RFDS Central Section

[PPRuNeUser0161]

As we are on the topic of the RFDS, whats the story with Central Section. Anyone like to comment on conditions at the various bases. I know they were employing pilots only on contract but I guess that stopped when Rudd got in? T and C's as well. The PC 12 looks here to stay with 3 or 4 new ones on the way.

I have also heard they will be establishing an Emergency Response Unit at Adelaide Airport with doctors, nurses and pilots at the base with a 15 minute time to airborne time. I have heard this a few times now so seems to be likely.

[Wally Mk2]

'SN' I'd be interested to know as well.
I know the AD base Hossy & the Darwin Hossy do a fair bit of business together but the RFDS can't really help as turbo prop planes are not suitable for this run.
15 mins to airborne is very ambitious though, will be very keep to see if this can be set-up & worked.


Wmk2

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So so quiet on the Central front. Must be good place!

SN

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Does anyone know if SC are still doing the contract pilot thing or did that go out with Howard?
SN

[Jamair]

15 mins to airborne is very ambitious Nah Wally, we managed an average call-to-airborne time of <5 minutes in the RW...... I think a 10-15 minute call-to-airborne is quite feasible.

[Wally Mk2]

We have 20 mins for our contractual requirements & fortunately the :"fat controllers" (bless their hearts) rarely enforce it as there's often issues that would blow that almost unrealistic time limit out the window. Less than 5 mins is simply not doable, takes that long to get dressed !:)
I personally believe that being woken in the middle of the night & be expected to be ready in 20 mins never lone 15 is dangerous (OH&S) & if an accident could be attributed to that fact then a Coroner I reckon would have a field day wanting some blood (no pun intended)! Remember we are talking about SP here not RW where there are two crew (for our Ops anyway). Common sense prevails thank God for us!:ok:

Wmk2

[neville_nobody]

It wouldn't be hard if you were sitting in the crew room and the aeroplane is sitting outside full of fuel and you have already perused the weather. Not sure how popular that would be with staff if it meant you had to sit up all night in the hangar waiting for a call.


I vaguely recall an accident in a rescue helicopter where this was the go and the pilot was asleep and was woken up and flight planned half asleep and screwed it up.

[morno]

Personally, I like the 10min drive to work when I'm woken up in the middle of the night, as it gives me time to fully wake up and be alert, so when I get to the hangar, I can be fully functional and make the right decisions.

In aeromedical flying, especially in the remote parts of Australia, what's 10mins? I don't believe we should be rushing to the point whereby mistakes are likely to be made.

morno

[Jamair]

Neville, the incident you refer to was the Capricorn Rescue B407 prang at Marlborough in central Qld - 5 dead. "Sleep inertia" played a big part, as did many other factors.

Yes Wally, in the RW game we were 'on base' 24/7 - that was a requirement for an emergency service. Whether the RFDS should do the same would depend on whether they are considered an 'emergency' service or an 'urgent' service

[Wally Mk2]

"morno" couldn't have said that better myself:ok:......nothing is every that urgent when aviation is involved!

'Jamair' we are also on base along side the RW guys (not in the same bed though:E) & we too are clasified an 'emergency service' but I still stand by the fact that 20 mins (that's out contractual req) is just asking for an incident/accident under some circumstances never lone less than 5 mins but as I said luckily the fat controllers use common sense when dispatching us & safety is No 1:ok::)


Wmk2

[Under Dog]

mmmm.... yes been told many a time to get out in a hurry only to find you have to wait 30mins for an Ambulance at the other end.:ugh:

[Wally Mk2]

"UD" you said it all buddy!!!:ok:

I've stood on one side of MB's terorists proof fence with Med team & sick baby whilst the Ambulance was on the other side trying to get thru the gate........SNAFU!!!.........Quiet day here even the RW are still tucked up in bed, something to do with LSALT's & ice? Bunch of sissies:E


Wmk2

[Jabawocky]

Bolt cutters Wally.....use them!

Ice....you are not scared in your twin engined all weather machine now are ya :E?

[Jamair]

No argument from me....... should never be in a hurry to go flying:ok:

Just pointing out that it is feasible, not necessarily a good idea.

[Jabawocky]

Jamair..... :ok:

Can't wait!

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Had a look at a brand new platypus NG the other day. Wow what a flight deck. I thought the proline 21 B200 was good, its got nothing on the PC-12. Fully integrated systems including pressurization NAV/FMS etc. Sooooo many buttons. It will be interesting to see how the honewell stuff goes. I heard they had a problem with it in western ops? Rumour only that they had to fit a separate gps to get it to go to a non registered airfield, can't be true surely.

Anyway, definately a very well put together machine and if it goes half as good as the cockpit looks it will be a fine weapon. They still forgot to fit the second engine!!!!!:ouch:
SN

[Towering Q]

Rumour only that they had to fit a separate gps to get it to go to a non registered airfield, cant true surely.

A 430 is fitted for the RNAVs that aren't in the Honeywell database...eg, Bunbury.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So do all the honeywell systems have a non jepp database?
SN

[Wally Mk2]

..........hey "jaba" I think bolt cutters maybe a tad obvious when we get stripped searched by the security goons in & around some airports:-) One would get linched with an old Leatherman never lone a pair of 'toe cutters'!:)

Ice is good stuff jaba', in ya drinks!:)
I know the whirly gig boys pray for ice, when their in bed pushing out zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's!

Once upon a time I would have ogled over an NG too, but I'm no longer in that 'once upon a time' part of my life, I'm looking for as many guarantees as I can get when I go plane drivin' & yr don't get 'em from that machine !!!!:E

Wmk2

[megle2]

From what I am told the NG is very slow from start to departure as you can't go to everything is on line. Now with the B200 / Proline setup you can depart with standard nav and bring the FMS stuff up to date airborne. And you don't need a second GPS.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

meagle2
If you cant wait the 60 seconds required to initiate the FMS/proline then your rushing your departure, it can be done on the run if needed. The Proline has the full Aussie/jepp database with all approaches including vnav on the GPS/NPA. I'm reserving my opinion on the Honeywell, perhaps the CS boys can tell us more.
SN

[Jamair]

Video added as promised, just for Wally & Jaba........

PC12 at 25000' in light ice

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See how much better you view of the wing is without that extra engine in the way......:}

[Wally Mk2]

Fantastic view there Jamair, it's so sweet of you to be thinking of Jabba & myself whilst airborne, prolly to take yr mind of the fact that there is only ONE engine!:} And all the better to see where yr gunna CRASH when the ONLY fan stops!:E
If I want a better 'view' I'll go hire a C172 & fly in the day where I can see!:)
Legalized suicide!!!!!! Crazy!:E

One has to wonder whether all this automation (Pro-Line 21 etc) is really worth/needed. With the advent of accurate LRN (GPS) & decent auto flight systems what's the need for such sophisticated 'add on's'? The task of getting people from one place to another safely doesn't need that level of automation we've been doing it for years without it so why now? CFIT is just as common now with all the automation as it was back when pilots almost guessed where they where in IMC
I know automation is meant to make the pilots task easier but is it? We've had plenty of Airbuses do things that have the pilots scratching their heads.
A little off topic but worth a mention I reckon.
Food for thought & some constructive comments are welcome:)


Wmk2:)

[Josh Cox]

Wally,

My opinion,,,, well if one has good training ( which I believe I did ) and system knowledge combined with an adequate level of situational awareness, the more info you have available to you the better.

I have several hundred hours on the PC12E ( "NG" for the slack jaw yokels ), and have had a couple WTF moments, but overall I believe the Apex Primus is a good system and provides a safer environment.

Some of the guys I worked with have flown the Proline 21, they prefered the Apex, but thought the Apex was a little long winded to program at start of flight and to change a flight plan inflight was a pain in comparision.

Anyone with the intelligence to understand that a single engine turbine is not without its risks, but if flown appropriately, can be very safe, would have the intelligence to operate the Apex Primus,,,,,,,,,,,,,not sure where that leaves the multi engine dinosaurs..........:)

Oh hang on, you wanted constructive comment......

[Towering Q]

Legalized suicide!!!!!! Crazy

Westops and Central Section have been operating the PC12 for over 10 years. If you include Queensland Section and the WA/NT Police, that is many, many thousands of hours of flying.

How many fatal accidents? Not one. But don't let the facts dampen your hysteria.

[megle2]

Soup - the ground delay is with the NG not the Proline.
Point made - you cannot go until the NG is completely fired up - takes time
Proline - if you choose you can go without it

Ground time can be important when the surface is not so good.
I'll leave the "on the run" stuff to you.

[Wally Mk2]

Hey "TQ" I hope like Christ that we never have to be back here talking about an engine failure on a PC:) But aviation is all about risks, calculated risks just that I personally don't believe the risk is acceptable but then again I don't make the risk assessment rules nor do I need to fly one, again, thank Christ!:ok:
As I have mentioned many a time amongst these pages of debate the PC would no doubt sh1t all over the outdated Beech no contest there just that SE ops (of any commercial/AWK nature) should not be allowed in IMC as was once the case & for good reasons too, again juts to appease the head strong here personal opinion only:ok:.


Wmk2

[morno]

But Wally, there HAS been a PC-12 engine failure in Australia and at night.

The result: One perfectly executed glide approach back to the airfield, all crew unharmed.

I hope we're never back here talking about a fatal accident from the result of a PC-12 engine failure as well, but I have a good feeling we won't be for a very long time.

morno

[Wally Mk2]

Yeah 'morno' I am aware of that event in WA. Perhaps I should have worded that to say 'with an ugly outcome etc'. Taking nothing away from the driver as it's obvious the excellent RFDS WA Ops training that kicked in but the end result was amongst other things conducted under 'ideal conditions' IE: VMC, low-ish terrain & excess height etc. All make for a favorable outcome:ok: Trouble is we don't always fly in 'ideal' conditions.
And I hope yr right there morno a VERY long time:ok:


Wmk2

[Towering Q]

'Ideal' conditions would have been 0810hrs, not 2010hrs.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

If the PC-12 is statistically safe then the B200 is bullet proof! The bottom line is if the PC-12 suffers an engine failure you will make an emergency forced landing-no option. If you suffer the same in the B200 the pilot must screw it up for the same to happen. If you operate the B200 in the normal category there is only a few seconds on each take of that there is any danger, in the transport category there is no danger. There is a very high percentage of flight time where you are exposed to an "out landing" should the engine fail in any single.

If the person who made the decision to get PC-12's is happy with the risk to life that it posses then he is made of stern stuff indeed. I would suggest it’s not his life on the line. That’s not to say I wouldn't fly one if that was what was put on the ramp out front, I would, but it would not give me that warm fuzzy feeling believe me. The King Air is such a safe aircraft by comparison, and safety should be first especially when the cost difference is so little and in most cases its the taxpayer that's funding his own transport.