Brand new Wellington bomber? [Archive]

alvin-sfc

24th Dec 2008, 12:20

Dop

24th Dec 2008, 13:17

Building a new steam locomotive from scratch might have been a wonderfully quixotic thing to do and I applaud them for it, but while I'm no expert I suspect that building an airworthy replica Wellington would be several orders of magnitude more complex, and not just from an engineering viewpoint!

I think it's one of those problems which may be solvable if the right amount of money and expertise are thrown at it - especially the money!

Still, it would be cool!

mr fish

24th Dec 2008, 13:19

got no pics but there are messerschitt 262s currently being built.
they have american engines thankfully, i seem to remember the jumos only ran for about fifteen hours before melting!!!
i also heard stories of fw190s with russian radials but i guess something as big as a wimpy would be out of the question:ok:

Dr Jekyll

24th Dec 2008, 14:46

It's perfectly possible in principle. A new build Vimy has been built after all.

Some of the recently 'restored' Spitfires are virtually new build. The issue with building totally from scratch is that it would cost as much as restoring an old one, but be worth much less once complete because it would be seen as an imitation.

This doesn't apply with the Me262 and FW190 because the originals are so scarce, like the Wellington in that respect. On the other hand those wealthy enough to buy them normally want something fun to fly so twin engined aircraft are never that popular. Much greater expense and less exciting.

You need an eccentric billionare who already has a Spitfire, Mustang, Hunter etc and now wants something different. If was me the Wellington would be well down the list, after the Typhoon, Mosquito and Hornet.
Or failing that a film company who for some reason needs a Wellington and decides CGI won't do.

A Spitfire costs around £1.5 million to (re)build so I'd guess a Wellington wouldn't leave much change from £5 million.

There was a firm in the US that rebuilt Mustangs in the 1960s for impecunious air forces, I think they built some new ones from scratch as well. Then they hit on the idea of fitting a turboprop engine on them and trying to sell it to the USAF as a front line combat type. The USAF decided against it but they and other forces did look at it closely.

The original Wellington did have endurance of something like 9 hours. So maybe fit your new Wellington with a laser guidance system and it can loiter over the battlefield all day dropping bombs when required.

Perhaps we are on to something here!

Roy Bouchier

24th Dec 2008, 15:20

The Wimpey would pose a few structural problems as it was Barnes Wallis geodetic construction that made it so strong (even if it did bend like a banana on the ground).
Wonder if there's anyone around with the expertise to replicate it.

Captain Airclues

24th Dec 2008, 15:45

The group that built the Vimy are hoping to build a Handley Page HP42 replica although it seems to be making rather slow progress.

Imperial Airways - Imperial 42 - Project Information (http://www.imperial-airways.com/Hp42_project_information.html)

Dave

pilotms

24th Dec 2008, 15:47

@Mr Fish

The FW190 are build with Chinese Engines by Flug Werk
Flug Werk GmbH Germany (http://www.flugwerk.de)

GeeRam

24th Dec 2008, 16:55

Did anyone see that programme this morning about those guys who built a locomotive from scratch? It cost several million quid to complete. I got to thinking, would it be possible to build a brand new,airworthy, say, Wellington or Hampden or some other rare warbird.Dread to think what the cost would be. Any thoughts on this anybody?

As said a 'wimpy' might be a challenge, but the restoration team on R-Robert at Brooklands rebuilt a lot of the geodesic structure so it wouldn't be impossible, although engines would be in all likelyhood, which is the problem facing TFC with their Beaufighter.

As has been said, most of the Spitfire/Hurricane/P-51 etc restorations are in fact virtual new-build, and there is currently new-build Mosquito's 'on the line' in New Zealand.

henry crun

24th Dec 2008, 18:18

A new Mosquito is being built in New Zealand.
Mosquito Aircraft Restoration, Auckland New Zealand (http://www.mosquitorestoration.com/)

alvin-sfc

24th Dec 2008, 19:02

Looks like they're doing a good job in NZ Henry with their Mossie. Wonder what the total financial outlay amounts to when its returned to airworthyness?

innuendo

24th Dec 2008, 22:23

Not sure about a Wellington but these folks are building the Fokker D7,
Fokker D.VII for sale! (http://www.collectors-edition.de/FokkerD7/index_english.htm)

There is a gent in my town who is building a D7 from plans that he got from somewhere in California. Most of the fuselage is done. He has a Mercedes engine for it and has fabricated some of the items such as the oil tanks and ammunition carriers. Truly a labour of love.

stevef

25th Dec 2008, 08:13

Anyone recall seeing a short archive film about a Wellington that was produced (from components to a complete & serviceable aircraft) in 24 hours (three shifts)? It was unfortunately lost on operations not long after.

fauteuil volant

27th Dec 2008, 14:35

I didn't see the television programme but I suspect that the locomotive was A1 Pacific 60163 'Tornado'. Whilst I believe the construction was funded mainly by private donations and much of the work was undertaken by volunteers, no doubt some of that cost will be recouped and most of its running costs will be covered by operating mainline steam charters and/or by hires to heritage railways. I can't envisage an analagous situation for a replica Wellington - all it could hope for would be airshow display fees and museum admission charges. I doubt that these would make it a viable economic proposition. What one hears about the Vulcan would, I think, make any level headed person think and think again before contributing - in terms of finance or labour - to a project that probably would end up as a white elephant. To build and fly a military aircraft you have to be either very rich, very foolish or a government body - and the larger the military aircraft, the larger would have to be the rich person's pocket, the fool's ego or the government body's ulterior purpose!

FAStoat

29th Dec 2008, 09:10

It was only in the ?late 60s,when Handley Page went,that maybe the last Hampden was scrapped.No one ever thought about conservation then.Also there used to be a Whirlwind,used as a hack at Yeovil,up to the 60s.It seems that whenever a Manufacturer takes over another,it goes to great pains to totally destroy anything left of the former.A good example was when Gloster left Hucclecote, Hawker Siddeley took the contents of the drawing office and burnt the lot on the runway.

denis555

29th Dec 2008, 09:27

It would be a magnificent thing to do, but I fear that although posssible practically it would be impossible financially, unless some Russian millionaire has got around £20 million that he might want to donate.

Talking of donations I have a fuel tank gauge from a Wellington I would gladly donate....

Daveg4otu

6th Jan 2009, 07:23

REbuilt/new build Mustangs....

Piper PA-48 Enforcer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer)

Chipmunk6AEF

20th Aug 2012, 19:45

Although it was did not feature strictly an exact replica there was a film made in 1969 called "The Sky Raiders" in Czechoslavakia. The movie was about the Czech pilots that flew with RAF Bomber Command during WWII. A Czech Air Force Lisunov Li-2 (s/n 23442209, military No. 2209, ex civilian Czech Airlines OK-GAD up to year 1957) played its role in the extraordinary conversion to Vickers Wellington.
The conversion covered the new rudder, the fuselage "coat"
and both the new (fully functional, even with the firing guns!) turrets which were armed with ex-Luftwaffe MG 17 machine guns, found in a Czech AF store!
The engines, props, cowlings, undercarriage and wings remained C-47/Li-2.
The converted plane was not allowed to fly (as the Wellington), but it was able (and cleared to) taxi by its own. One strange feature was the narrow slots in the skin of the fuselage, needed for the original C-47/Li-2 propellers, which were too large for the new "Wellington" fat fuselage. It also featured stock footage of 149 Squad. Wellingtons. Perhaps this may be the way forward!.

gileraguy

20th Aug 2012, 20:47

The "rebuilt" Spitfires have to have an original data plate because of airworthiness requirements. You'd need that in a Wellington if you were going to fly it.

aviate1138

20th Aug 2012, 22:22

This is a short version of the original wartime documentary.

Workers Weekend in WW2 - YouTube

ICT_SLB

21st Aug 2012, 04:55

I was an apprentice at BAC Hurn when they were building the replica Vimy & parts were made in the Training Centre. The fuselage structure is the same node repeated with differing tubes between - locked in by bracing wires that also have welded pick up points on the node. Very simple to produce but it took a skilled welder (NOT one of us apprenti) to do the job without messing it up. For any monocoque aircraft the problem would probably be finding someone with the skill to hand roll the skins and the patience to produce all the cleats & ribs.

aviate1138

21st Aug 2012, 09:43

My Old Man helped build Wellingtons at Brooklands then Smith's Lawn [Pressurised Wimpeys I think] and dammit I can no longer prise [very reluctantly from him] any info about Vickers/Barnes Wallis/Wellingtons/Warwicks and Windsor Prototypes. It took nearly 35 years to find out he was saved from injury by being in between two massive American lathes when bombs were dropped one lunchtime.

I would love to see a Wellington airborne again, replica notwithstanding.

I remember being in the garden of our house in the Avenue Sunbury on Thames and seeing a very low flyby of a Wellington with very little canvas aft of the Port wing trailing edge and some strips trailing behind the tailplane fluttering in the breeze. Heading for Heston or Feltham Air Park I expect. About 1943 Late Spring.

Exciting times for young lads back then.

BrianJC

3rd Jun 2014, 00:15

Just a tidbit of information.
June 2nd 2014. Barrie, Ontario (McDonbalds) :-).
Vet was sat there at 06:00 in his uniform. Chatted to him. He was Flt. Lt. George Mitchell and was one of the Windsor pilots for Barnes Wallis.
He also flew on the 3 Tirpitz raids with Number 9 Squadron.

GQ2

3rd Jun 2014, 14:10

Frankly, I just can't see this happening, and doubtless those who have raised this in this forum will be the same as those who have raised this elsewhere on the web. It's not impossible, it's just not feasible or realistic financially. End of. It'd be very expensive to build, operate and hangar. If it did happen, realistically-speaking, it'd need to be a 'rebuild' anyway, but it's pretty pointless speculating, as no one is going to fund it. Too much money, - too little fun.
Don't forget, we have lost REAL Sunderland's and Mosquito's because no one in the UK wanted to fund them.....!!!

IFPS man

3rd Jun 2014, 16:34

BrianJC
Sorry to put a dampner on your post re the veteran who flew the Windsor for Barnes Wallis. I have a listing of all flights undertaken by the three aircraft (DW506, DW512 & NK136) but there is no mention of a pilot of that name flying/working for BW. Did he mention where he was stationed?

regards

IFPSman

Shaggy Sheep Driver

3rd Jun 2014, 19:07

The group that built A1 Pacific 'Tornado' were a hard-headed bunch, with professional legal, business, and financial folk leading it (not just steam-heads!). They are about to commence a Gresley P2, and I expect it'll be running before too long.

But a Wellington? Why? And what would you do with it? As has been said, could you construct a business plan to justify the cost?

If it's to be done 'just for fun' with no business case for it to 'wash its face', then I'd think a Wellington would be well down most aviation enthusiast's list. It's not attractive, it didn't excel, it was wobbly and flexible. It was soon outclassed.

Simplythebeast

3rd Jun 2014, 19:16

We need a Beverley!

Herod

3rd Jun 2014, 20:13

There is a Beverley, so it's not too late. Just needs a few million to get it back in flying condition.

chevvron

3rd Jun 2014, 21:38

Aviate1138: I'm aware of the assembly of Wimpeys at Smith's Lawn, but where did construction of the parts take place? Years ago I read a book called 'Beneath the City Streets' which mentioned an underground aircraft factory under Wentworth Golf Course which as you're probably aware, isn't too far from Smith's Lawn, so could it have been there?
(Thinks - purely imaginary - if you could find the entrance to this factory, would you find tooling/jigs/parts still there?)

Wander00

4th Jun 2014, 08:06

.............or even a complete Wellington perhaps....hat, coat............

IFPS man

4th Jun 2014, 12:45

The Wellington was the mainstay of BC from day 1 of WW2, until the first of the 4-engined "heavies", the Stirling, entered service in January 1941. The re-hashed manchester aka the lancaster, didn't enter service until February 1942.
The Wellington was the only British-built bomber to see continuous service throughout WW2, and was in continuous production (over 11,000 built) from the late 1930's until October 1945. By comparison, there were only 7300 or so lancasters produced.
By and large, the Wellington was under-rated - it was the only viable means of attacking Germany to any degree AT THAT TIME. Give it the recognition it deserved........
Andy IFPSman

chevvron

4th Jun 2014, 13:05

And it was still in service in the '50s.

Fareastdriver

4th Jun 2014, 13:44

I believe that the Mosquitos produced in New Zealand are not allowed to fly in the UK even with an original data plate.

They haven't been built with the original glue.

Wander00

4th Jun 2014, 14:02

That will be the Campaign Against Aviation, will it? Use better modern glues, and probably more stable timber, but you cannot fly it because it won't fall apart as quickly...........simples.........

Phileas Fogg

4th Jun 2014, 14:20

My mother worked on Wellingtons ... Amazing, simply amazing, how Britain managed to win the war :)

Phileas Fogg

4th Jun 2014, 14:35

The Wellington was the only British-built bomber to see continuous service throughout WW2

Ahem :)

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/7/0/7/1391707.jpg

Herod

4th Jun 2014, 14:46

And it was still in service in the '50s.

Whenever I mentioned (probably too often) the Varsity to the young airline FOs, I would be met with blank stares. Referring to it as "an aluminium-skinned Wellington, with a nosewheel" didn't get much further. No sense of history. Mind you, they probably knew all about the Vikings and Henry VIII.

IFPS man

4th Jun 2014, 16:24

Talking land-based RAF bombers here, not puddle jumpers....

Shaggy Sheep Driver

4th Jun 2014, 16:34

(over 11,000 built) from the late 1930's until October 1945. By comparison, there were only 7300 or so lancasters produced.

Well, you could read so much into that...

They started building Wellingtons a lot earlier than Lancs so 'course there were more made (I'd have expected the difference to be greater given the Lanc's late arrival in comparison).

So many crashed (EFATO was often fatal) that they had to be replaced.

The Lanc was far more effective so fewer were needed.

The Lanc was a far more sophisticated bomber so took longer to produce.

Etc, etc.

It's a bit like the old saw that BoB was won by the Hurricane, not the Spit since far more of the former took part. True, but only because the RAF didn't have enough Spits at that time!

Sorry, the Wellington was 'all we had', but that doesn't make it particularly good.

ZeBedie

4th Jun 2014, 17:28

How did the Wellington compare with the He111? Range, bomb load, speed, cruising altitude?

javelinfaw9

4th Jun 2014, 21:40

Sorry but that TSR2 is a strike aircraft:O

Martin the Martian

11th Jun 2014, 09:54

Don't know about the company Hampden, but Westland's Whirlwind hack, G-AGOI, only lasted until 1948, not the 1960s.

ericferret

13th Jun 2014, 03:32

If you own the familly business with no shareholders......

Newsletter Carnuba Sikorsky 38 and Samuel C. Johnson (http://www.strangebirds.com/Carnauba-Johnson.html)

I was working in Antigua on the airport at St Johns when this aircraft joined the circuit. I thought I was having a halucination.

Apart from the actual building of the replica, it's entourage included a couple of very expensive business jets, a Cessna Caravan floatplane in case it went down on the water and a Sikorsky
S76 helicopter camera ship with a special camera nose for aerial shots.

Apparently after completing the flight to Brazil the crews were told to just make their way back to Chicago in slow time getting good film footage. What a job!!!!!
If you have enough money you can do anything.

I would suggest contacting the guy who's planning to rebuild the Titanic. A Wellington would be small change.

Charlie12321

30th Aug 2017, 10:04

Hi There,

I am a researcher looking to get in touch with anyone involved in the 1943 Workers Weekend creating the wellington bomber in under 24 hours. Whether this is the workers themselves or descendants of those involved. If anyone could help with this I would greatly appreciate it!

Charlie

chevvron

30th Aug 2017, 12:47

It's perfectly possible in principle. A new build Vimy has been built after all.

Two actually and both flyable. The original one was unfortunately all but destroyed by fire in about 1970.
Don't know where the second one is now. I remember it landing at Farnborough in '98 (or was it 2000?) in a strong crosswind - it landed across the runway! Last I saw of it was when it came into Fairoaks in about 2010.