Maximum ATC instructions

[Sqwak7700]

I could have sworn that there was a limit on how many instructions ATC is suppossed to pass on to pilots. The other day while turning final I was given;

"descend and maintain xxxx, turn right heading xxx intercept the localizer R07L, speed xxx until x mile final, report established"

I also have regularly heard clearances that are followed by a frequency change in one transmission.

I thought there where internationally agreed rules against these practices, not just recommended procedures.

A little ATC insight would be appreciated. These scenarios are potentially very dangerous. I realize that the airspace and the frequency are busy but I don't think we need to revert to this sort of stuff.

:confused:

[Sand Man]

Why do we get radar vectors onto 07L? By doing so ATC only save about 1 mile with a lot more comm. Would it not be better to vector everyone to Limes and then clear them for the ILS from there? Why wait until the last 10nm to sort out spacing, why not achieve the spacing before the procedure (Limes)?
I know there is an issue with the airspace around the base leg for the ILS so why not move the base leg to fix the problem? I think it would be better to fly a tight known pattern with minimal comm., than to fly a tight unknown pattern with excessive comm.

[Glass Half Empty]

Its crap isnt it. Makes you work far harder than necessary when your fatigue is at its highest. It always suprises me we dont have more incidents but then again maybe you have to raise your awareness so high it serves the purpose of getting you in safely. I always wondered why I fall asleep on the train home!!

[ACMS]

I seem to recall that 3 is the most ATC should give in one go.

They do get a bit carried away sometimes, makes you forget the first 2 things they said!!

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

First sign of Alzheimers, I'm afraid...:eek:

Alzheimer's disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alzheimer's_disease)

There is NO limit as to ATC instructions,but if they do issue too many simultaneously,then why don't you do the same in your RT reply to them...:ok:

[OldChinaHand]

Yes, when I shake off the cobwebs I seem to remember that a maximum of 3 items should be given by a controller, dont know where its printed though. We cannot remember more than that.

For 07 L+R approaches, I agree with Sandman, would make life a lot more simple for all concerned.

[indiscipline_girl]

dont know where its printed though.


You just did! Merry Christmas.

[The Wraith]

Yeah Jizzmonkey, you're right! Cos everyone is based in Hong Kong and has the local knowledge. Lets just hope foreign airlines don't start flying into Hong Kong...:ugh:

Merry Christmas, anyway, though!!!:ok:

[Glass Half Empty]

"now my gripe is why (off 07) do we change to 123.8 then about 1 min later change to 119.1 with departures to the south?"

Its crap isnt it, oops said that already!! Perhaps it is time to retire from this sh1t. Oops said that as well, death is the only release from this nightmare.

[ACMS]

123.8 has the airspace from the Runway to Porpa and TD and beyond..

119.1 has the Airspace south of that line controlling the arrival flow to 07L/R

After T/O you need to call 123.8 first then switch to 119.1 if you turn south. If you keep going to TD you stay on 123.8

I'm sure smarter heads than ours have worked out this is the best way.

But it's still annoying.

[Sqwak7700]

First sign of Alzheimers, I'm afraid...

Alzheimer's disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is NO limit as to ATC instructions,but if they do issue too many simultaneously,then why don't you do the same in your RT reply to them...

uhhh...because I'm not 3 years old anymore. :ugh:

My point is not to "get even". It was to raise awareness to something that could potentially turn into an unsafe situation. That is all.

what's the problem? you KNOW you are going to get heading 040, you know you are going to get descend 1700, you know you will be cleared for the ILS and you know you will be required to report established........

grow up, it not hard.........

Jizzmonkey spilling from his mouth again, you guessed it....jizz!

Ever heard of confirmation bias? Much more likely to happen when you are overloaded with stuff that "you expect". You tend to overlook and ignore the actual instructions. :hmm:

It is not a question of wether it is hard or easy. It is not hard gliding to the airport from 5000 feet overhead the field. But that doesn't mean you plan your fuel so that you will arrive that way. :rolleyes:

And please guys, if you have another problem with ATC, like which departure frequency to use, then go ahead and start another thread. :ugh:

[Basil]

Sand Man,
Would it not be better to vector everyone to Limes and then clear them for the ILS from there?
and then get told to go around as you turn onto 040 for the intercept.
No I was never sure why either :)

[Sand Man]

Basil
and then get told to go around as you turn onto 040 for the intercept. If ATC sort out the spacing before/at Limes and then EVERYONE fly’s the published speeds then why would you need to go around?
I'm sure this will make arrival easier for all concerned (ATC, local and foreign carriers).

[The Wraith]

Sorry Jizzmonkey, I was being sarcastic. And I am NEVER usually sarcastic. Oops, there I go, being sarcastic again. And no, I'm not being "ironic".
:ok:

[Basil]

Sand Man,
It was a one off where we self positioned to 07R and there seemed to be a misunderstanding. I guess I shouldn't go on about it.

[spleener]

Ahh thankee Jizza!
Forgot that Cxcrew control has ensured that, in particular, it has it's crews current and at their personal circadian high on every HKG arrival! Purlease...
Then again, I am older than 25.
ventilator please.

[On the beach]

Check out this link

http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/AD/HK_AD2-101.pdf

and it might explain why you get so many instructions in rapid succession, especially if you are being short-cut from TD. If they were issued one at a time there is the danger of someone else transmitting just when you should have been turned onto the LLZ. Might explain a few other things too, like the proximity of the Macau approach. Pity the chart doesn't show Shenzhen too. But believe me it is on that map. Don't forget that you don't hear or necessarily see the Macau arrivals/departures on your left hand side and if they are deviating around weather. Doesn't fully explain the max no. of ATC instructions, but hopefully will provide a little insight into what's going on around you. You are not alone!! I know when I worked Approach I liked to maintain "control". That is after all what we're paid to do.

On the beach

[Sqwak7700]

I understand, if there are efficiencies you can take advantage of in your job, you do. We all do the same thing. But I don't think that making rapidfire paragraph sized instructions are the way to go.

If it so busy that you feel multiple instructions are necessary, then as previously sugested, everyone should be spaced on base (extension south from LIMES), and left on the procedure track. Then the only instruction would be "cleared for the ILS 07L from LIMES, comply with charted speeds" If two planes are spaced at LIMES and comply with speeds, then they should be OK once they round the corner as well.

As long as everyone is back to 180 when they cross LIMES, we are talking a very small speed envelope requirement until 4nm final, where it comes down to 150-160.

[PanZa-Lead]

I can't believe we are even discussing this. If you cannot comply with 3 or more instructions then maybe you should go and work else where i.e. "Do you want fries with that". We must be the laughing stock on pprune. With two ppl in the cockpit this should NOT be a problem. Hope BA and other pilots aren't reading this:ugh:

[Sqwak7700]

Panza go back to sleep. Your age is really showing. If you have nothing to contribute to this conversation, then maybe you should stay out of it. It looks like you might be in over your head, so get back to the shallow end. ;)

A quote from Walter Sobchak seems very appropriate; "Donnie, you are out of your f***ing element, you have no frame of reference. you are like a child!"

Sorry, it just seems so appropriate. :ok:

[PanZa-Lead]

******

sorry it seems so appropriate

[barrold]

- a maximum of three instructions, preferably one of them without figures, is recommended. Some controllers do tend to try and do too much in one transmission.
- clearing a/c for the approach from LIMES does not work... trust me. IT DOES NOT WORK!

[Bedder believeit]

I find it hard to believe some of the crap written here. Is it comments by idiots, or idiotic comments. ATC is busting their guts to get the aircraft spaced at minimal useful and efficient distances apart for max utilisation of airspace so you people don't have to hold etc. Limes is still close to 20 miles from touchdown and there is still lot's of fine tuning to be done between there and touch down to achieve the spacing that I was referring to above. No way can you just set it at Limes and then sit back and watch...the spacing would be all over the place. Why don't some of you experts come over to the centre and plug in and see what really goes on. If a 2/3/4 person crew can't cope with an anticipated clearance for an approach then maybe you should be doing something else. I note that the Asian (non native English speaking) carriers normally cope pretty well. Back to sleep!

[slapfaan]

- a maximum of three instructions, preferably one of them without figures, is recommended. Some controllers do tend to try and do too much in one transmission.
- clearing a/c for the approach from LIMES does not work... trust me. IT DOES NOT WORK!

barrold:
Do enlighten us all with the reference and source of the "maximum of 3 instructions"..

Doing an approach from LIMES works just fine. Don't know what you are flying mate,but my aeroplane has something called speedbrakes/spoilers/boards..call it whatever you like..pull the lever,and "voila!!--Bob's your uncle!!:ok:

And for those who cannot remember more than 3 instructions..ever heard of writing down clearances on a piece of paper..it's not THAT hard..really...

[Ndicho Moja]

Pen and paper work quite well! I suspect that in this texting age that writing skills are at great risk.......excuse me, sarcasm is unbecoming!

[Cafe City]

Seems to me that Hong Kong ATC has a big standardization problem. The number of different ways we are handled and different phraseology/instructions we are given keeps you second-guessing what is coming next. Funny how often controllers ask US what speed we have been assigned. Don't you guys talk to each other?
Find it especially strange the way we are often turned left off the STAR from TD to follow someone who is being short cut from the west (SIERA ?). Is that some sort of strange priority? Why wouldn't you leave us on the STAR and put the guy who is getting the short cut behind? We got a heading of 190 from GUAVA the other day for about 10 miles. 190?? I mean how does the arrival sequence get so far out of whack that you have to do that? There must be some serious queue-jumping going on to need that many extra track miles at such a late stage. I figure we had about 25 track miles added by the time we turned back up, when less than 40 miles from touch. That is some serious misjudgement.

Anyway back to the thread- 3 instructions seems good to me- heading, speed, altitude. No problem. :ok:

[Cpt. Underpants]

From the ICAO 4444 manual (Air Traffic Control Procedures)

10.1.4 If an air traffic control clearance is not suitable to
the pilot-in-command of an aircraft, he may request and, if
practicable, obtain an amended clearance.

And from CAP413

1.13.5 The ATS messages listed below are to be read back in full by the pilot/driver. If a readback is not received the pilot/driver will be asked to do so. Similarly, the pilot/driver is expected to request that instructions are repeated or clarified if any are not fully understood.

Taxi/Towing Instructions
Level Instructions
Heading Instructions
Speed Instructions
Airways or Route Clearances
Approach Clearances
Runway-in-Use
Clearance to Enter, Land On, Take-Off On, Backtrack, Cross, or Hold Short of
any Active Runway
SSR Operating Instructions
Altimeter Settings
VDF Information
Frequency Changes
Type of Radar Service
Transition Levels

I liked the "driver" bit - thought it may apply to the Citroen Of The Skies, but then realised that vehicles have radios too. Darn.

[throw a dyce]

NATS current thinking is a maximum of 2 instructions that contain numbers.This is primarily to stop level busts.Also no instructions to be given with frequency changes.
We also have to give degrees after heading instructions,and millibars when giving the QNH.Also descend to altitude has been given for years to stop confusion about the meaning of to.(or is it 2).:hmm:
I can see that lot being adopted in HK.:rolleyes:

Interesting from Cpt Underpants.
It used to be that a lot of towing around HK was done by non english speaking drivers.The driver would request in Cantonese,the assistant would then translate and write it down.You would tell the assistant and the instruction which would be given in Cantonese.The tug would then do completely the opposite you wanted.Please tell me that system has gone.It was one of the most dangerous things I have ever seen.Throw CAP 413 in the dustbin on that one.

Cafe city.
Sounds like you had a bit of gentle order swopping /avoiding action,we have too many aircraft so it's congo line time,expression of free art itis.It was painful to watch sometimes as well.:uhoh:

[Cafe City]

Sounds like you know the place well dyce.

Similarly, when we come in from the east for 7 it always amazes me when we get bent out to the south to follow traffic that got shortened from Mango to Limes. What is the point of shortening someone if it causes someone else to get stuffed around.:confused: They get shortened and now we come together near Sokoe so we get screwed. := Couldn't we both have just stayed on the STAR?

I don't think its a matter of inexperienced locals as some of the worst handling I've been on the other end of has been from expat controllers. It seems they're not immune to this fuzzy logic that exists in HK. Indeed they may have passed it on to the locals.

[PanZa-Lead]

Must admit where ever we fly to they have STARS and we hardly ever get to fly the complete procedure. There must be a reason and I think in times of high traffic they don't really work. Personally I think ATC here in HK is very good.

Now I am standing by for some smart comment from Squawk 7700. He will STEAL someones "quote" off the internet and put it in his reply so he can look intelligent.

W*nk*r .. sorry it seems so appropriate:ok:

[Cafe City]

I'm not complaining about being taken off the Star per se Panza.

Its just the odd logic that someone is shortcut only to find 5 minutes later that a dead heat has been created that didn't exist before. Invariably its the one flying the procedure that gets shafted and gets the grand tour of the South China Sea followed by half a dozen vectors back to base.

Surely that creates a lot of extra work for you ATC guys and girls.:confused:

[FlexibleResponse]

During the final stages of an approach, vectors and speed control are the only remaining tools that ATC has to achieve the fine control needed for landing spacing in traffic-congested airports. The problem for HKG is somewhat exacerbated by the geographical restrictions of adjacent airports and high terrain.

I've always thought that HKG Air Traffic have done a pretty good job. I remember some time ago, they saved two CX jet aircraft on the one night. And I personally heard them save a US carrier that blasted through the localizer on 25R enroute to an otherwise heavenly destination.

In any case the vector/speed-control commands in each terminal area seem to follow a repetitive pattern that we get use to and come to expect with exposure and experience. Linking of these commands with the final approach clearance should not come as a surprise and can be anticipated by awareness of traffic in front of and behind you.

[Liam Gallagher]

The scenario you suggest is not the norm. It does happen at the best of airports, however other airports get lateral and vertical separation and then one aircraft gets the other runway. Obviously, we can't do that in Hk because it's written that pax aircraft land on the left and freighters on the right.:ugh: Flexibility: key to airpower.... lets not get bogged down by dogma etc etc

Flexible Response

I would have thought that a "US Carrier" going through the centerline would not be a problem as their tower is only a few hundred feet amsl. Besides with all that firepower... who is going to argue...

oops .. different US carrier... I'll get me coat...

[FlexibleResponse]

I would have thought that a "US Carrier" going through the centerline would not be a problem as their tower is only a few hundred feet amsl. Besides with all that firepower... who is going to argue...

Perhaps you are correct! :)

[Cafe City]

Obviously, we can't do that in Hk because it's written that pax aircraft land on the left and freighters on the right.

Not according to this recent AIP Supplement (Para 3.2) I presume its still current as we (pax) were put on the south the other day.
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/supp/A08-08.pdf

Not sure what that has to do with my experiences of illogical sequencing decisions at HK though.

[Bedder believeit]

Cafe City

If you were turned on to a heading of 190 at GUAVA (where in all probability you would have been tracking 250), then a turn of 60 degrees to the left for about 10 miles, would give you about 10NM extra to run to LIMES, not 25 as you suggest. There are many reasons why inbound aircraft from SIERA are "dropped" in, and as a general rule, you are not privy to them. I think I could say in passing that at times, creating an easier traffic sequence for ATC is one of them. It would take many thousands of words to elucidate all of the various reasons and traffic dispositions that result in the decision being made to "shortcut" traffic from SIERA, that may result in traffic inbound from TD/GUAVA being bent to the South to accomodate.

As you point out in your last post Cafe City, "we (pax) were put on the south the other day", this is quite true. We no longer broadcast on the ATIS that freighters/BAC/GFS will land on the South runway. The ATIS now defines (under normal circumstances) that all arrivals can expect the North. What has mainly changed is that various members within the ATC group can offer/dictate that certain landings may take place on the South runway. Obviously the bulk of these will be freighters/BAC and pax aircraft parking on the South apron.....after all, we not only try and make life easier for you....but we also like to make life easier for ourselves. Bear in mind that each time a decision is made to allow a "South lander" then various bits of internal co-ordination need to take place. This of course is sometimes a waste of our efforts, because we will "offer" the South, and then it will be declined.

Part of the reasoning behind this new philosophy is that aircraft landing in trail on the North/South runway can be more closely spaced than repetitive arrivals on the North runway...a saving to you, and the less onerous taxiing after landing that this entails also, is a saving to you. The disadvantage is, that departures can be delayed, so careful reasoning takes place before random South runway arrivals are allowed.

[Liam Gallagher]

Thanks for the information on the change of policy on the use of the runway; very welcomed news indeed.

Does this change also relate to departures around midnight? I believe it would be beneficial if, between 1145 and 0045 we, perversely, utilized one runway for landing and one for departures. We used to end up in the ridiculous situation of 10 Jumbos (40 engines running) waiting at J1 for a stream of Freighters to land on 07R, whilst 07L was available and unused. The reason: Freighters always land 07L....:ugh:

Take the point on the wasted effort re arranging the runway change. Why not formalize what we used to (which subsequently we were told not to do) and that is request it with APP/Dir when we confirm the ATIS code. Some times there are reasons we don't want on 07R, 25L (such as windshear)

Cafe city; what I meant was if ATC get it a bit tight they just "sidestep" you across.

[Bedder believeit]

Liam, generally speaking most teams that I have worked with on the night shifts (covering the period 11.30pm to 12.45am tend to put all (well, most) of the freighters on the North runway, particularly if there are a few departures on the South...which there normally are. One night recently an irateish A300-600 freighter Captain rang the tower to complain about being put on the North runway during that period and said that we (ATC) were just being lazy!!!!! So it just goes to show! He also stupidly said that "this girl" (female ATCO) is always doing this...considering that we have probably 50 females rated as tower controllers, his voice recognition must be pretty good.

The normal way in which the South runway is offered is that the Tower South controller(118.4) will try to forecast ahead when there will be light(ish) departures, he/she will then advise the APP people that the South is available for XXXX, the people in the centre will have a think about it, and then will revert back to the tower in agreement or otherwise. At some point during the latter part of this decision making proccess the offer will be made to the aircraft concerned. This will normally only happen approximately 8 to 10 minutes before touchdown. In addition, during periods of heavy arrival traffic, then the APP people can dictate to the tower that the South runway will be used for a given number of arrivals.

Give my regards to Noel!

[Sqwak7700]

And for those who cannot remember more than 3 instructions..ever heard of writing down clearances on a piece of paper..it's not THAT hard..really...

...ever heard of not being heads down during critical times. Do you write everything down? I think the controllers would rather you pay attention and read back quickly, lest they repeat their instruction because you are busy writting it down. You are really just missing the point of the thread... :ugh:

...NATS current thinking is a maximum of 2 instructions that contain numbers.This is primarily to stop level busts.Also no instructions to be given with frequency changes...

Thank you throw a dyce, I knew that I had seen it somewhere. That is exactly what I was talking about. :ok:

Now I am standing by for some smart comment from Squawk 7700. He will STEAL someones "quote" off the internet and put it in his reply so he can look intelligent.

Still can't read, can you? I was never reffering to STARs and being taken off the arrival corridor. Might want to put your glasses on and actually pay attention. If you would like to discuss that matter, all you need to do is start another thread. very simple, I'm sure even you might be albe to handle it. :ugh:

Don't worry, I won't waste any more smart comments on you, I'm afraid they are going over your head. Now leave and get back to your coloring book.... :rolleyes:

[throw a dyce]

7700,
I've been using the NATS system for about 2 years now,and it seems to work fine.I guess it's like every new initiative that appears,you think why,but you get used to it.We also have to speak as you would write,to stop the machine gun list of numbers that could get confused.We very seldom have say agains anymore.Listening carefully to all readbacks is another.
It's surprising how these little changes can reduce the chances of mistakes.But as I said would they be adopted in HK?Maybe I don't know.As most of my training had to be reversed,turned inside out/upside down when working in HK,I wouldn't be too hopeful.
I would have a bet that the inner holds at TD and Sokoe are very seldom used.If there are too many a/c why not put 2 or 3 in these holds.It would free up the R/T considerably instead of the South China Sea conga.I never saw these holds used once,but the conga line was there all the time.
Anyway back to the frost and snow.:)

[PanZa-Lead]

I think you are the one that can't read.

I wasn't refering to your post at all when I was mentioning stars.

Actually I like your childish quotes that you crib off the internet to make you look intelligent (read stupid).

Now when you are on the internet again, download some balls and a happier personality.

:ugh: OH! I thought I would use one of these as you are so fond of them.

Off to colour now