Demotivated....Ideas Please.

[Sunfish]

Maybe it's just the time of year, but I'm due for a flight review and am starting to think about whether I want to proceed with this game.

I'm a simple PPL who flies for the heck of it, usually to escape winter for a while and do a bit of touring. I'm cheesed off about a number of things.

The first is that I'm getting heartily sick and tired of the thinly disguised annoyance at all the major schools, chocked full of foreign students spending big money to be airline pilots, when I walk in and enquire about hiring an aircraft or finding an instructor for an hour or Two.

For example, I was informed of a certain amount of "irritation" when I hired a certain aircraft for a few weeks to do some touring because it interfered with the training of some people, not withstanding the fact that I put at least as many hours on it as it would have had if left on the flight line.

I've tried to find someone to continue my aerobatics work after my instructor left, but I get the impression that instructors at Two schools are just too busy to want to bother teaching me. They obviously don't need my money. The crowding in the circuit is also getting on my nerves.

I used to approach a flight review as a learning opportunity, and would seek out the oldest, least bold, and most experienced instructor I could to put together an interesting, demanding and creative learning experience as I was put through my paces.

Well, there don't seem to be many old characters left around Melbourne these days, and the thought of spending $600 - $800 to listen to all the platitudes I've heard before from some bored young turkey as we drag ourselves around the country doesn't exactly thrill me. I'm also getting sick and tired of the constant need to put my hand in my pocket for ERSA and charts, ASIC, Medical, etc.

Maybe it's just that time of year, but I'm seriously de motivated about staying current, I get the impression that myself and other PPLs are being crowded out, and I don't know what to do about it.

[The Green Goblin]

If you want to come west ill take you up :P

[djpil]

Sunfish, we need to have a chat about this. There are a few instructors I know who would be more than happy to do your review and who also should meet your requirements. Plenty of other options to discuss too.
I'll be at MB today.

[Wizofoz]

Sunny,

Here's the problem as I see it:-

You are a RECREATIONAL pilot. Don't try and find satisfactory ways of advancing you hobby at schools geared towards professional training.

You need to get seriously involved in a purely recreational avenue.

I've always had a foot in both camps. Whilst flying for a living, I've also been involved in skydiving, aerobatics and gliding. I can recommend any of those to you as a very fulfilling way to enjoy flying without going anywhere near a flying school.

My suggestion would be to go and do a thorough aerobatic course with an aerobatic instructor in a REAL aerobatic aircraft (Decathlon minimum- C150 Aerobats need not apply!!) then perhaps look at getting into a syndicate ownership of a descent aerobatic aircraft.

I don't know what you've done up until now, but the satisfaction of flying,mastering, and competing in something like a Pitts S1 is near the pinnacle of aviation experiences.

Next time you've got leave, go and spend a week with Phil Unicomb at Maitland. It could SERIOUSLY mess up your life!!!

edited because I crossed with djpil and wanted to say, Yo Pilks!!!

[OpsNormal]

Sunfish. When approaching checks many continue to ask themselves if it is all worth it, especially nowadays the cost of the documents is prohibitive enough, let alone the cost of clapped-out, depreciated for the tenth time airframes and of course the attitude of some schools to hiring aircraft for touring as you've pointed out. I feel Wiz has hit the nail firmly on the head there with that post. A bit of variety and mixing up your flying with different disciplines may well be all that is needed.

Next time you've got leave, go and spend a week with Phil Unicomb at Maitland. It could SERIOUSLY mess up your life!!!

That is awesome advice! You'll have a smile on your dial for weeks and weeks afterwards if you do that - Oh Yeah!:ok::ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

You could spend 5 hours converting over to a Recreational Licence. Combine it with a challenge such as a tailwheel endorsement to get maximum value. Sure, you still have to do a flight review every two years, but at least within the RAA movement the schools and instructors are keen to do whatever small jobs come their way.
Soon the recreational class is likely to go up to 760 kg, so unless your 'thing' is 4 seaters etc there will be quite a choice of planes to fly.

[harrip]

As a PPL myself I can identify quite strongly with you sunfish.

I think the point made re commercial flying schools v recreational is very valid. I've always flown through clubs rather than the more commercial schools so guess come flight test time I've not had quite the same quandary regarding the test. In fact, I try to add a new skill as I approach the renewal so I don't have a flight test as such. My last two renewals were covered by doing a CSU and retract rating and more recently a Night Rating. An Aerobatic rating may be for you - but consider the other add on's that may also help your flying.

I've taken the decision to try not to stand still with my flying and trying to move on to the next level. To this aim I'm now working towards a CPL and hopefully later an Instructor rating. This is still not without issue. For instance, I am finding it very hard to justify the cost of flying these days. I did a return flight to Bourke the other week and the cost of the aircraft hire came in at over $1,800. Now I know flying is expensive, but I could have got to the UK for that.

The only way I can think of justifying the cost is that by working towards an instructor rating with a goal of ultimately doing part time instruction, it will be an investment that I will hopefully get some return on (although the money would most likely earn more sat in the bank there is always the enjoyment factor to consider!).

[Stormynights]

I would reccomend taking a two hour drive to NE Vic and trying some of thhe smaller school
Can reccomend Skyways in Benalla
Very experienced instructor
Personal attention
Also has a gliding club there
might renew your love of flying

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

RA Aus is one great answer. Conversion Training is another option (better than a Flight Review). The best answer is of course to get the hell away from that school. I don't know Melbourne but that Maitland thing sounds all right.

Just think of this as an excuse for you to justify spending the extra money on doing something fun (tailwheel endo, work towards a multi endo (even if you don't finish it instructor signs you out for an AFR), Low Level endo, Formation etc).

Aus needs more people committing aviation for the fun of it so get out there and have some fun.:ok:

FRQ CB

[AirBumps]

Sunfish,

I'm a PPL in Melbourne and share your views. Can I ask what schools your refering to? That way I may avoid them when I need to do future BFR's.

Can anybody recommened schools down at MB or elsewhere that focus more on recreational flying and not simply the processing of foreigh students.

Can anybody point me in the direction of a reputable school that can do RAAus conversions (from PPL to RAAus Certificate) in or around Melbourne.

Cheers,
AB

[Flyer517]

Sunfish I think you are reading my mind.

The only thing I would add to your list of demotivators is the look I get from almost everyone in every flying school as I walk in the door. I don't have the blue slacks, white shirt and blue tie so surely I can't be a "proper" pilot even though I have lots more hours than they do! I would have thought my money was as good as the next guy's / girl's. Not to mention that in 12 months time I won't be back in India or Asia; I will still be coming in every weekend to hand over a few hundred bucks more for the privilege of renting their crapped out, passenger frightening, late 60s vintage aircraft.

I concur with the Phil Unicomb suggestion though. Best fun you can anywhere!

[Jabawocky]

TDN is the place you need to go by the sound of it. Eugene Reid is the man down there!

There is a cure for hiring.......... buy one!

J:ok:

[Aerohooligan]

Sorry to hear you're getting the stinkeye from flying schools. I saw that more and more at my old flying school as it became a sausage factory over time.

I'd suggest a great flying school on the Gold Coast with hands down the best attitude I've ever encountered, but I imagine having a family and all you'd like to keep it local. ;)

It's sad to see that PPLs like yourself aren't being treated seriously when all you're trying to do is fulfil your legal obligations and improve your skills.

Happy Christmas and good luck with it.

[C-change]

Sunfish,
Do what I did, buy a boat and go fishing.

Its cheaper, its relaxing, theres no study, the license test is easy and you still get to look at MET stuff plus you can feed the family. :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Sunny, wouldn't the operators at Lilydale fit better with your needs than a CPL sausage factory?

Dr :8

[apache]

Sunfish...

I know of a flying school for sale..... in Sydney. as owner you would be respected every time you walked in the door, and would never have a problem booking an aircraft.plus, this school even makes money!

[mcgrath50]

Apache, which school is this?

[Jabawocky]

Sunny, wouldn't the operators at Lilydale fit better with your needs than a CPL sausage factory?

And a supply of FTDK's I think! ;)

J:ok:

[ReverseFlight]

Sunfish, I sympathise your plight despite the fact I have commercial ratings.

I still treasure the days when I was a PPL for recreation and loved learning to fly out of small airfields and strips in upstate Victoria. Have you considered those instead of sausage factories at MB, PC or EN ? Country schools and clubs are often nicer and besides you save a lot more on landing fees.

I self-funded all my flight training and avoided all the sausage factories for exactly the same reasons. Mind you, I still end up with crapped out, passenger frightening, late 60s vintage aircraft !

[Maloo]

Gday Sunny,
The country thing would be good - refreshing change of scenery and attitudes. Maitland is getting a few good reviews so might be worth a try.
If the cost is still a barrier, as someone mentioned before gliding is a blast.
I am a CPL holder but if I flew for leisure I would glide. It is relaxing and it is a good club environment where people are there because they want to be there. You also won't have to spend much on maps and bureaucratic bs. The last time I went gliding an hour cost about $50-60 depending on how high you got towed. Sure beats spending ~$300. The only downside is it is limited to local flying unless you start to get serious and do some cross country gliding (I haven't done any cross country gliding so I can't really comment on it - if anyone has done x-country gliding it'd be great to hear about it).
Cheers

[Chimbu chuckles]

Sunny the obvious option, if you want to keep flying, is ownership.

There are MANY ways that this can be accomplished affordably...build your own RV 7/7a/8/8a via one of the quick build kits available. Peruse the vans performance aircraft website below

Van's Aircraft - Total Performance RV Kitplanes (http://www.vansaircraft.com/)

Alternatively peruse this website

BARNSTORMERS.COM (http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php)

There are many affordable classic aircraft out there. A mate just bought a C195 in the states that is in as new condition after the previous owner (a 777 captain and A/P) rebuilt her ground up like I am doing to my Bonanza. The purchase price was under 100k.

There are plenty of restored Cessna 170s etc for way less than 50k.

Now is a good time to be buying in the states as many US pilots see there retirement funds go up in a puff of smoke.

NOTHING beats having your own aircraft to go where you want when you want for as long as you want.

[Deaf]

Agree that ownership is the way to go and if you want to go when and where you want the only way.

I have a RAA J160 which (fairly) cheap to own and operate which is important for what is basically a personal toy. At the same time the range permits trips which are difficult/impossible for most GA eg BDV-Lake Eyre-WMC (no one around)- Painted Hills-Northern Flinders Ranges to PAG.

If you do go the RAA route suggest that you do the conversion in something like a Thruster/Drifter where you will sharpen your skills especially in the low inertia area rather than just notching up another 5 hrs in something similar to what you have already flown.

[JaseAVV]

The hang gliding federation of Australia practically doubled the annual fees this year to about $400. That coupled with the constant whining about "marketing hang gliding to attract new members" in the magazine they send out (Soaring Australia) is almost enough to make me want to get out.

What is it with obscure sporting groups being obsessed with spreading the word on their hobby? The spearfishing club I was in was the same.

I started flying a couple of years ago and they don't do much with all that money that effects new pilots like me who just want to fly locally for fun.

Anyway, maybe these factors will drive others out of the sport and my local ridge will have less traffic this summer. That might make it worthy of staying in for me!

[CKJ]

Hi mate - I've flown with Royal Vic down in Melbourne, and Clambacks in Sydney. All are good places and I can't imagine you would have too much difficulty taking an aircraft for a few days from one of these?

Agree with the earlier "sausage factory" poster - some of the schools are very focused on churning out the foreign students - have you given Lilydale a go? Might be a better fit.

Whatever you do, do NOT get out of the saddle! Aviation needs YOU (and all the GA / rec flying bug-smashers out there!)

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Whatever you do, do NOT get out of the saddle!

Hear, hear! Don't chuck it in on account of a few short-sighted, narrow-minded turds.

I was going to suggest aeros, but we seem to have covered that great idea.

What about an endo in something a bit sportier than you usually hook about in? Maybe a Baron or similiar? Combine it with a ME NVFR perhaps?

Also, I have to concur on the Lilydale idea or as an option followinga nice scenic drive, Latrobe Valley aero Club. I haven't been in that neck of the woods for years but they were always very friendly and welcoming when I used to regularly drop in on charters over the years. great fireplace on cold, windy winter days too! :ok:

More locally, Pearson at EN don't do the sausage factory thing either.

Good luck Sunny & let us know what you end up doing.

[Jabawocky]

Go Owen!

Race is on mate! :ok:

J:E

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day 'Sunfish',

Have enjoyed most of yr previous posts, and find myself almost in the same position.

I have a CPL, - got it in June '66 - which I haven't used in anger for some time recently, probably because of circumstances, and that I am 'retired' now, and find the 'local' flying club / school at JT a bit of a 'Gen Y' club.

So, some time ago I headed to Northam, about 1 and a bit hrs drive away,
because as soon as the wheels leave the runway - I am IN the Training Area!!
And, there are NO delays chewing up the VDO!

My next plan is to join the RAA and do some 'real' flying - which will probably be at the very same airfield where I used to instruct from as the 'only' country instructor in the area - some 40 years ago!!

(And on the walls of the 'old' schoolhouse which was my office / clubhouse in dem ole days....STILL hang the cut off ties and a 'slip' or two from my student's first solo s)

Yes, times and economics have changed......

But we are here to have FUN !
(We are here for a GOOD time - Not a LONG time...) N'est ce pas???

E N J O Y !!!

[Mr. Hat]

Sunfish take a holiday in QLD (gold coast area) and go see J. Chesterfield V.Salmon or in Bne A. Dunbar. These are the sorts of people that you are looking for. They've been there done that and each time you fly with them you learn so much. J. Eglen (RIP) was another one of these priceless people in the SE QLD area. Didn't know him from a bar of soap went flying with him and used the skills imparted for years to come - to top it off it was extreemly affordable.

[Jabawocky]

Alan Dunbar would be a good choice.

Sunny, Chuck has a top idea, and I think an RV-8 would be the perfect machine for you! :ok:

J

[Arnold E]

I am a little like you and I read with interest the suggestions of some people that suggest building your own aircraft or buying a "classic". I have done both and all of this is ok as long as you dont have to ask how much it is going to cost. Owning your on aircraft is great and the cost for the average PPL will only work out to about $900-$1200 per hour flying time. I'm not kidding, you will have hangerage, if its a classic, you will have maintenance (not a problem for me ) and insurance. All of this is unavoidable and ongoing. You wont build an RV for less that $140,000. And after all this will you feel any different? Hmmmm dont know. Try the gliding ( been there and done that too ) or the RAA. As you can see I'm a bit jaded myself.:sad:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Wow, cynical Arnold.

How would this cost $900-1200/hr to run?

CubCrafters: Aircraft for sale. (http://www.cubcrafters.com/sales/details.aspx?id=42)

Yes there is insurance, maintenance and hangarage.

For an aircraft like the above that might total $8k/annum. 100 hrs/annum = $80/hr.

DOCs for a cub might be $60/hr.

So far we are up to $140/hr.

An aircraft like this will not depreciate significantly so forget that.

Missed opportunity costs?

Well if you'd invested that $50k a few years ago in the stock market, or even a house, what would it be worth now?

You'd be bloody lucky if it was still worth anything..it might be 25k had you bought blue chip stocks...it could VERY easily be a big fat zero.

Lets say you just shoved it in a term deposit at 5%...you'd still have lost out because (real) inflation would have eaten it away at probably 10%.

At some point you can sell the Cub and while it wont have appreciated much, and probably not even held it value compared to real inflation, it likely would have done as well or slightly better than sticking the money in a term deposit. Yes sticking into an investment property would (historically) have meant you might turn you 50k into 100k (Before CGT) after 10 years, it wont mean that in the next 10 years.

And in the end we are here on this planet for a good time not a long time...you could be run over by a bus tomorrow...a personal aeroplane, like a boat, sports car etc, gives a great deal of satisfaction that can not be accurately valued by just adding up $.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

A Super Cub would be a fun way to wander the countryside!

Dr :8

[Arnold E]

Yeah! it probably is a bit cynical, but you should look at the whole picture. As you have pointed out the fixed cost could be around $140/ hr, but dont forget fuel. You only get the cost of the aircraft back if you sell it so as long as you have it, you have to include its cost as a running cost. Also in the future it is increasingly likely that the resale value of aircraft will fall damatically assuming you would be able to sell at all. You are quite right about not being able to put a dollar cost on a "hobby or enjoyment" but by the same token its better, I think, that people relalize what they are letting themselves in for before rushing out and making a very expensive investment which will never have a positive monitary return. As you say though, you cant put a dollar figure on pride of ownership and enjoyment.:hmm:

[Arnold E]

Where did you end up? Lately reading through these threads I am getting more depressed than ever. I am like you, although I do have a CPL. The concensus of opinion, Here, would have it that there is no future in GA. Crikkey, I have just spent $180k building an RV7. Does anybody here have anything positive to say? Right now I would like to sell my RV( anybody like to buy it?) and do something else. I notice there are a few people that have suggested getting a boat and going fishing, maybe not a bad idea. I have recently bought a go-kart and started racing with my son,(yeah even old far#s can have fun) and it's fun! Please guys, get me motivated again!:sad::sad::sad:

[GoDsGiFtToAvIaTiOn]

Crikkey, I have just spent $180k building an RV7

Well go fly the thing around Oz!
E-W-E, S-N-S, and around the circumference!

GG :8

[shadowoneau]

Wizofoz:
I don't know what you've done up until now, but the satisfaction of flying,mastering, and competing in something like a Pitts S1 is near the pinnacle of aviation experiences.

I recon doing 1000k in a open class glider on nothing but a couple of puffs of hot air pretty close (says me working on my B certificate :) )

Sunfish: head out to Bacchus Marsh - three gliding clubs that operate just about every weekend, and start your real flying! If you want to stick with the cast iron thermals, there is a powered school there as well, that seems fairly quiet on the weekends!

[bushy]

Little tinnies are ok, but if you want anything bigger, the advice I got was "stand under a cold shower and tear up fifty dollar bills. It's much the same, and it's cheaper"
If you go to any capital city you will be able to find millions of dollars worth of "yachts" tied up at expensive moorings, growing barnacles. Sometimes they go sailing.
In the capital cities many of the aeroplanes are the same. GA may be dying in the cities. Many were never viable, like the yachts. They got a big boost decades ago when our government gave huge tax concessions on aircraft purchases (probably to aid in oil search) so all the tax dodgers bought an aeroplane, and the salespeople organised a charter licence for them. Fortunes were made selling aeroplanes to fools, and teaching other fools to fly them. (yes I was one of the fools.) It got quite frantic but soon the mining fever died down and things slowed. The aircraft makers expected every Tom Dick and Harry to buy an aeroplane and they flooded the country with two seat trainers. But Tom, Dick and Harry did not buy and the industry slowed down. The factories slowed, and some stopped, blaming insurance costs.
So we have lots of under utilised aeroplanes that have been poorly maintained. Some have flown lots of hours. Some have not. Many are sound airframes that need a new engine and some TLC. Some need major work.
GA will never die completely because we live in a huge country with lots of still undiscovered minerals and poor transport. Smart people will want to go out there and look. It is also the only sensible way to provide essentiall services for those who live out there. Boeings can't do it.

[Jabawocky]

Mate....... Sell a half share of your RV7 to Sunfish.......share the fixed costs 50-50 and work out a variable costs charge per hour you are both happy with to cover everything else.

Then you will get better bang for your buck.

A nice -7 is a really cool plane to own! :ok:

J:)

[bushy]

If you think that GA only consists of the city based flying school and some hobbyists looking for cheap flying(don't we all?), then yes GA is probably dying. The young pilots are getting smarter and communication is getting better, so the rumours of the numerous skygod jobs are no longer brining so many chequebooks to the flying schools. The flying schools have to change. Those with some sort of agreement with airlines will spend the money for a multi crew licence but many others will not.
The real value of GA is outback, like PNG, where other forms of transport are not so good. And that demand will be there for a long long time.
And there are some good airframes out there that will die if the present trend continues. It is now well proven that many aircraft survive for half a century if they are properly looked after. {look at our military).
Chuckles Bonanza will serve him well for many years, and will be as good as a new one when he finishes refittnig it. I applaud his efforts
I remember seeing a beautiful Cessna 340 a few years ago. It did not look nice at the time. It was covered with dust and bird****. It was about 30 years old and had flown 300 hours.
There is treasure out there. Some of those machines the "junior skygods" call ****boxes, are in fact quite valuable.
GA will not die in Australia. It will change a bit, but it will not die. It is too important.

[Arnold E]

Bushy, WHAT WILL IT CHANGE TOO. Is it going to be good or bad.

Jabawocky. The RV has all the good stuff including 4 screen EFIS, (the only one that I know of )

[flog]

Get ye to YLIL.