12/12/'91 To 12/12/'08...How Far Have We Come??

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Its been 17 years now since the introduction of the 'Reduction of Services', commencing with the first 'trench' of the withdrawal of services to the Industry by announcing the demise of Flight Service on this day, 12/12/'91.

The day that full services to VFR aircraft disappeared.

'Affordable Safety'.....'Cost Recovery'.....'Your Safety Will Be Enhanced, and It Will Cost You Less'....All of those 'Mantras'....

Has it REALLY cost us ANY less - and has our SAFETY been enhanced??

How far have we REALLY come?

No more 'face to face' Briefing Office where all manner of comprehensive information was held.

'NAS' still not finalised....or is it? Millions of Dollars 'wasted'.

Further withdrawal of services / navaids etc.

Yet, still a 'profit' of around $100M or so returned to 'the major stakeholder' - the Govt. - And who provides this revenue?

I wonder what the next 17 years or so will bring? (WAAS, ADSB, 'Other' new technologies? Satellite VHF direct, Australia wide? )

I'm curious.....and sad - not for myself, I've 'retired' - but for the Industry as a whole.

We seem to have been sold a 'pup', promised so much, and its gone backwards......IMHO....and so much 'could' be done.
It can't be the $$'s - we return those to Govt.:ugh:

So what is the 'outlook' for the next 17 years I wonder?

Cheers:ok::ok:

[Howard Hughes]

So what is the 'outlook' for the next 17 years I wonder?
More penny pinching!

It seems to be the current 'modus operandi', nothing is ever done solely based on improving safety regardless of cost, it is all 'affordable safety' and 'risk minimisation'...:rolleyes:

[Howabout]

Griffo,

I think it was ever thus. I can't recall a minister with responsibility for aviation (regardless of the name of the dept or the colour of the party) ever having an understanding of the industry. It's always been a case of oiling the squeakiest wheels, knee-jerk reactions to prophesies of doom and keeping the head below the parapet.

There is no hope, I'm afraid, because there has been no one in power, and this applies equally to both Coalition and Labor govts over the last two decades, who ever understood aviation - particularly your regional variety and GA.

If you are adept at manipulating a lazy and ill-informed press, you've got far more chance of getting your views (and agenda) across. I offer the rubbish that is being floated about 'renegade controllers' that has been swallowed whole by aviation 'journalists'. I know it's rubbish because I know a lot of these guys and they would no more conduct 'covert industrial action' than murder their mothers.

I remain flabergasted that there is not one reporter in this wide continent who is capable of asking hard and pertinent questions. On the other hand, if you don't really know your subject, you wouldn't have a clue what to ask - it's far easier quoting the spin-doctors and, hey, the paycheck still goes in the bank and the dumb public is none the wiser.

[sms777]

C'mon Griffo, you could have waited another 3 years to make it a more remarkable date to remember.
I was a puppy back on the 12/12/91 but i have cried when they slammed the door in my face at the Bankstown briefing office. I never forget the empty feeling in my heart when i stood there with my flight plan in my hand waiting for some friendly face to look at it, frown, and simply throw it in the nearest bin and help me to do it right.:{:{
Do you know what?... I still have the same feeling today because nothing has changed despite all the new gadgets to help us making our life more comfortable...
No computers or simulated voice messages will ever replace you guys with your seasond knowledge and face to face conduct to help us fledging aviators to achive our dream and help keeping our skies safe. :sad:
As for our future...I guess it is all up to us because if we wait for our politicians to make it better for us... Well...we better start our campaign by sponsoring someone who has at least half an idea about aviation.

( Sorry Dick, you have had your chance ) :E

[Plazbot]

However you look at it, like society, it is farked.

[mostlytossas]

Some very good points raised, however it wasn't all beer and skittles then either. While most flight service guys were friendly and helpful there were a few little Hitlers too. It wasn't unusual to have a VFR plan refused due to him/her declaring the weather non VMC even though you could see Mittagong from Sydney if only they would step outside and look. At one time I seem to recall a move to have area supervisors with the authority to ground all VFR aircraft for 100's of miles around should they deem the wx non VMC. Thank god that one never got up. But that said they were usually very helpful in the more remote locations like Ceduna, Leigh creek etc. Full reporting died with them but to be honest technology was the cause of it's demise. I mean what is the real use of a rolling SAR with transponder coverage around the most flown areas, Satellite recievers of EPIRBS, extensive VHF coverage etc. There is only so many levels of coverage you can have before someone yells enough already.
The biggest problem we have today is the constant changing of the rules and procedures. First you are encouraged to file a plan to enter CTA then not to, now it's file one or you don't get in etc. Little wonder pilots make mistakes when the powers that be can't decide what they want.

[Binoculars]

Your last paragraph is spot on, tossas. but to say
While most flight service guys were friendly and helpful there were a few little Hitlers too. It wasn't unusual to have a VFR plan refused due to him/her declaring the weather non VMC even though you could see Mittagong from Sydney if only they would step outside and look is simply misquoting the facts. No FS briefing officer ever had the power to knock back a VFR flight plan.

It was generally similar to working air-ground on FS; look, we've just had a report of 12 octas of stratus at 150 feet and visibility zero in driving rain. Roger, thanks for that, we'll just push on and have a look. :ugh: No wonder some of us decided the whole job was a waste of time.

[mostlytossas]

I beg to differ. I remember quite clearly back in about 1983 I was learning to fly in Wagga and with an instructor we went on a nav to Bankstown in marginal but improving weather. After refuelling and having lunch I submitted my plan for the homeward run under the supervision of my instructor. FS refused to accept it due in their opinion ( on old forecasts.. non VMC ) We ended up flying home anyhow NO SAR NO DETAILS (remember that) in quiet good weather particularly west of the range.
It is something you never forget.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Sorry 'Tossas', but simply have GOT to support 'Binos' here!!

FS DID NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO AS YOU SUGGESTED. PERIOD!

Perhaps it was an 'over enthusiastic' ATCer - at the same counter at BK - who MAY have referred your plan to the SOC - that's SENIOR OPERATIONAL CONTROLLER - if they were still around then.
They had the authority.

And a few argumets have ensued about that too!!

BUT - NO FSO would even attempt to 'knock back' or refuse to accept your Plan. Why? We weren't allowed to! In other words, we did not have the authority - and many is the time in various 'outstations' have I taken a plan,
advised the pilot accordingly that 'this' was the latest weather, read '****house', and would he like a coffee(?), but as soon as he walks out the door and starts his engine, its all his!!

HE is the PIC - as it should be.....:}:}

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks for the thought 'SMS'!!
But, I saw the date today, and thought 12/12 now THAT's a prophetic date!

And, I may or may not still be around in 3 years time - so waste not the moment....

Cheers:ok::ok:

[peuce]

Hey Griffo,

It appears to me that they're bringing back Flight Service by stealth.


CAGRO Dubbo
CAGRO Wagga
CAGRO Harvey Bay
CAGRO Karatha
CAGRO Port Macquarie
CAGRO Avalon
CAGRO Broome
CAGRO Ayres Rock
CAGRO Williamtown ... ooppss, scratch that one!

Just that they're putting them in nicer places ... Meeka or Harvey Bay, let me think about that ?

[Desert Flower]

Its been 17 years now since the introduction of the 'Reduction of Services', commencing with the first 'trench' of the withdrawal of services to the Industry by announcing the demise of Flight Service on this day, 12/12/'91.

If that's the case then how come FS in my location shut up shop permanently on the eighteenth of December 1988?

DF.

[mostlytossas]

Well someone refused my plan,as I said you never forget these things and I do seem to recall it happening to others at times. Maybe other "elder" posters can confirm this. I do agree FS never had the authority to stop you flying or demand you take a certain route etc only ATC's could do that in CTA ofcouse as now. With time memory fades but I seem to recall it had something to do with liability. If in marginal wx after accepting a VFR plan that pilot came to grief the Dept would somehow be partly to blame whereas if they did not accept it and the the pilot departed anyway then it was on their head entirely.
Other things I remember from those days were asking about ALA's. Some FS officers used to bluntly say "don't know not a licensed airfield" while other would quietly bring out there little black diary and pull out all sorts of info and phone numbers for you. All unofficial ofcourse. Also route forecasts, if you were going 3 or more area's on a trip eg Wagga to Adelaide you qualified for a "route forecast" yipee! Then the day before you would ring FS with your flight details and the next day, wallah! it was all ready for you. With the advent of computers it is almost laughable now. Yes I still have fond memories of those days but as I said before it wasn't all beer and skittles. Enjoy your retirement anyhow you all...regards

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

"Tossas",

Yes, the liability issue was huge with the Dept generally.

Those who pulled out their 'little black book' or whatever, and gave you SOME info would have WISELY prefixed the advice with a 'disclaimer' something like its 3000ft long, etc etc "and we know nothing about it"!

But you got SOME basic info, usually culminating in the owners tel no, and even given the phone.....or generally would have been had you asked.

We were there to help.....or most of us thought so anyway.



"DF",
In the case of Perth FSC, we were the last to close as a FS unit on 15 Dec 2000.
Some staff stayed on a further 3 months or so providing HF comms on INTL services until that was eventually transferred to BN.

The reason it took 9 years from 12/12/91 to 15/12/2000?

INDUSTRY SUPPORT - Nothing better was offerred, various NAS reviews....some 'technical difficulties', and General Incompetence of those trying to close us at the time, IMHO....

I wonder if ANYTHING has REALLY changed, and what the NEXT 9 years, let alone 17, will bring...

Cheers:ok::ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

"Peuce",

I dunno!!! THAT's a HARD ONE!!! :}:}:yuk::yuk:

[Howard Hughes]

Well someone refused my plan,
I had many a plan thrown back at me!;)

The most memorable was when planing a flight from LT-EN, back in the days of old. I had planned direct (in a twin) for 61 minutes (due head winds) across water with no life raft.

FS: "I can't accept this plan as the maximum time from land without a life raft is 30 mins and this will be 30.5 mins"
ME: "How about I change my TAS by 5 knots and the time interval will be 59 minutes"
FS: "I'm sorry I couldn't accept that now, you will have to plan via Flinders Island":rolleyes:

So I planned via Flinders Island and gave a position report 'abeam' Flinders Island, some 60 NM 'abeam Flinders Island...:ooh:

[sms777]

You are a bad boy HH...:=
I am glad you are flying more responsibly these days ;)

:ok:

[flying-spike]

What about "Ok . put back the departure time by 30 min and I will go back to the hangar and pick up the life raft"....You were willing to bull**** about everything else!

20 years since I left Flight Service and I would go back to it today at the drop of a hat if the money was right (and I know it wouldn't be). Last shift was international at Perth. Nothing like spending 7.25 hrs with the HF cranked up writing down everything between the crackles and hisses on a (correct me if I'm wrong Griffo) A071?

[onthedials]

A little less than 20 years ago I was flying a single with 2 passengers when the engine went quiet (crankshaft gear came undone) and became a glider. Got a mayday into Sydney Flight Service and a thoroughly professional FSO quietened the frequency, got a rescue helicopter diverted and alerted the ground services in little more than the time it took to descend from 2500 feet with no power. Fortunately a happy outcome with noone hurt and only a bit of gear and flap damage. I later visited Sydney FS and meet the FSO who had helped me - a top bloke. While we might wonder where it's all gone - don't we all in so many things - I'm still grateful that Flight Service was there, a great team and one that could be relied upon when the chips were down. I can't say I experienced what others seem to be reporting - FS only ever gave me help and good advice. I hope that those of you who were part of it look back on those times with pride.

OTD/.

[peuce]

I picked up this gem from Dick Smith in another thread ... I didn't want to hijack the important discussion going on there and I thought this might be the appropriate repository:
:

"...You may have noticed the considerable support I have been given in relation to stopping Airservices from removing an independent VHF Flightwatch system without proper consultation and a proper safety study.

You will also be interested in knowing that for over 15 years I have been working on having the US style UNICOM to improve safety at non-tower airports ....."

Sounds suspiciously like trying to fix up the holes left by his removal of Flight Service. The irony ...

[Pinky the pilot]

Interesting question Griffo, and thank you for asking it!:ok:

I posted the below in another thread:
As I have posted before in various threads over the last few years, way back in 1982 when I started my what was known then as an 'Unrestricted PPL' it was considered poor airmanship to do a navex 'no sar no details.'

Full reporting for VFR was available from Flight Service and they were most efficient, calling you if you were remiss in making position reports outside the plus-or-minus two minute allowance!

I would still like to know why this system was abolished! I have not yet nor do I ever expect to hear, an even halfway reasonable excuse as to why this service was discontinued!

All I have ever heard is the saying ''affordable safety'' which to me is trite, meaningless and in light of what has transpired over the years since,
Bloody offensive!


And in due course a reply was posted by none other than Dick Smith himself.
It is a bit too long to be reproduced here but I think I would be justified in saying that so far no-one has agreed with his reasoning. I would post a link to his reply if I knew how!! Possibly Griffo may be able to assist.

[Howard Hughes]

Hey Griffo,

It appears to me that they're bringing back Flight Service by stealth.


CAGRO Dubbo
CAGRO Wagga
CAGRO Harvey Bay
CAGRO Karatha
CAGRO Port Macquarie
CAGRO Avalon
CAGRO Broome
CAGRO Ayres Rock
CAGRO Williamtown ... ooppss, scratch that one!

Anyone tried giving a position report, or getting the Metar for your next destination?;)

[CitationJet]

Having gained a PPL in 1991 and a UPPL in Jan 1992 I only ever went into a briefing office once - that for a UPPL nav to see what the BO was all about.

Frankly, in the subsequent 17 years, including the last 12 flying IFR I don't know what all the fuss is about.

It is far more convenient to be able to download all NOTAMS and weather from the internet 24 hours a day, read it at leisure, print out what you want/need, file the plan online and go, rather than having to visit a BO with a half finished plan and then make changes on the run based on whatever information the briefer may have for you.

Likewise the ability to cross check with the Bureau of Met site for additional information is brilliant.

With due respect to the guys who provide telephone briefing services now - on the odd occassion when I have used that service away from base (before wireless broadband!) I never found the information as comprehensive as reading through the NOTAMS/weather myself.

[flying-spike]

Why, because you weren't around to see the way things were done before. I was flying before I finished in FS and I can tell you that the majority that were around when FS were dotted over the countryside appreciated them/us being there. I was once part of setting up a relay from a doctor on the ground at Doomadgee and the crew of an Airbus overflying with a pax in labor. Sector wouldn't know about the clinic runs would they. A lot of local knowledge was lost when FS was closed

[Binoculars]

Spike, everything you say is true, but the context has changed over the years. Unless you've been asleep for 25 years, you will surely acknowledge that the only line to be looked at these days is the bottom line. Since staff were renamed Human Resources and took over the whole system, since nobody in charge has been game to make a decision about anything without thinking of the possibility of litigation, thereby making lawyers the ultimate arbiters on just about everything (think about it) the world we knew has gone.

The 80's were called the decade of greed, it's no real coincidence that "Affordable safety" became the test. Things that were previously thought to have been sacrosanct from the bean counters because they just had to be there, became pawns in a game of who could pay the biggest "dividend" into its major shareholder who was, oddly enough, the Federal Government! Oh yes, the States saw the writing on the wall and latched on to this philosophy in a big way, but that was a bit later.

Yep, the good old days of Sir Donald Anderson where DCA was the jewel in the crown of the public service were gone. As an ex FSO, I remember sitting with an ex-friend over a bar in Brisbane in the 70's at an advanced state of the evening discussing the inevitable day when "the balloon will go up, somebody new in power will look around and ask, who are these FS people and why are we spending millions on them?"

He joined ATC shortly afterwards and I was in the course behind him. FS was a wonderful luxury. In my four years in SY FS I didn't realise how little I knew of the bigger picture until I did time at a small outstation, met pilots face to face, took their flight plans while monitoring VHF and HF frequencies, then attempted to send those plans over the telex, offered overnighting pilots and families a meal a beer and a bed at our house and all the other little things outstation FSO's did. It was a great time, but it was destined to blow up.

It would seem I am raving, but all I'm saying is that I agree with what a wonderful service FS was, but how unrealistic it is to expect to resurface on anything like its original scale.

To all my old FS brethren, unlike some who joined ATC I have always remained complimentary to the job they (we) did and wish those times were still possible. Unfortunately, they ain't.

We still have our memories though, don't we?

[CitationJet]

OK Flying-Spike, lets put it another way. What did the FS/briefing office network provide that a pilot can't obtain independently and probably more efficiently now?

alternatively

What service do I need that I am not getting as a consequence of am the abolition of FS/briefing offices?

[the wizard of auz]

OK Flying-Spike, lets put it another way. What did the FS/briefing office network provide that a pilot can't obtain independently and probably more efficiently now?
A barby on Friday nights and locals in the pub?.

[flying-spike]

Answering calls from the pilot's wife/girlfriend as to when they are due home (fraught with peril)
Arranging logistics for an outback search (VH-CJB)
Giving the itinerant pilot a lift into town at the end of a shift
Ringing around town to chase a pilot who forgot to cancel SAR
Calling the refueller when he won't/can't answer the radio
Givng the pilot a lift back out to the airport the next dayIt's called the personal touch. But then again, maybe when you are flogging around in a citation you don't need that do you.......Dick?

[mostlytossas]

C-Jet, I don't think Bino is actually disagreeing with you. He acknowledges he knew it would all come to an end and will never return, at least not anything like it was. Technology killed it really which was also very convienient for the Govt on a cost saving drive. In the 70's home computers,faxes,digital voice synthasisers, mobile phones let alone with internet,didn't exist.
The only way you could get a forecast, lodge a plan etc was to visit FS briefing or phone them if in the bush. Reverse trunk call some airwork direct or some such code you'd say to get the dept to pick up the cost on memory. Phew it is getting hard to remember.
Woops wasn't Bino............sorry

[Deputy]

Citation Jet, how about decoding the notams!
Back in the day you would let the Briefing Officer know where you were planning to go and they would sift through all the info for you. Priceless for a VFR student learning the ropes and those of us who were less frequent flyers.

[Stationair8]

You couldn't the beat the "local" knowledge of a good FSO, especially when you needed help due to bad weather or unsure of your position.

Get into the real outback away from the comforts of the east coast of Oz and you find the Flight Service guys made that you were looked after and always greatful for that watchful eye.

When the new "world" was forced upon us in 1991, we didn't have the luxury of internet, no automatic weather stations, in some cases no fax machine, real time weather information, GPS and things like when the local Flight Service closed who did the hourly weather observations and passed that onto the met guys. I can name a number of aerodromes that the only time they got an observation was first thing in the morning, so the TAF's were always incorrect.

Always nice to be given an updated TAF or TTF especially days of piston engine RPT with the old max payload and minimum legal fuel.

[peuce]

As flying-spike alluded to ... I think the personal touch was important.

How many young pilots flying today have ever seen an Air Traffic Controller.

In days of yore ... meeting and talking to the local FSO or ATC at a Briefing Office or FSU engendered a bit of comraderie into the Industry. There was an essence of "we are all in this together". Even the odd brawl about rejected flight plans injected some humanity into a very technical job.... and provided a reason to "sort it out" at the tinny club on friday night.

As I've said in these boards before, the greatest loss from those times is pilot discipline. The fact that the FSO (who you might have even met) was hovering over his push to talk switch as the all important 2 minutes past ETA approached, certainly added some urgency to your flight planning, navigation and airmanship skills.

Binos is correct, of course, it will never be resurrected ... but, for many, it doesn't hurt to look back at the good (and not so good) times.:ok:

[bushy]

The flight service system was a a great help when there were no telephones in the outback, and the only communication was HF radio to flight service, or a telegram, (remember them) transmitted by HF radio through the RFDS base. So flight plans and forecasts were sometimes transmitted on HF radio. (Do you blokes know what HF radio is??)
But full reporting on all flights was a bit excessive.
And when the fax machines and computers and outback telephones came along there was less need for flight service, and someone realised that full reporting on all flights was no longer necessary. Sometimes it just did not work. It was nice to be "nannied" but no-one would pay for it.
So flight service was discontinued. Yes it was a very useful service, and we all worked as part of a big team. On many occasions I was gratful for the service they provided, and I relayed many messages for them. It's gone now and will not come back.
We cannot waste the safety money.