Of Bears , Blackjacks and UK Airspace

[Satcomuk]

Morning all

A week ago , two Russian military aircraft paid what seems now to be a regular visit to our coastline.Having been tracked and shadowed by NAF F16s they were picked up by two Tornados launched from Leuchars , with a VC10 tanker in support.

During their "jolly" the Blackjacks came within 10 miles or so of the UK coastline , travelled up the east coast to N E Scotland , then turned NE and headed for home.
All pretty innocent and if we believe what is printed in the press , pre arranged.

Take a letter Miss Molotovsky...

Dear Gordon , two of my chappies are going to visit you tonight and play around with your QRA Tonkas....hope thats OK. Love Dmitry

That sort of stuff :ok:

Twenty four hours after the event , the press picked up on the story and quoted the MOD as saying that the Russian a/c stayed "outside UK airspace....and over international waters"

Which brings me to my question .

The Blackjacks were well within UK FIR.
They will have crossed a number of airways as they trekked up the coast.

So, how exactly is UK Airspace defined ..... and why fudge the issue by mentioning International waters ?
If they didnt enter UK Airspace...why launch a QRA sortie?

Perhaps someone could untangle the web :)

Thanks.

[anotherthing]

Just a small point - I'd have thought the VC10 would have a better chance of intercepting and shadowing than the tornados...

[Atcham Tower]

Operating under "Due Regard" maybe? Would anyone from Scottish like to comment, perhaps? (Satcomuk is a personal friend of mine not a journo, by the way!)

[Lurking123]

Aviation Law is a bit like maritime law. Sovereign airspace extends to 12nm from the coastline, after that it is a free-for-all. Under ICAO, member states agree responsibility for providing a service within certain geographical boundaries (FIRs) and, from a civil perspective, flight within these areas must comply with the relevant national regulations. However, the military can stick their fingers up to the whole thing and choose to operate under "Due Regard" - in other words they accept all responsibility for their actions. Traditionally the Americans are quite good at parking an aircraft carrier just outside 12nm using "due regard"; the Brits used to call it Gunboat Diplomacy. :ooh:

[PPRuNe Radar]

I don't believe they came any closer than 50NM from the UK coastline, thus were operating in international airspace under international law.

As mentioned, they were not a civil flight and not operating under ICAO rules so the civil airspace classifications and structures are of no relevance to the Russian crews.

It can be a pain in the ass if they conflict with civil traffic, but no worse than our own top gun heroes operating in Class G airspace and operating under their own version of 'due regard'.

[Atcham Tower]

Thanks for the comments L123 and PR. Due Regard it must have been!

[Lurking123]

PPR, Class G; what's your problem? Alternatively, did you just fancy taking the opportunity for a snipe? ;)

[PPRuNe Radar]

No snipe. Must be a persecution complex ;)

Russians operating in international airspace whose intentions are unknown pose exactly the same problem for civil controllers as military aircraft operating in Class G (or our joke Class C which becomes pseudo Class G for parts of the day) whose intentions are ..... unknown.

Or are you implying that the Russian standard of airmanship is much much worse than our own forces and therefore are a different level of problem to someone on the ground providing a service to try and stop civil aircraft having a collision ?? :}

PS it was interesting to note the TU160s left the RAF for dead last time they came down the Atlantic Ocean, simply by opening the throttles :ok: But then they were F3s, the Ford Cortina of the fighter world :cool:. Thank God for missiles I suppose :)

[Fox3snapshot]

Welcome to our world.....:cool:

"Due Regard" is alive and well here in the Middle East on a grand scale....I have grown to know it over the last decade or so as "Due Disregard" but all for good reason! :suspect:

The US assets here that cause the most grief are the P3's who happily sit in the middle of our main inbound arrival and holding area at the worst levels possible, up to 3 on task on occasions!! We get them trained up after a while to help play the game but the squadron rotates and we are back to square one! Our fast jet, tanker and recce assets from our local regional bases are pretty good and the B1's who's schedule is more regular than a tourist doing local vindaloo's in Mumbai cause little hassle. The carrier groups definitely take the cake! :sad:

[Lurking123]

PPR, my point is that your comment was about Class G or TRAs and you seemed to have a problem with the civil/mil interaction in such airspace. If anyone chooses to operate in Class G, then so be it. It has nothing to do with the Russians (or indeed anyone else) playing due regard.

PS. I don't feel persecuted. :) (well, maybe by my wife).

[ZOOKER]

anotherthing,
Good point, - deafan the b***ards!

[PPRuNe Radar]

Pprune radar
Lurking123's post of yesterday @ 18:44 and Fox3 of 05:30 today are on the money. Outside of 12 NM off shore the military can do as they wish. In the UK there is a gentleman's agreement with the US military to abide by the civil rules.

My post yesterday confirms that I know they are operating under international law and outside the 12NM coastal limit. I also acknowledge they have a right to do so. Our own military seem to get much more upset about them operating there than we do on the civil side :}

PPR, my point is that your comment was about Class G or TRAs and you seemed to have a problem with the civil/mil interaction in such airspace. If anyone chooses to operate in Class G, then so be it. It has nothing to do with the Russians (or indeed anyone else) playing due regard.

I have no problem with the interaction at all and regularly provide a service in that airspace under the challenging conditions of unknown traffic. It goes with the turf.

I am not sure you recognise that on many occasions aircraft have no option but to operate in Class G, since there is NO Controlled Airspace for them to use. And that is their fault ?? For those who have a choice and make a short cut, then I agree, they take their chances, but don't be so dismissive of those who have to operate in airspace where the expected level of protection cannot be attained because the establishment of an adequate airspace structure has been blocked by other airspace users who are defending their own needs and goals.

The effects of interractions actually are exactly the same when comparing 'due regard' and Class G operations. The pilots are jointly responsible for providing separation from other airspace users and ATC can only do their best to aircraft receiving a service based on a lack of known intentions. Nothing more or nothing less intended when making my point.

[Ginjav]

The answer some of the initial questions:

"UK Airspace" as seen in this (Air Defence) context is the UK's Air Defence Region (UKADR), which is an area selected to fulfill the requirements of defending the United Kingdom and her Maritime Approaches, and the additional requirements which fall on the UK through membership of NATO. As you can imagine, such a selection is not based on the UK FIR, nor is it limited to the legal definitions of territorial limits (although in peacetime, such legal limits inform decision making and action during QRA). Its shape and geographical dimensions are in fact significantly different to those used for ATC tasks.

International law grants several important rights of self defence which allows for the interception of aircraft well outside territorial limits, which is vital given the nature of the task. Waiting for your potential aggressor to cross the old 12 mile limit isn't really viable any more. :ok:

[rab-k]

Even when returning from a jolly to Venezuela to give Sr.Chavez a joy-ride in the right hand seat, the Blackjack drivers and their Ops were decent enough to provide FPL info, and chat on HF, but were never in receipt of an IFR clearance, despite being in 'Class A' all the way.

On a few occassions the RAF have even ventured beyond 10W in 'hot pursuit' of 'Ivan' and have themselves operated 'Due Regard'. Even so, and within our 'Class A' airspace, if someone doesn't want to play ball in terms of an IFR clearance, then there ain't a great deal we can do about it, other than to tell everyone else to check TCAS and look out da' window...

http://www.abfnet.com/forum/images/smilies/tomcat2.gif

[Satcomuk]

Many thanks indeed for all the replies
I realised when posing the questions that a veritable can of worms was about to be opened....but didn't quite appreciate the complexity of the situation.

In the Blackjack scenario I suppose it's all academic as a true hostile would have dispatched its payload and been on the way home many miles outside the 12 mile limit ( which , in itself is but a few 90 seconds flying time from terra firma ! )

The F3s were obviously making it known that they were in traffic flow mode ( sqawking the NATO policing code ) but little more.

There's an interesting BBC clip here from a couple of years ago BBC NEWS | UK | Stark option in frontline terror fight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4351622.stm) for anyone who hasn't already seen it.

[Lurking123]

Don't believe everything you see on BBC. Good for viewers and PR but, professionally, a bunch of chaps creating a storm in a teacup. That said, they do tend to be a little 'focussed'. :cool:

[normally right blank]

Don't be too hard on Cortinas! They were top of the line.
(See Historisk Racing Norge :: View topic - Tips: '65 Lotus Cortina racer med nybygd motor m.m. (http://forum.historisk-racing.no/viewtopic.php?t=982&sid=11682a79353e8e023d3e93700f5692e6))
(Fossil Team Racing)

And about hunting bears:
King Carlos of Spain got some good points, when he told Chavez to shut up.
Now down a little by killing a drunken bear!

Submitting flight plans are "one small step" in my opinion.

Good stunt last Christmas. To be repeated? :D

[BIRD2008]

I doubt that the Russians would go within the 12 Nm line surrounding Nato state. It is an act of war to do that. In the case of Iceland they have been coming here for many years, but never within the 12 miles. It would have too much political backfall for them.

However if they Russians were to attack they would drop of their missiles way before getting close to the target. What they are doing are making practice runs, gather electronical data and being seen. There is no military risk in these flights, only risk for civil traffic and thats limited by the likes of us.

Commrade Putin just has to play with his toys!

[Jagohu]

Act of war might be a bit strong expression for that... It could be a "navigational error" though, or a "technical problem" or something like that... I guess we've all seen&heard that enough...

[BOAC]

I doubt that the Russians would go within the 12 Nm line surrounding Nato state. What - you mean like they did in the 70's? OK OK - it was the East German Airforce - you were right............................

[Lon More]

Re "Due Regard" Night duty at Scottish many years ago (Gailes was closed, Ulster gone to bed) WAAF gives me a strip on a Nimrod returning from a low level mision somewhere. Something was strange, It took several minutes before I realised it was doing a "climb under radar" to crusing level. Subsequent investigation revealed the radar in use was its own.