right, well, same end result really?

[Wirelock]

... so basically it down to the individual operator as to their procedures in this case... thanks for all (constructive) replies

[Wirelock]

Hi Rainboe,
Are you having fun making up things on this thread??? because quite clearly you are the one who thinks he knows everything but in fact you don't.
BOAC has pointed out that it is down to company procedure if refuelling while deboarding is allowed... so my thread starter question means that both cases are right!!!!!!

as for you saying that i have been 'wronged'..???? where have i mentioned anything about been wronged. the fact that i was neither deboarding or boarding this aircraft while fuelling was going on... so i cannot see how i would be, in your words, wronged

as an aviation professional, i feel that i should be able to come on this forum and ask these types of questions. i object to the likes of Rainboe shouting down simple questions on the basis on some fantasy that somehow i am obviously after somebody's scalp.
the FACT of the matter, Rainboe, is that you are person posting incorrect information on this thread . if anybody should be embarrased it should be you by your childish and fiction filled replies!!

[FlightDetent]

WL (to your post #22): Specific company procedures always apply, yet those must reflect the current regulatory requirements.
EU-OPS 1.305 Refuelling/defuelling with passengers embarking, on board or disembarking
... necessary precautions must be taken and the aeroplane must be properly manned by qualified personnel ready to initiate and direct an evacuation of the aeroplane by the most practical and expeditious means available. Appendix 1 to OPS 1.305
An operator must establish operational procedures for re/defuelling with passengers embarking, on board or disembarking to ensure the following precautions are taken:

(1) one qualified person must remain at a specified location during fuelling operations with passengers on board. This qualified person must be capable of handling emergency procedures concerning fire protection and fire-fighting,
handling communications and initiating and directing an evacuation;
(2) a two-way communication shall be established and shall remain available by the aeroplane's inter-communication system or other suitable means between the ground crew supervising the refuelling and the qualified personnel on board the aeroplane;
(3) crew, staff and passengers must be warned that re/defuelling will take place;
(4) “Fasten seat belts” signs must be off;
(5) “No smoking” signs must be on, together with interior lighting to enable emergency exits to be identified;
(6) passengers must be instructed to unfasten their seat belts and refrain from smoking;
(7) sufficient qualified personnel must be on board and be prepared for an immediate emergency evacuation;
(8) if the presence of fuel vapour is detected inside the aeroplane, or any other hazard arises during re/defuelling, fuelling must be stopped immediately;
(9) the ground area beneath the exits intended for emergency evacuation and slide deployment areas must be kept clear; and
(10) provision is made for a safe and rapid evacuation.

FD (the un-real)

[ShyTorque]

Rainboe, I think you should ask for a day off on flight safety grounds. You seem badly stressed. If you spoke to a passenger of mine like you "speak" here, you would be off the job in minutes.

[BOAC]

The bit I find most objectionable is this- that may well have 'cranked RB up' but where it went wildly off the rails was in blasting the OP for the reported actions of another and accusing the OP of trying to snitch. Lot of fuss about nothing, as usual.:hmm:

[misd-agin]

It might even be aircraft specific.

Not all aircraft have single point refueling. I'd guess that almost all the modern turboprops do but without mentioning the a/c, or company, who knows what the SOP is.

I doubt a large jet operator prohibits refueling while boarding or deplaning. Too much time would be lost trying to turn the a/c.

[CFM56-C3]

Just as a weird side note (and my first post. hi mum! :D). I can remember fixing a Virgin 738 and testing the PRAM. One of the automatic messages says "... while we're refueling please leave your seat belt off...".

One of the only limitations I can think of is no fueling during an electrical storm. Otherwise refuel away (allowing for your companies refuel procedures of course)

[L337]

I know I am wasting my breath, and Danny has gone AWOL, but it is supposed to be a Professional Pilots Network. This trash question should be in the spotters forum.

[GroundedSLF]

Just aas an aside - and apologies in advance if I upset you rainboe - I was once boarding a flight in Greece, via steps (front and back) while the aircraft was being refuelled. Cabin crew in the doorway, cant remember seeing any refuelers acting in a "supervisory" way - but I DID notice another passenger further back in the queue SMOKING on the way to the aircraft steps :ugh: (I guess the "smoking is permitted once outside the terminal" message kind of got mixed up!) - Anyhow, I mentioned it to the FA once at the top of the steps, and she dealt with it very professionally, a load bellow to the effect of "PUT THAT CIGARETTE OUT NOW!" followed by a few quiet words of explination on boarding seemed to do the trick.

[E & I]

The refuel incident referred to by Rainbow occured in September 2001 and was a 777 at Denver. As stated it was a fuel coupling failure, where the fuel was ignited by the hot exhaust.

As to refueling with passengers on board that is a matter for the airfield licencee.

In the UK taking into account the requirements of CAP 748, and the HSE Explosive atmosphere regulations (DSEAR). Plus of course your own companies risk assessments.

At Heathrow the BAA OSI 35/01 prohibits passengers within 6 meters of any fueling zone ( the vents, refuel pit or refuel vehicle).

Its just over 3 years since fuel vapour ignited at Buncefield and that cost Heathrow operators nearly £250000

Pax are regulaly boarding while fueling is taking place following laid down procedures. As far as I am aware with out any serious incidents.

[CY333]

for my airline is a no.
I know a Captain who reported an engineer because of this