Flap position during de-icing

[Iceman49]

Does your operator deploy flaps to the takeoff position prior to de-icing...or after de-icing is complete...and why? Thks

[DutchBird-757]

Flaps zero before de-icing, brake fans off, apu off, no apu air for first sector. Engines can be left running at idle.

Cheers,

[Henry VIII]

TO flaps AFTER de-icing.
Because if you deploy them before there is the risk to damage some device(s) locked by freeze or to contaminate the flaps with precipitation, if present.
Last but not least, it's a manufacturer way to act.

[roljoe]

Hi,

same proc's on the LJ45, flaps must be extended in TO setting when deicing is completed..and about to line up for TO....

[Bruce Waddington]

roljoe,

The Lear 45 FAA Approved Manual I have states that;

"3. Flaps - As required. If the flaps require deicing extend to the full down position during the de-icing procedure. Upon completion, set flaps for takeoff. Otherwise, leave flaps retracted or in their present position, as applicable."

best regards,

Bruce Waddington

[FlyingTinCans]

Flaps to TO position AFTER de-icing, apu OFF and engines can be running.

Why do you ask? I thought it was the norm everywhere to have flaps fully retracted for de-icing?

[roljoe]

Hi Bruce,

the procedure we follow has been established by our LJ45 chief pilot..regarding several facts..

usually you have to taxi up to the deicing area, and during this part of taxi...flaps should remain retracted..to avoid overstress of any mechanical parts..specially when the plane was sleeping outside...

Then, only when the deicing process has been completed...a check of the propre operation (and clean status) of the flaps are conducted...

if a important taxi remains to be done, flaps are let in the up position..this to avoid penetration of snow, slush..etc...and keep a max of anti-icing fluid between the different parts...

Finally, when about to line up, we select the flaps position for TO..

The faa manual only states that the aircraft must be aerodynamically clean (quite obvious) before TO...this the approved part of the manual...

In the addendum part of the faa manual (which is not faa approved)..you'll see that in cold weather ops...it's better to taxi with the flaps in the up position...

All this to demonstrate the choice we made in our company...

The flaps are controlled for free operations only after deicing...and reset to up position...for further taxi...

regards..

[Bruce Waddington]

roljoe,

Thank you for the correction to my statement above !

The de-icing procedures are not part of the FAA approved Flight Manual. However, Learjet states on the title page of the addendum;

"This addendum contains procedures for safe operation during icing conditions and for de-icing/anti-icing Learjet airplanes on the ground before flight."

The position of flaps for taxi to the de-ice bay may well vary depending upon condition of the taxi ways and the operators procedures. But the addendum makes it very clear that if the flaps require de-icing they must be extended to the FULL position for the de-ice procedure and then selected to the take-off position when de-icing is complete.

That's good enough for me.

best regards,

Bruce Waddington

[roljoe]

Hi Bruce,

you're verry welcome and glad we agree...

anyway, alike for a large number in aviation, it's also a matter of "bon sens"...and different situation will lead to different choice, as long as we made the good one..the beer will be appreciated in the hotel's bar...:ok:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

The flaps should be UP, until clear of any potental contaminent on taxi way, this also includes snow blow back from reversers. (G450/G550).

I put a manual reminder on the lower panel, RHS, to remind me that there is a non standard procedure in force.

In Moscow, so busy revising the holdover and procedures, freezing rain forecast. Looks like an enforced Xmas vacation.

Dont want to be the next statistic.

Glf

[Swedish Steve]

I thought it was the norm everywhere to have flaps fully retracted for de-icing?

Yes, but we had an incident in OSL 3 weeks ago. Aircraft landed late at night on a contaminated runway. Crew left the flaps down for inspection. Contracted engineer arrives later to do daily check, by this time flaps are covered in snow. So he leaves them where they are after inspecting and finding nothing in cavities.
Next morning new crew arrives and asks for deicing on the gate. This is not allowed in OSL, you must taxy to the deice pans. Crew would not taxy with flap extended so aircraft towed to deice pan (which is a long way) for deicing.
I never found out why they would not taxy out, there is a statement to allow this in their FCOM.
Personally in this case I do deicing with the flaps where they are, then retract the flaps for anticing, but it is a bit of a foggy area.
I do not believe that there is any point in leaving the flaps down for inspection on an A320. The chance of slush going up there is very remote. I have tried to get this instigated, but Airbus says NO.

[BOAC]

I do not believe that there is any point in leaving the flaps down for inspection - primarily in case reverse was used on a contaminated runway. 737 'normal' is to stop at F15 where the Leading Edge devices are still at full extend. LEDs are probably more of a problem than TEDs

[Swedish Steve]

737 'normal' is to stop at F15

Don't quote half a sentence. What I said was
I do not believe that there is any point in leaving the flaps down for inspection on an A320.

The B737 is a different kettle of fish. The flaps on a B737 hang down behind the wheels, and are double slotted. They do get full of slush.
The flaps on an A320 are one piece and are way up above the wheels. I personally have never seen slush in there, but consider it normal on a B737.

[BOAC]

Don't quote half a sentence. - or post!:ugh:I did not see any point in quoting the rest of your post!

Does the 320 not have LEDs or reverse thrust then? I did not mention slush in the TE Flaps or kettles:confused: Just maybe that is why AB said NO!?

[frzfoz]

For airbus , if we leave the flap extended until parked. Do we need to wait for engineer inspection to deice or we can leave the aircraft and let the next set crew do the deicing part and retract the flaps .

[gravityf1ghter]

On taxi in, in contaminated conditions, it is stated (B737) to not retract the flaps if there is suspicion of ice, and to retract once they have been suspected and seen to be clear of ice.

if they are inspected and found to have ice build up- then what? De ice with flaps in the landing position, retract the flaps and de ice them again with flaps up?

[dual land]

On taxi in, in contaminated conditions, it is stated (B737) to not retract the flaps if there is suspicion of ice, and to retract once they have been suspected and seen to be clear of ice.

if they are inspected and found to have ice build up- then what? De ice with flaps in the landing position, retract the flaps and de ice them again with flaps up?

In Helsinki the de-icing crew shows up at the parking gate and removes the build-up, after which the flaps can be retracted. If it's snowing, a "real" de-icing is probably required after the turnaround. The normal procedure is then, of course, required.

[Alpine Flyer]

Flaps up for deicing, extended after de-icing if no precipitation and before take-off in case of precipitaton.