Aer Lingus - LGW

[CarbHeatIn]

Can somebody spell out how the EI LGW (and BFS for that matter) package differs from the DUB figures on ppjn.

Many Thanks

[super737]

UK crews are on different contracts and terms and conditions than the DUB crews etc. Less money and poorer conditions.

[leeds 65]

i presume that will be brookfield then :}:}:}

[jonjoe]

No, nothing to do with Brookfield. Just a different contract with Aer Lingus, different terms and conditions, pay, pension etc. Same as Belfast contract.

[captplaystation]

For Brookfield to be involved you would have to move another more fundamental piece of the chess set. . . . . . . Oh and also allow a Moggy called MOL in among the pigeons. :rolleyes:

Who knows for the future though, 3rd time lucky ? (but for who :( )

[CarbHeatIn]

UK crews are on different contracts and terms and conditions than the DUB crews etc. Less money and poorer conditions

I'm aware of that. Looking for specifics. I also believe IALPA have an agreement with the company that any future positions in Ireland must be offered to current EI pilots based outside Ireland (subject to seniority) before any external recruitment can begin? Can anyone elaborate on this? Thanks for your reply anyway.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

What I can say is that a large number of the ex-CTC cadets unceremoniously dumped by easyJet in the last 3 months are being recruited by Aer Lingus. The figure I heard is that they want 16 FOs and 13 will be straight from the easyJet/CTC cadet scheme. These excellent young pilots are no longer 'cadets' but Airbus-rated pilots with around 300-500 hours on type, completely familiar with the Gatwick operation into Europe. From Aer Lingus's perspective it simply does not get any better - free top-quality pilots who are desperate for a job, available immediately, current on type and likely to accept any conditions without a fuss. EasyJet will now have to recruit more expensive rated pilots in a few months time and thereby lose more money. It is win-win for Aer Lingus and lose-lose for easyJet. No doubt someone in easyJet will have received a substantial bonus for 'managing' the situation so well.

[captplaystation]

I would guess it is lose-lose IF , & only if ,Easy don't make any money from the Type Rating scheme. There seems to be so many different "varieties" here that I lose track of it. Another well known lo-co is widely believed to "benefit" from it's scheme, hence their enthusiasm to recruit ad infinitum, even if they have at tiomes very little in the way of flying to offer for a substantial time subsequent to the course. Methinks Easy probably "benefit" in some way from the training process per se, hence their laissez faire attitude to losing these folk.

[Lummy]

I could spell out some of the terms but I don't wish to swear on this forum.

I can understand that many people at the moment will be under alot of pressure to get a job. It's a steady job with plenty of flying and a steady (if rather poor) rate of pay. So if you are a low houred pilot then EI is as good as anywhere else to start.

However, if you experienced and are coming from another airline with the lure of working in Ireland under the same terms and conditions neatly outlined in ppjn, then please think long and hard before coming. You will be sadly disappointed.

Some questions you may wish to ask at the interview:

Bond (esp if you are A320 rated)
Base freeze
Tax

In the same vain that "all that glitters isn't gold", " all that is green isn't Aer Lingus". IALPA is working on it but with MOL lurking in the background there are bigger fish to fry at the moment.

Good luck to all who apply.

[Captain Planet]

Jaysus! Someone ain't a fan of Ryanair then! Will EI really last the distance at LGW with Easy and BA so prominent, I don't think so. A back lash to MOL's recent, second bid to Mannion and his public service cronies.

CP.

[fade to grey]

Norman,
are you paid by CTC ?sure sounds like a commercial to me.They may be 'excellent young pilots' but what they lack is substantial experience - you cannot buy that.

I love the CTC hoilier than though attitude - but then again britannia always thought they were a cut above just a large charter airline.

[The Flying Cokeman]

ASFKAP,

Maybe not as big as they used to be in LGW but BA's 37 aircrafts including long haul planes are significantly higher than EI's 4 planes. They won't last long I predict and then NSF your CTC cadets can return to Orangeland again :) The cycle is complete.

[potkettleblack]

The cadets will just build hours with EI just like the Belfast base and then head for the hills when the likes of BA are recruiting again. The conditions are so bad unless your Dublin based that it makes no sense to stay.

[Deep and fast]

Is anyone gonna tell us the terms and conditions or are you all going to witter on about Ba Ryan and the fake tan mob!

D and F

[The Flying Cokeman]

ASFKAP,


All 37 (in fact 41 at the moment until summer program)) aircrafts are BA planes no franchise at all. GB used be a franchise but now a part of easyJet.

Anyway back to the original question..........

[potkettleblack]

Is anyone gonna tell us the terms and conditions or are you all going to witter on about Ba Ryan and the fake tan mob!

£41k starting for f/o. After a years service you get a 3% payrise rising after 10 years of service to a tad over 52k. Sector pay on top of that. Captains salary tops out after 10 years around 99k. Oh and you get a free uniform.

[ItsAjob]

£41k starting for f/o. After a years service you get a 3% payrise rising after 10 years of service to a tad over 52k. Sector pay on top of that. Captains salary tops out after 10 years around 99k. Oh and you get a free uniform.

What A Joke!

[The Flying Cokeman]

A hell of a lot better than a kick in the bum in this current situation :rolleyes:

I am sure people who have lost their jobs recently would like to take a job there.

[Love_joy]

Quote:
£41k starting for f/o. After a years service you get a 3% payrise rising after 10 years of service to a tad over 52k. Sector pay on top of that. Captains salary tops out after 10 years around 99k. Oh and you get a free uniform.
What A Joke!

Ever seen what the regionals pay?!?

[jonjoe]

Or Easyjet???

[doctorfox]

or an xmas catalogue distributor?

[crappy5]

How much will a years sector pay be roughly?

[Lummy]

£8500ish.

Taxed at full rate.

And the joke continues.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

fade to grey - Just to clarify my own position, I am an easyJet Airbus Training Captain who is simply keen for easyJet to do as well as it can in the current climate. I have nothing whatsoever to do with CTC and never have done - nor am I likely to be seeking employment with them any time soon! I have no axe to grind other than one of absolute frustration at short term thinking by people who are paid obscence sums of money to do a whole lot better. I have, however, personally trained a number of our CTC cadets and they are almost invariably top quality people. They are inexperienced, but nonetheless are type-rated and have a little less than 500 hours on type. You therefore cannot speak in the same breath as them and people with 200 hours out of Oxford. They are therefore exactly who EI want as many of their early teething problems have been ironed out at easyJet in a robust training environment whilst operating all around Europe. As I said earlier, it really does not get much better than that in terms of suitability to go to EI. I wish them all well, but I cannot say I hope that EI do too well out of Gatwick!

[Dr Eckener]

Well I lost my job, and I'd happily take it. Pays more than McDonalds :ok:

[jonjoe]

Lummy, if you don't like it you know where the door is........

[Green Army]

Pilots Pay and Condition- Information for candidates

Gatwick Base

Pay-scales
Point
First Officer
Captain
1
£41,200.00
£78,280.00
2
£42,436.00
£80,628.40
3
£43,672.00
£82,976.80
4
£44,908.00
£85,325.20
5
£46,144.00
£87,673.60
6
£47,380.00
£90,022.00
7
£48,616.00
£92,370.40
8
£49,852.00
£94,718.80
9
£51,088.00
£97,067.20
10
£52,324.00
£99,415.60


Sector Pay
•Sectors divided into bands based on nautical miles
•Same rate of payment for Captains and First Officers
•Average £8,500 per annum


General Terms

•
Annual Leave

o 28 days (including Public Holidays)

o Increase by 1 day after each of the first 5 years service to max of 33 days

• Paid Sick Leave entitlement increases with service to 13 Weeks after 2 years

• Medical, Life & Loss of Licence Insurance Provided.

• Uniform Provided.

• Working Time Limits as per JAR-Ops


Very important!

EI pilots stand together in IALPA unlike some other airlines (you know who you are) These condition might seem poor but we as a group werk together to improve them to the level we have in Dublin. We need to keep this unity throughout the company otherwise we end up with people that only care about themselfs and dont care about your fellow pilots, like the :mad:-heads in Ryan air. IALPA is the strenght in EI and we need to keep this up, with IALPA we will increase the T/C's. And we are! We have a Global Seniority list that means you can apply for DUB base and the DUB conditions after three years, based on availability and seniority!!!!

Pilots that dont stand together and are willing to be shafted and dont do anything about it are in my mind useless to this industry and should walk away from aviation. I understand that finishing training means in most cases you have debts and worries. This might be the reason why some of us work for companies like Ryan Air but it doesnt mean you have to accept the way some companies are treating some pilots. We should all stand together, all airlines all pilots. If everybody would to step up to the plate we might be able to turn the tables.

GOOD LUCK!

P.S If you are one of those :mad:-heads, please dont react. You are wasting our time. But if you are one of those pilots that are willing to improve our world then please let me know what you think.:ok:

[Lummy]

Jonjoe,

My apologies. It was a stab at the UK tax system. If I could find the door to that particular problem...

Apparently it is going to be UK wide.

[leeds 65]

im one of those :mad:heads and a very happy :mad:head too

[The Flying Cokeman]

I hope IALPA are better at keeping their pilots united, than they are at spelling :uhoh:

[captplaystation]

Welcome back Capt Kremin, or should I say J.P. Ballsareneedy, :hmm:

Brisbane getting a bit passe ( sorry as it says on the left there , no longer in France, so the accent is N/A on my keyboard ) time to find some culture back in Europe eh ?

What aload of horlocks :yuk:

[yoland]

First Officer starting salary is really a joke and after ten years still isnt funny. Im dissappointed with IALPA but i feel they are getting weaker by the day and just protecting themselves in Dublin. :(

[easymoney]

J.P.

Nice way to refer to fellow pilots.

Looks like the the so call ****heads are on better conditions than what IALPA have negotiated. A bit of a case of "I'm alright Jack".

Don't forget the to take into account the 7% deduction, to pay back the recent bad investment.

Sure we'll be seeing you in East Midlands for your 6 monthly renewal soon anyhow.

[45989]

All a bit shallow

easymoney.... I'd be worried that you might not have EMA to go to in six months. Might say AF or LH over the door.

Its all starting to appear pear-shaped for the pikey

We know the reason for the rush(panic) to try and get AL
Wait for the next set of ryr figures..........

Like the movie, "There will be blood"

Lots of it!

[Count Bawbag]

Crikey, it's the CTC love in! Norman's brochure like blah makes them sound more like production cars.
Oh well, I suppose if they're rated and they're sitting about flicking their winkies doing not much then they should have the jobs.

[Deep and fast]

Rumour is that bmi are gonna go down the pay to line train route. It's like a :mad: infection.

It's all b:mad:s

I'm gonna give up soon cos this industry will be worth f all soon.

D and F :8

[yoland]

Lets focus on the topic if at all possible.:mad:

[flying macaco]

First Officer starting salary is really a joke

It's one of the best I've seen at the moment out of those recruiting (having looked around alot) and given the current market I think a lot of people would very happily take it. Lots of people (me included) have recently been made redundant. And you scoff at a starting salary of almost 50k/year (including duty pay). Now that really is a joke.

[clanger32]

FM....Amen to that. We'd all like to earn more than that, but £50k yr1? Where do I sign - although unfortunately I suspect there's slim to no chance I'll even be looked at...

[ItsAjob]

And that my friends is why our conditions are going down the pan.

[yoland]

Still so much to learn.Keeping cheap labour alive while the airlines reap the reward.:ugh:

[jonjoe]

Get real mate, like any other profession it's demand and supply. We all think we are so special. It's just a job. The slots in LGW will be filled by the best qualified on the day. It's a good company paying the going rate. If you don't like the T&C's, go around......

[flying macaco]

And that my friends is why our conditions are going down the pan.

Still so much to learn.Keeping cheap labour alive while the airlines reap the reward.

If you were made redundant in the past few months are you telling me you would choose unemployment over an approximate 50k/year starting salary?

Would you honestly pass up this opportunity in protest for better terms and conditions?

Are you really suggesting I am naive (with "so much to learn") to apply for this job, given the current limited opportunities, market conditions and forecast for 2009?

[easymoney]

If you have no job, you'd be mad not to take this position if offered, albeit on less favourable conditions than across the water.

This is a very similar situation that happens at my company. Open a new base and offer it on reduced terms.

Here's me thinking that if we had a union things might be better.

The union is only as strong as it's members - looks like they boys in Dublin wimped out on this one. Ah well, I suppose it doesn't really affect them.

Is this true or not.

[Tooloose]

No, it is not true.
When Aer lingus proposed the opening of the BFS base IALPA strongly opposed the T&Cs imposed by the company. These included no union representation, no seniority, promotion on "merit", no right to transfer to DUB etc.
After 2 threatened strikes and 5 months of very arduous negotiations a much better deal was achieved and this is the template for other bases outside the ROI.
The key characteristis of this template are: All new entries join a global seniority list and all promotion will be in accordance with this list. All pilots have the right to transfer to ROI (DUB &ORK) on ROI T&Cs after a 5 year period, retaining their global seniority position. They have the right to join the ROI DB pension scheme on transfer and transport their existing DC pension to buy service.
Some of the T&Cs are better than ROI e.g. 5/3/5/3 roster, others are worse e.g. pension. However, a DB scheme like pilots in Ireland have simply would not be possible under UK legislation.
Right to union representation.
The T&cs of Aer lingus pilots outside ROI have a long way to go yet in terms of improvement and IALPA are already engaged in pursuing these improvements. However, they are much better than they would have been had IALPA not taken the action it did. And they stand a much better chance of further improvement as a result of that action.

[Faire d'income]

Easymoney Aer Lingus only just announced the Gatwick base.

Wise up.

[Green Army]

:ok: I am with you Tooloose:D

I hope there are more people like you out there! IALPA is doing a lot behind the scene! I think things will inprove! BUT If not....the crew in bases outside the ROI will have the oppertunity to get back to DUB. AS LONG AS IALPA AND THE PILOTS STAND THEIR GROUND!!!

People can say and complain all they want. But one thing makes EI pilots different from others. We stand toghether and we do all we can to prevent EI to run with our T/C's. So the T/C's might not be great now but they are better than most, at least the EI do all they can to improve the T/C's. If we dont like them in the end then WE as a group will strike. Hence the past cancelled stikes. If the rest of the european pilots would do the same then maybe we wouldnt be in this mess with people like MOL. If all his pilots wised up and come together as one, maybe think about strike action, the MOL's would have no choice than to respect us as a workforce. Not as a cheap weak " **** them all we can" work force!

(By the way my spelling might not be great... like to see you wright in a foreign language. Feel sorry for you if all you can say or comment about is somebodies spelling. Sorry character.:D)

[buffalowing]

Ok so is it:
- 3 or 5 years that you can't move base for?
and
- Can you move between BFS and LGW but not to ROI until the 5 (or 3) years are up?

thanks

:confused:

[Tooloose]

- 5.
- Yes.

[CamelhAir]

Easymoney,
You're barking up the wrong tree there. When I look at the way EI pilots act as a group, once again I am ashamed to be associated with the numerous spineless toads who inhabit FR.
There's a damn good reason EI pilots enjoy a vastly superior income level and lifestyle to FR pilots.
When was the last time FR pilots at another base did something on your behalf? Or even more disgracefully, when was the last time you actually cared?

[easymoney]

"When was the last time you cared"

Quite alot actually, I'm an IALPA member etc. etc. You shouldn't tar all FR pilots with the same brush.


Don't mean to offend anyone, only posted originally after some t*ss"r slagged off Ryanair Pilots. But I still think it's wrong that the new LGW pilots are going to be on far less than the DUB pilots for doing exactly the same job.

Don't forget some FR pilots have stood together under extreme conditions, only to be let down by the Irish legal System.

[captplaystation]

Given the current strength of the Euro against the pound they are getting an even cheaper deal than they envisaged. Consequently, yet one more excuse less to pay badly compared to DUB.
I too am surprised IALPA let this slip through, thin end of a MOL type wedge if you ask me.

[flying macaco]

Have the interviews been and gone?!

[nick14]

I believe the interviews have been and gone for the moment yes.

Clanger don't be so hard on yourself, a fellow low hours course mate was fortunate enough to get through!

Ah Camelhair back to his old tricks of kicking the dust about FR, will it ever end..............

[clanger32]

Nick,
Yeah, I know what (and who!) you mean, but my application went in off my own back - those you mention had the benefit of NM. Still if they come back for a second bite, I may get some luck....
:)

[nick14]

Ah right same here, sent the CV in December when they were looking but no luck.

Didnt realise that NM helped so much, he really is a wonder man!

n

[Stand31]

It's 4 a/c initially to be supplemented by another 4 by year end at LGW so EI will need plenty of pilots. I wouldn't be surprised if A330's are based there shortly.

The T&C's are "local market" conditions. (i.e. easyjet pay rates or similar)The terms posted above by the Italian JP person are correct. There will probably be direct entry captains also as there will almost certainly insufficent bids internally.

One advantage is that because of the seniority list you can transfer to Dublin in seniority once unfrozen. A 200 hr cadet on year 1 of the payscale in Dublin has a package of roughly €100k outside of company contributions to the defined benefit pension scheme. The basic top of scale is €206k (€250k by the time you add the gravy).

The starting salaries in Gatwick may be marginally lower than easyjet or whoever but long term it's probably a better bet. Balance sheet wise EI have almost a billion in the bank and will be around for long while yet unlike XL, flyglobespan, Aer Arann, maybe even FR.

[The Flying Cokeman]

Provided EI don't get bought by FR :}

Still don't see them last very long in LGW.

[A and C]

The EI website has a end date of 6th feb on it for DEC applications.