Beating the Rex Bond

[PennyBenjamin]

Anyone with any news on beating the Rex bond, a few have gotten off without paying it, any details, the name of the lawyer who has dealt with the case would be nice. Appartently they are suing for the outstanding bonds and for breach of the agreement, and extra 7-10 grand on top of the bond! A nice way to treat former employees, Singapore style.

[nick2007]

Well... it is/was a contract. And it is aviation...
"You can't have your cake and eat it too."

[Capt Claret]

No wonder bonding is de rigueur.

[compressor stall]

Sometimes pilots are their own worst enemies.

Next you'll be jumping up and down shouting how unfair it is that you have to pay up front for an endorsement for your Jetstar or DJ job.

It's precisely the reason that selfish people like that (you?) that have caused companies to introduce pay up front. :mad:

Rex has invested time and money into you. It is your duty - as you willingly agreed - to see out your return of service or pay up the remainder of the bond - as you had previously agreed.

It's got nothing to do with Singapore style, hamster style or any other style. You've tried to shaft them by scrounging out of an agreement you entered into, and they are trying to get back what is theirs. Fair enough.

For once I am with Rex. And this has nothing to do with the (lack of?) EBA negotiations. :=

[bushy]

If you don't want to work there, then don't go there in the first place.

[KRUSTY 34]

Well said C.T.

I don't think many here would be more outspoken about the H.R. skills (or lack thereof) of REX. But mate! Fair's fair. I don't agree that at this or higher levels of aviation that companies are doing themselves a service by requiring already "experienced" pilots to fork out 10's of thousands of dollars for the "privilige" of working for them.

I do agree however, that the bond is an equitable and fair alternative. Take your lumps mate. Do the right thing. :{

Krusty!

[apache]

Krusty old mate... I HAVE to disagree with you here.
the reason that pilots are paid a TRAINING wage, and LOWER than fair wages over the first three years at REX, is a hngover from the KD/ZL days when there was no bond or upfront payment for the type rating. The way the current REX board has it, they are double-dipping with regards screwing new recruits.
IF the company wants to keep employees..... well we BOTH know the answer to that one!

As for beating the bond.... I would suggest it would be fairly easy! just list the ways in which the COMPANY has not abided by the EBA, and then put it to THEM that THEY were the ones who first broke the agreement, hence all bets are off! and I would bet a penny to a pound, that you could find SOME WAY in which they have broken their end of the bargain.

[Muff Hunter]

good luck Penben,

I paid mine and it made me sick to fork out my hard earned to those F#$k'n pricks....

be interesting to find out how the others got out of it, maybe I can get my coin back!!

[Cravenmorehead]

I agree with the obviously older heads regarding bonds. I think a bond is a gentlemans agreement between employee and employer. It is WRONG to depart before you have done your time. As others have noted it is no wonder that Virgin and Jet Star are making pilots pay for endorsements when this sort of thing happens.
A couple of years back I was bonded for 2 years and was offered a better job about a month into my bond tenure. I could have paid the bond out but I elected to stay as the bond in no way covered the costs of endorsing me and all the other trimmings. I just felt I had a moral obligation to the organisation concerned. I never regretted it and they now pay me handsomely.
I implore the selfish ones to reconsider when thinking of jumping bond, it gives us all a bad name. Remember it is a very small industry and deeds done now will come back to haunt you. Just ask any survivor of the War.

[404 Titan]

apache

Just like the bond, those that signed the contract knew what the pay deal was. This doesn’t make it right but in this industry Karma has a way of coming around and bighting you on the bum. Either do your time or pay out your bond and use it as a good life lesson.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Bonds rarely hold up in court!

Dr :8

[geeup]

When you first joined REX you knew the deal and signed the bond. It must have seemed worth it at one point... now just pay it.:ugh:

Upfront payment is just wrong :mad:

[morno]

Goes to show the audactiy of some pilots. I've come across a lot that say "I'm just gonna do it to get ahead so I can get a jet job". I don't know how many I have warned, that going to Rex is only going to make them whinge and whine in 12 months time, about how much they hate it there and want to get out. And so far, I have only come across 1 who hasn't whinged and whined, and is actually still there.

If you go there, do the company (and all future pilots) a favour, STAY THERE! For at least the term of your bond.

I remember seeing a letter written by Rex Management, that basically said "We're not going to pay you more, because you're all just going to go anyway". Now that I think about it, I don't blame them. Anyone that goes there with the attitude I quoted above, deserves to be screwed over. All they're doing is making it worse for those following them.

Compressor Stall, I completely agree with you.

morno

[Mach E Avelli]

Even if, as the Dr says, bonds rarely hold up in court, you really need a very strong reason to break one. Simply being pissed-off with the company is no excuse - most pilots suffer from this malaise at times. To get out with any shred of honour you would need to take them on for some clear breach of their side of any agreement, and show that you had objected to whatever the breach was, but to no avail. Examples could be illegal rostering, repeated late payment of salary or allowances, failure to provide a safe working environment etc.
Or you could deliberately fail a check ride, or tell the boss what you think of him at the Xmas party (or roger his missus) of course. But when your next potential employer does due diligence, all but the last of these tactics would likely bite you on the bum just as bad as jumping the bond.

[Howard Hughes]

I think a bond is a gentlemans agreement between employee and employer.
A gentlemans agreement is what we had in the good old days, a bond is what we have now due to the lack of gentlemen...:rolleyes:

[porch monkey]

Pretty typical of attitudes these days. " want all the rights, but you can take the responsibilities and shove 'em up your arse". When will they learn.

You signed the agreement, be man enough or have the morals to live up to it.

[legaleagle73]

Regional Express Holdings Ltd (ACN 099 547 270) v Clarke [2007] FCA 957 (29 June 2007) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2007/957.html)

[Wally Mk2]

I think the general feeling here is that paying for an endo is like paying to get a job. Right or wrong that's the way the world turns, today. But funny you know we ALL have 'paid' to get a job flying, right from the very first day we handed over our first buck to learn to fly!


WMk2

[scumbag]

post of the year howard! :D

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Had a flick through the case provided by leagleagle73 and whilst yes, Matthew Clarke won the appeal and didn't have to pay the bond he lost on costs and ended up having to pay his own.

I'd be curious to know how much more or less than $7500 it cost him in the end......

UTR

[compressor stall]

Very true UTR. A phyrric, and immoral, victory

BTW - have you got very long arms? I thought you'd be two orders of magnitude closer to your keyboard than you have listed. ;):E

[ernie blackhander]

broken bond twice now. yes it is an agreement and both times i have upheld my end and paid it out. good tax deduction too cause it is all work related training.

[apache]

I believe that the AFAP picked up the tab on this one. I also have it on good authority that the case is NOT over, and REX are spending big $$$$ chasing the $7500, because they, like other airlines, do NOT want a precedent to be set.

[Windy Chester]

There's always one trying to ride the system.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Stallie - you're the first in 4 years to notice (including me - if memory serves I was pissed when dreaming that up)! You must be even more bored than I am reading legal cases!

UTR.

[/thread drift]

[the wizard of auz]

Very true UTR. A phyrric, and immoral, victory
Strewth Stallie, thats twice I've seen that word this year.........I think you used it both times.

[Capt Claret]

It is my understanding that if binding is covered by one's AWA/EBA, then it's enforceable. If bonding does not appear in said documents, but is a side contract, then its enforceability is more doubtful.

[Muff Hunter]

the bond at this time was not in the rex eba but added later....

so clarke had every right to contest it......and won...

rex would have spent a packet on the QC and others (100k+) seeing on how long it went for....

suck ****e i say.....

maybe if they paid their f/o's / pilots what their worth, they would not have this problem in the first place!!

[apache]

And of course, the last paragraph in the EBA states "both parties agree that NO further claims will be entered into during the course of this EBA".... or words to that effect.
REX adding this to Mr Clarkes terms of employment constitutes a breach of EBA, therefore I wouldn't think that in this case, the extra clause would be enforceable at all.

The fact that it has SINCE been added to, and approved in the EBA makes it a tad harder.... but NOT impossible.

[who_cares]

Seems ppl are all happy to break the bond and not pay it out, but then go and fork out 30K on a jet rating.

beats me

[Wally Mk2]

'who_cares' too true about the jet rating costs but I think when one gets to that level of flying that's it, there is not further to go other than perhaps a sideways shift & a couple of years bonding (if that's the case) goes quickly when you believe yr at the end of the line. At the regional level these days it appears to not be a life long career move for most hence if you can get out of the bond legally & move on as in this particular case then some will try.
Mr Clarke won in the eyes of the law, but as we all know sh1t sticks in the aviation business big time & it's like being on an Island, there's nowhere to hide.

WMk2

[rmcdonal]

Are those pay figures correct!?!?
No wonder your all leaving, I made more in GA flying a single! :hmm::ugh:

[Mach E Avelli]

When breaking a bond, some things you MUST do, for your own future's sake. Give the required notice. On or before final day, go into the boss's office with a cheque for the outstanding amount on the bond. Tell him you will exchange it for a clearance letter which clearly states that you are leaving of your own accord and have discharged the bond. Make sure your final paycheque is in the bank, with any accrued leave paid out, before clearing the cheque.
That way, you have ammunition if they later bag you with a poor reference. If you can prove that one, you could sue if any untrue statement had been made. It is also something to take to interview for when any future employer raises doubts about your integrity because of your short period of service after taking the type endorsement training (if they know their stuff they work all this out from your logbook).
But as others have said here and before - if you do a runner you screw those who would follow you. It happened so often in the past and that is why employers now bond. IMHO this is preferable to making the pilot pay up front for the training, but if we as a breed make a practice of snivelling on bonds every operator will require pre-paid training in future.

[Chuck_YeagerBomb]

"We're not going to pay you more, because you're all just going to go anyway".

One of the responses to a high attrition rate was the Rex cadetship program...I'd be intrigued to see whether any of the Rex cadets honour their 6 year bond given the prospect of possibly remaining on FO wages throughout this entire period. Personally I don't see these guys enduring the full wack of this bond!:ouch:

[snoop doggy dog]

State Industrial laws have more protection for workers when a company has a training wage and a bond. It is plain rude and unfair to have an EBA/ Agreement which agrees to this. := Certainly something that a good industrial lawyer points out when knocking up these agreements. It's one or the other, NOT both.

Usually the company walks away, as it is a waste of time and money for both parties. REX, will no doubt have an influx of experienced operators lining up at their doors, to be treated like a fool and paid chickens' feed, with all the good press they get for treating their workers soo well. :ugh:

All the best beating them. :ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

I know little of REX other than what I glean here. However my impression is that if you jump bond they will hunt you down whatever the legal cost to themselves. In the greater scheme of an aviation business 100 grand or even double that for lawyers and court appearances is nothing. They are fully aware that the 'law' has financially broken more than one individual trying to defend a position - whether morally right or not - and WILL call your bluff. To do anything less would be loss of face. Ask anyone who ever tried to duck out on Singapore Airlines what happens to bond-breakers.

[povopilot]

This isn't entirely on topic, but why would anyone in their right mind pack up and move to sydney, to a job that you are bonded to, for 40k per year.

What is the average rent for a house/unit near YSSY? Add in possible loan repayments for your training and you end up eating the same 2 minute noodles that you were eating while bashing around the bush in a C206. No wonder he didn't pay back the bond, he would have been struggling enough just to buy groceries.

Is this what I have to endure when I finally have enough hours up to throw some resume's out there?. I am much better off in my current job, it is easy, I get paid 45k+ plus incentives and do not have to pay for internet/phones, let alone the privilege of getting my job in the first place.

I don't care about earning big bucks, I would be satisfied being able to tell my boss to "stick it, I'm going to fly aeroplanes" - But you have to be able to afford to live.

Apologies for ranting, but I have mates that left school at 16, did a trade and now own houses/BMW's/their own business. They got paid while doing thier training and love their jobs. I am still working in retail 4 years after finishing year 12 and all the money I get goes towards paying for flying training. After I finish training and get a job for a couple of years to get my hours up, I may be able to apply for a job at REX or the like and then proceed to get paid about the same as my mates were when they were 18. They will be 10 years in front of me.

Off to watch the cricket now before the men in white suits come to take me away.....

povopilot

[DanArcher]

I am still working in retail 4 years after finishing year 12 and all the money I get goes towards paying for flying training. After I finish training and get a job for a couple of years to get my hours up, I may be able to apply for a job at REX or the like and then proceed to get paid about the same as my mates were when they were 18. They will be 10 years in front of me.

know that feeling..... it gets worse to! :{ wait til the bank sends you a letter "we are very dissapointed you have not kept your promise....) :\

[Dave Incognito]

Lester you’ve hit the nail on the head.

Whatever failings people may think the Rex recruitment process may have, one thing you couldn’t fault is the amount of detail provided re bond, pay, basings etc. All this info is provided before you have even been accepted. During my interview they spent 5-10min going through the EBA pay scale and the details of how the bond worked.

Penny, you signed your name on the dotted line, deal with it and don’t crap in the nest of those that follow.

As for cost of living in Sydney (which seems to get a run here regularly), there is no requirement to live there. When I joined, a Sydney base required some level of seniority, i.e. everyone that was in SY had chosen to move there. From my observations, the Sydney crews were generally the unhappiest, so much so that I ended up refusing to pax there and fill in when they were short of crew. Once again, you signed your name on the transfer request form, deal with the reality.

[Horatio Leafblower]

As others have said, beating Rex (or any other employer) in exiting from your legally (or perhaps just ehically) binding contract is neither "clever" nor ethical.

Rex remained unique amongst the established players over the last 5 years, during which "pay to play" became industry standard. They did not follow Impulse, Jetstar or Virgin to that very low ebb.

Like QF mainline, Rex not only PAYS FOR your training but PAYS YOU to do it. It's a good deal.

EVEN QANTAS MAINLINE BONDS PILOTS.

As Dave Incognito pointed out, you knew the bargain when you went in... don't try to weasil out of it now.

When I grew up, a gentleman's word was his bond. Seems that honour is only measured in $50 notes these days :{

[Howard Hughes]

Seems ppl are all happy to break the bond and not pay it out, but then go and fork out 30K on a jet rating.
Where they will do the same when as soon as they have the qualifications for a job on a 'BIGGER' jet...:rolleyes:
Seems that honour is only measured in $50 notes these days
Probably because Economics and Accounting Grads seem to run everything these days...:sad:

[Socket]

Horatio,

Read the court decision, the bond agreement was clearly NOT legally binding.

Morally binding is another thing altogether, personally I reckon if you sign on the dotted line then you have given your word.

In any case, the court decision makes it clear, if the bond agreement is not IN the award/awa/eba and if the award/awa/eba doesnt specificaly allow for it then the bond agreement isnt worth the paper it was printed on.

Looks like you all get off scott free.

Merry Christmas

[apache]

Agreed... Fair is fair, and your word is your bond. NO PROBLEMS WITH THAT WHATSOEVER!
HOWEVER..... it is a TWO WAY contract. and WHEN REX start breaking their end of the contract, does that mean that YOU have to take a moral high ground because you signed the same document that REX did?

Why is it that companies can get away with blue murder against a pilot/pilot body, but as soon as a pilot decides to play by the same rules, they are ridiculed or slammed by their peers?or even worse, SUED by former employer for using the same rules as the company uses?

WHEN a pilot signs on, they agree to pay a bond if they leave. THE COMPANY also agrees to all the other terms and conditions in the contract. it is a TWO WAY document.... why shouldn't Penny look for a loophole in it??? I am sure as sh!t the company would... and they WOULD rip you off to the letter of the agreement if they could.

And when you get to the next interview, and they ask why you refused to pay your bond... the simple answer is, "I lived up to MY end of the bargain. I don't know what YOU'VE heard, but I can hold my head up high and say 'I did everything I was ethically required to do' "

Of course, this probably will NOT be brought up in the interview, as you would have DONE the interview prior to leaving!

[morno]

What is it that Rex have done that has broken the 'contract'?

When will the majority of the pilot body, realise that all they're doing, is ****TING in the nest that everyone else has to follow in! They all whinge and whine about not enough pay, ****ty conditions. No wonder! Like I said, if everyone didn't f:mad:k it up, then we wouldn't have questions like this being posed and the ****ty pay and conditions that we have.

Rant over

morno

[Socket]

Morno,

If companies require certain skills off their employees they should be training their employees, bonding does nothing more than push that cost on to someone else, either another company by hiring only those who already have the skills or their own employee's by bonding. Its greedy and I believe unethical.

By pilots and engineers accepting bond agreements for training THAT THE COMPANY REQUIRES TO OPERATE they have caused the current situation, companies can have their cake and eat it too.

No need to consider paying employees what their skills are worth if you whack a bloody great bond over their head, employee's cant leave because they cant afford to pay the bond because we pay them crap. If they dont sign a bond we wont give them the training that would qualify them to leave for a better position, and since we pay them bugger all they cant afford the training themselves.

That said, if you do sign that bond, ethically if not legally you should honour it.

Unions should have knocked this bond crap on the head right at the beginning.

I cant imagine anyone suggesting a prospective RAAF pilot or police officer should pay a bond for their training.


Ducks for cover.:ooh:

[Horatio Leafblower]

RAAF pilots have a return of service obligation which is, as I recall, about 9-12 years. Mate of mine tells me the payout figure is in the order of $100,000. (he also noted that he didn't know anyone who had broken their ROSO and that the figure is only a hazy recollection)

As I said above, QANTAS bonds their pilots.

They are giving you some very valuable skills. They're not just throwing money at your logbook like your Mum and Dad did - in return for their investment they want you to use those skills for Rex, not intending that you can just be a prostitute and go work for the highest-bidding competition.

[Dave Incognito]

apache,

WHEN REX start breaking their end of the contratc, does that mean that YOU have to take a moral high ground because you signed the samle document that REX did?

No it means you take it to the Rex PC and/or the AFAP. Trying to sort out collective problems with an 'army of one' mentality usually achieves very little for the group as a whole.

Socket,
bonding does nothing more than push that cost on to someone else

Have a bit more of a think about that. The company covers the cost of training in return for a commitment from the trainee that they will stay long enough to provide a return on the investment. If you stay to the end of your bond period (2 years at Rex) you can walk away without ever handing over a cent.

If enough people leave without honouring this agreement then the company will eventually decide that the only way to stop the financial drain in training is to charge people up front. i.e. jetstar, virgin, Q link. No matter how long you stay that money is gone forever. All you have done is bugger it up for those following you.

I cant imagine anyone suggesting a prospective RAAF pilot or police officer should pay a bond for their training.

You can’t be serious? As Horatio mentioned above, the ‘bond’ runs around 9 years depending on where you end up in the defence force and has been in place for a very long time. Makes the civilian equivalents look tame in comparison.

[apache]

No it means you take it to the Rex PC and/or the AFAP

which is EXACTLY what Mr Clarke did, and YOu all criticise him for that. The AFAP agreed to fight the case, and they won... what does that tell you?

[povopilot]

Dave Incognito,

"OFFER OF EMPLOYMENT [REX]

I am pleased to offer you employment with [REX] on the terms set out in this letter.

Commencement12 January 2004PositionSAAB (SF340) First Officer DepartmentFlight OperationsLocationSydneyReporting toChief PilotEmployment StatusFull timeAnnual Salary$27,000 per annum plus Superannuation



I could have sworn that this says "Location: Sydney"

Of course you don't have to live there but surely it would make life easier if you lived in the same city that you worked in.

[neville_nobody]

I cant imagine anyone suggesting a prospective RAAF pilot or police officer should pay a bond for their training.

Yep RAAF have ROSO which is legally binding they also give you no credit for any of the flying you do. So if you get scrubbed on your second last flight before graduation and you want to get a civy license you have to start at day one again!!

NSW Police make you pay for some of the training to be a policeman. I don't believe there are ROSO requirements there though.

[Dave Incognito]

apache,

I wasn’t referring to the specific case you mentioned in an earlier post. However, now that I have read the link, as I see it, the case is based on an:

inconsistency or conflict was said to arise because the Training Bond and the Certified Agreement provided differently for the same ‘matters’

Fair enough, legally there is a flaw in that EBA ’03 doesn’t mention a bond letter and it states “matter arising under this Act”. It doesn’t change the fact that the bloke signed a document agreeing to receive training and an endorsement at the expense of the company in return for a period of service.

After all as you said:

Agreed... Fair is fair, and your word is your bond. NO PROBLEMS WITH THAT WHATSOEVER!

Would it have been different if it was simply a handshake that they agreed the return of service upon?

I would bet a penny to a pound, that you could find SOME WAY in which they have broken their end of the bargain.

I’ll say it again, if you have a problem with the company not meeting it’s obligations in the EBA, you should help sort it out for everyone, not just use it as some self justification to skip your bond.

I’m not arguing this on behalf of the benefit of the company, in fact quite the opposite . My gripe is that a lot of people sign the bond and then try to side step it on technicalities. This will eventually lead to the company believing there is too much contempt for the bond and an inability to trust new employees word. Enter the pay up front scenario which benefits nobody but the company.

I wouldn’t have ended up working for Rex had I been required to front up with a cheque for 15k on day one. I simply don’t want this to happen to young guys following in our footsteps because of people’s inability to stay true to their word.

povopilot,

I notice that you have just cut and paste that letter from the link on page one. Everyone’s letter is different depending on where Rex needs them. My location stated ‘Base - to be confirmed’. Rex has numerous bases (covering several states) which get allocated on seniority just prior to date of joining. You get asked in the interview for your preferences, then if successful you get to choose from the remaining options after they have called everyone on course (again in order of seniority).

Following that, on day one, you get a base transfer request form to submit if you are not happy with where you ended up. Certainly when I joined, if you didn’t want to live in Sydney, it was easily avoided.

Edit: typo

[chief wiggum]

Dave,

I have heard before that sometimes people get a letter saying "base to be confirmed". The base is sometimes NOT confirmed until after the ground school in which case the pilot has had to pay his or her own accommodation for the 4-5 weeks, then told he/she has to move, all the while also having to be in ml for sim training.

is this true?

[Dave Incognito]

I have heard that at least one group were given a ‘temporary’ Sydney base for the duration of their ground/sim training. The idea behind this was that the company didn’t have to provide them accommodation in Sydney during ground school as per the EBA. Once they were ready for line training they were then awarded a permanent base either somewhere else in the network, or in Sydney if they so desired. As far as I’m aware they were still entitled to flights between Sydney/Melbourne and accommodation whilst in Melbourne (as anyone permanently based in Sydney is).

Last I heard was that the Rex PC were disputing the legality/ethics of this. Still not sure what the outcome was or how many people it affected (I’m no longer at Rex). I would have certainly preferred that the resources of the union were directed towards matters like this rather than individuals arguing the legality of bailing early on signed bond agreements.

[chief wiggum]

so what you are agreeing is that the company has done stuff which is ethically wrong, and in contradiction to the EBA, which ends up costing some pilots much $$$$ they can ill afford, but disagree that the pilots should not use the same rules to save themselves $$$ when they can?

Basically the company found a loophole in the EBA to save a few bucks... exploited it to THEIR advantage whilst disadcantaging the poor pilot.

Regards regional airlines trying to get pilots to pay up front for their training.... just look at what happened at QFLink when they tried that!

[Dave Incognito]

Like I said I’m not going into bat for the company. I think the pilots should use the appropriate channels to make sure the company is held to the EBA. A bunch of people saying, “Oh look what they did to those guys, dodging my bond will teach them” doesn’t fix a thing. Like I said, I’m not there anymore, but everyone I know who tried to side step the bond were provided with accom etc as per the EBA during their training. Where do you draw the line? Should the guys who got temporary placements in Sydney take sickies to make up the financial loss? How does that help future employees? If it was such a huge sticking point they shouldn't have accepted the offer in the first place. (Just to clear things up as well, you are only entitled to accom if you are not based there, so if these people ended up staying on in sydney they were never entitled to it in the first place. Again this happened around when I was leaving so din't know the full story)

Surely, we should strive for both parties to be acting in accordance to what they agreed to by using a united front. Tit for tat solves nothing. Reading some of the posts here, I honestly believe that often pilots are their own worst enemy.

Regardless of all of the above, bonds, wages, basings etc., are all disclosed before you are required to sign your letter of employment. If any of that is a surprise then you either didn’t read the contract or didn’t ask enough questions. In my entire time at Rex, my terms and conditions were exactly as advertised as per the contract I was sent with my offer of employment. I read it until I knew it backwards and even carried it in my nav bag after I was employed. If you don’t want to be bound by the bond, have the balls to tell them that in the interview.

As for Qlink, I wouldn’t have a clue what their current arrangement is. I stopped caring when I got into Rex. All I know for sure is that when I was doing ground school we often used to bump into Eastern guys down on Botany Rd in the evenings. We had – a wage (albeit a training wage) going into our account from day one, a hotel room, lunch provided every day, flights to and from our interstate bases every weekend, all without a single dollar of our own handed over. The Qlink guys were paying for their own accom, their endorsements, and weren’t even guaranteed a job at the end of it. So when you are saying look what happened, I would say I saw a heap of pilots who where prepared to accept the offer on the table.

[chief wiggum]

All I am saying is that when there is an agreement between two parties, BOTH SIDES need to honour that agreement.

Me sidestepping the bond because I didn't believe that the company had held up their side of the agreement, is akin to me entering into an agreement to buy a fridge for $2000 with repayments over a two year period. When said fridge arrives something goes wrong with the fridge inside the two year warranty period.... and the person I bought the fridge from will not fix it. WHY should I keep paying in that instance?

Regards Qlink.... once they started making people PAY ten grand for a dash endorsement, the pool of available candidates dried up RAPIDLY. They are now back in the situation where QL pays for the endorsement, and, I believe, pilots are bonded.

Rex already have crewing issues... they do NOT need to exacerbate the situation by scaring off GA drivers who can't afford to fork out $$$$ up front.

[Dave Incognito]

Fair enough, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I still think if you feel that you have been let down in regards to your agreement it is best to try and remedy that issue rather than taking things into your own hands. If my fridge was busted and they wouldn’t replace it I’d go to the consumer commission. Only then will things improve.

As I said, I’ve never had an issue with the company holding up their end of the deal when I was there. Occasionally I had scheduling try and pull a swifty, but a quick mention of the EBA and that was always sorted. The temporary basing was the only apparent reduction of conditions during my stint and even though it didn’t effect me, several of us contacted the appropriate Rex PC members to have it raised with management.

I am genuinely interested to know what has happened to people outside of the EBA that left such a bitter taste in the mouth as to renege on their training agreement.

If the Qlink guys are now on similar entry to conditions as Rex (i.e. getting paid during training), that’s great. I still worry though that the contempt many seem to show the signed bond will one day come around to disadvantage new starts.

Cheers.

[...still single]

Doesn't matter if REX fails to uphold their end of the contract, that is a stand-alone issue and it does not void the obligations of the other party.

As for QLink bonding, it says on their website "full cost of the Type Rating"

How much is that? I've asked them, but I never received an actual figure??

FSI charge about $34k for a DHC-8 type rating, if QLink is anything like that, I think it's a bit steep.

[beeva]

povopilot,

Excuse my ignorance as I am not in the airline loop, but is that $27,000 a training wage? and if so what would you be on after checked to line?
stunned....I was earning this as a station pilot flying around the bush 12 years ago...

[Altimeters]

It used to be. Now it's around the 30k mark. Once checked to line or served 3 months, whichever comes first you go up to something like 42k. Although the new EBA still hasn't arrived yet so this could change.

[the wizard of auz]

Strewth, I used to get $52PA for bashing a C210 around........ I don't know that I would be committed enough to drive for that amount of money, as well as being bonded..... Career advancement indeed. :ugh:

[Wally Mk2]

As long as you get pilots willing to fly for those sorts of low wages then the likes of REX will continue to exploit them (pilots). It aint rocket science here guys REX is just another employer with costs in a cut throat world & at the top with greedy owner/s probably. There is no direct answer to how to get fair wages but if there was one then it would have to come from the very people that created this situation, YOU, the pilots, the ones simply willing to accept their T&C's.
Simply put how does anybody live on those wages in SYD?


Wmk2

[laxrox43]

Forgive me if I missed the information somewhere along the way...but how long, and how much is REX's bond?

Thanks,
Lax

[Altimeters]

Lax it's $15,000 bonded for 2 years, IIRC.

[PennyBenjamin]

Great to hear from all of you, very interesting responses. My legal advice says that i am not liable for the bond, nor am i liable for the $6500 in breaches of the agreement. I have been threatened by REX that they know i am not liable, but they will keep me in the courts just until i spend over the said amount - sounds like fun.

Great to hear that REX have such support out there, i hope you have fun working for old mate the gun runner Lim King Kong. If you read the original quote, it asked for details on previous cases, not allegations or judgements on my actions, but thanks for those. Hey it is pprune i suppose, and i value all your opinions. But remember that agreements work both ways, and i didn't make accusations about their breaches because they are not for public consumption at the moment.

Enjoy and Merry Christmas (do they celebrate xmas in Singapore?)

[Led Zep]

Stick it to them, Penny.

[laxrox43]

It is sad to say that the pay scale at REX puts a lot of RPT operators (even Regional Jet operators) over in the United States to shame. The cost of living on the East Coast of the US is comparable to most major cities in AU. Although, I had quite the frugal lifestyle, I made it work. If I would move to AU to continue my flying career, and REX was the only way, I could make it work. Now, I do not agree with managements mentality, "Oh...they will get their time and leave, so therefore, we do not have to pay them well." But like I said, if REX is my gateway to flying in AU and truly "Living the Dream," (once I move on to greener pastures, naturally) I would definitely consider it. "Living the Dream in the US, flying-wise, is long gone. Plus, a 2-year stint really isn't that long. Just my 2 cents.

Lax

PS. If I really had my druthers, I would prefer to work for QLink. But like Mic Jagger says, "You can't always get what you want..."

[Kangaroo Court]

Oh no! Using the old American rationale for everything again...

Australia does not have 48 percent of the world's flying and we don't have a J-1 Visa program to get cheap foreign-national labour. The scam in America is not only do they know you will leave, they want you to leave so they can make way for more trainees.

The world is full of people who think the streets are paved with gold in America, which seems to be left over from soap operas of the golden age of television.

Regional Airline flying in Australia is not some extension of a flying school to provide air travel to people who are too lazy to drive. It is an essential element of the infrastructure of the remote and highly profitable rural areas of Australia.

Airlines should not be taking this position lightly. At least some part of the entire economy, by extension, is partly on their shoulders should they fail.

[laxrox43]

I agree with you. When it comes to America, all they care about is the "Almighty Dollar." How can we outsource work to other countries with sweat shops? How can we legally bring people to live in the US to work for less? The reason so many people in America are out of work, is because our government thinks this way.

I agree that regional flying, primarily Turbo-Prop RPT ops, are essential for the airline business as well. The smaller aircraft with their excellent short-field performance, and fuel economy, allow airlines to branch out into smaller communities. Which in my opinion, is crucial for business.

[Horatio Leafblower]

the remote and highly profitable rural areas of Australia.

That's a new one on me. Where is this nirvana? :confused:

[Kangaroo Court]

You obviously don't know much about Australian exports. This "nirvana" does not exist, it's called hard work with associated risk in ensuring some level of balance in our exports.

You don't think mining takes place in remote areas? What about beef the majority of beef and grain production?

Without it you'd be importing even more food than we already do.