Industry Command Upgrade Requirments Data

[John Holmes]

Our industry is under enormous pressure and many First Officers are concerned about stalled careers and considering greener pastures. I personally doubt any pasture is green right now. It would be a helpful reality check to have the following data for as many airlines as possible.

1. Minimum length of service to upgrade?
2. Minimum flying experience to upgrade?
3. Does swinging propellors count, or must it be all jet time?
4. Upgrade aircraft type?
5. Current actual years to upgrade? (state "unknown" if no current training)
5. Low cost carrier or full service?
6. Which continent?
7. Airline trading name if not to much to ask?

Cheers

[Carmoisine]

1. Minimum length of service to upgrade?

No minimum length as such, but it is stated in our CU guidance material that you need two "good" or better grades in your last recurrant simulator sessions. That's at least 12 months.

2. Minimum flying experience to upgrade?

You have to have the following minima before you start CU. Not every single person is exactly on these minima, some have prior experience in other companys, but many do start the CU with these:

• 2900 hrs total time
• 1500 hrs on JAR 25 type aircraft
• 500 hrs on the B737-800

You also need one winter of winter Ops within the company, or one winter in a JAR-OPS company on type.

3. Does swinging propellors count, or must it be all jet time?

Prop time counts but subject to the conditions in point 2.

4. Upgrade aircraft type?

Just the one type. The 737-800

5. Current actual years to upgrade? (state "unknown" if no current training)

Was as low as 3 years. 3.5 seems to be more accurate just at the moment. However many deliveries still planned so the pace might pick up again in the spring.

5. Low cost carrier or full service?

Neither. Low Fares :p :ok:

6. Which continent?

Europe.

7. Airline trading name if not to much to ask?

Ryanair.

[unablereqnavperf]

Minimum requirements are one thing but ability is far more important, just because you meet the minimum requirements there is no guarentee that you'll get a command. With the current situation I'd be looking at what my current employer require of me to upgrade to captain and make sure that I'm up to the job!

[Mister Geezer]

To be honest, the requirements for command that many airlines publish in their Ops Manuals are not really worth the paper they are written on. If an airline needs to change the requirements then they will - all depends on 'supply and demand'!

[68+iou1]

Learn to fly the a/c and your upgrade will come. There is nothing worse than an fo that thinks he should be in your seat, because he has the hours.

They are the ones who normaly have problems with there upgrades!

[Hansard]

Mister Geezer is correct, it depends on the airline's requirements at any given time. We had a situation where FOs with very little TT, but enough time on type, were upgraded despite the OM because we needed Captains. Some of the other FOs have TT in 1000s more than the new Captains and a broader base of experience.

[parabellum]

Just to put things into perspective, as others have suggested too, achieving the company's minimum requirement is one thing, but that simply puts you in a holding pool, thereafter you still have to satisfy the other requirements, suitability and capability.

I can remember when one rather well known company in Hong Kong had a minimum requirement of 3500 hours for command but it was unlikely your number would come up until you had served at least seven years with them and you wouldn't get in with anything less than 2000 hours, probably more like 3000 hours of what they regarded as relevant experience, so command at around 6000 hours, possibly.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Minimum requirements are one thing but ability is far more important,But often not the case.

I would also agree with Mister Geezer's post.

It's not uncommon to see less then 3000 TOTAL (Captain + First Officers hours) experience on the flightdeck in the UK these days.

[northern boy]

Ability aside, and at that stage in your career you should have it anyway, what counts most of all is being in the right place at the right time, having the hours and seniority plus there being commands available. Thats the tricky bit and it can elude some for years.

Recessions don't help. Timing is everything, just like getting that first break.

[John Holmes]

Technical proficiency aside, that's quite a different topic.

What I am after is raw data on minimum requirements and experience as policy. Is the bar set generally low, is the industry average fairly high? What is normal, what is fair? The only way to find out is to ask around.

Thanks for your factual reply Carmoisine. Any more?

[stillalbatross]

CX pax fleet

Currently 14 years to command which I would say is around a min of 10 or 11000 hrs. Will go higher 18+ years with age 65.

[Carmoisine]

Mercenary Pilot

It's not uncommon to see less then 3000 TOTAL (Captain + First Officers hours) experience on the flightdeck in the UK these days.

That's not true. I work for one of the mobs who've had the lowest times to command in Western Europe of any narrow body Jet operator. While we did promote people to Capts. with 3000hrs TT, they couldn't fly with new Co-Pilots for their first hundred hours on the line. I joined with the bare minimum as a F/O, just over 200hrs, line training approx 100hrs, plus 100hrs probation=400hrs. New Captains 3000+100 restricted/probation=3100. 3500 was the theoretical minimum, which is 500 hrs more, which is nearly an extra years experience. On top of that it was not that common as you imply.

[Wizofoz]

That's not true. I work for one of the mobs who've had the lowest times to command in Western Europe of any narrow body Jet operator.

So it's not an airliner unless it's a jet? Perhaps you've noticed aeroplanes with those funny paddle things on the front of the engines? Some of us actually had to fly those before we got to fly a jet.

I'm sure there are Turbo prop operators with lower command criteria then your airline.

[TheKabaka]

I used to fly for a turbo prop operator where the capacity to breath + have an ATPL went a long way to gaining command (both were required!)

[68+iou1]

Propellers are for boats!
:O
I’m just playing with you!
Try 2000 hrs for t/p and 3000 for jets. Pax or cargo does not matter.
Chill boys and girls. When it comes it comes.
Nothing worse than an f/o who thinks he should be in your seat, because he has the hours. It’s not good for CRM and if he/she creates a bad atmosphere in the flight deck as an f/o. You have to wonder what sort of captain would he/she be?
Hours does not make a captain!

[Stop Stop Stop]

My airline has some jet captains with only 300 relevant hours before their upgrade. Prior to that they would have been Co-Co's (second officer cruise relief pilots who only operate in the cruise- hence no landings) for about 3 years then they would have done approximately six months as a first officer on the shorthaul fleets before their upgrade. Company seniority dictates that they are eligible for upgrade and if they can pass the course they wear four stripes.

A few months after their promotion to captain they could be flying with a new graduate with 200 hours.

Experience is nil but they know the manuals like the backs of their hands!

A bit different these days- and this side of the pond I suspect!

[Piltdown Man]

Sounds familiar!

PM

[raspberry]

Hi,

I received my command on a Boeing 737 NG with only 2600 hours total time (1100 hours instructing+1500 hours jet). My operator had to get dispensation from the CAA, which was approved. In my case I would say getting your command is about being in the right place at the right time, having the ability and getting on well with line Captains. I know for a fact our DFO was probing Captains about my character, and quite rightly so. With 2800 I was flying trans atlantic flight to the USA.

[mona lot]

Quote "With 2800 hours I was flying trans atlantic flight to the USA"

I am not surprised your DFO was probing your character if you are wiling to accept command of a 737 across the pond with just 2800 hours TT under your belt. Its the wrong aircraft for the job and 2800 hours is worth squat the Atlantic. CAA dispensations are worth Jack S*** when the S*** hits the fan.

So I wonder which operator could this be:hmm:?

What is this industry coming to:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:?

[SG Warrior]

Some Airline Truths...

The two worst things in a cockpit:

1. A First Officer who thinks he should be the Captain

2. A Captain who forgot what it was like to be a First Officer

=========================================

The two necessary mindsets in the cockpit:

First Officer: What is this asshole going to want me to do differently than the last asshole???

Captain: How is this idiot going to try and kill me differently that the last idiot ???

[Stop Stop Stop]

Sounds familiar!

Why Aye Man!

[Jimmy Do Little]

Requirment for Command Upgrade.....

Know how to say "No" to anyone (Company, ATC, Pilot, etc), but still have them respect you.

[B737NG]

It is up to the Operator how many hours/years you need to get a chance of upgrade. It needs more then only hours to lead a Airplane. Flying a Turboprop can be more demanding then flying a Jet.

It is just natural that a Pilot expects a upgrade. Too soon is not good at all, too late is too bad as well. It takes between 4 and 14 years......

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[Nil further]

EZY are putting their requirement up to 4000hr factored , it will save money on insurance and also there are so many guys waiting now that they are just wasting money putting people throught sims etc .

They are also putting the three bar (SFO) up to 2500 hrs , will save over a million pounds a year .

[scrubba]

johnholmes

what is as interesting is the command upgrade training that goes with this historically low total experience...

i was a little curious about what raspberry may have had to undergo to get his/her fourth bar - in my company, his/her total and jet experience at command upgrade would only just have been sufficient to get him/her a job as an fo. that is not to say that raspberry does not merit the command or any such thing, but i presume the 2 years of jet experience might leave a few gaps in knowledge and experience in all those other things unrelated to flying skills in which captains must be able to perform adequately

scrubba

[BelArgUSA]

Supply and demand is the rule with many operators.
Even going to hire direct entry captains, bypassing seniority.
As recency, 3 moon landings in last 90 days.
Space shuttle type ratings.
xxx
Happy contrails, right...?

[dash8pilotCanada]

I dont know about other companies. But in our company its pure supply and demand.
When there is a requirement for captains, the chief pilot looks at the most senior FOs on that type. He will also fly with them and asses if they are ready. We have no hours written in stone, ive seen guyz with 960 on type upgrade and ive seen one guy wait 8 years he had almost 3900 on type, but his number just never came up. There have even been cases where there were no suitable FO and DEC were hired. Also In our company TT is not very important.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Be the lowest bidder when it comes to the Ts and Cs u would be willing to accept for a command.

The futures bright, the futures orange.:mad: