EK Green PR/SFO Threads Merged

[Gulf News]

Gulfnews: Emirates plans longest 'green flight' from Dubai to San Fransisco (http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10266200.html)

Shouldn't we be concentrating our efforts closer to home. All the negotiation with external ATC and agencies across the world for one flight when every EK flight arriving into DXB has to enter the UAE FIR at FL270 or below.

Depending on the runway in use in DXB this restriction puts each aircraft between 5000 and 10000 ft below optimum profile.This alone burns between 500 & 2000kg of additional fuel with the associated carbon and noise emissions. All this is before the arbitrary speed restricted high drag +- 150 track miles of vectors.

Poor airspace management, regional willy waving and antiquated procedures in UAE need to be addressed before we embark on telling the world how clever and environmentally friendly EK is.

Emirates has the clout to do it but does not seem to have the faintest idea of where to start. Hell, we even have a VP environmental affairs who's only contribution to date has been to introduce a paper recycling effort and produce a glossy brochure attacking other airlines and putting out a PR smokescreen to cover EK inefficiencies.

To the ATC guys don't take this the wrong way most of us know that you are doing the best you can with what you have. You know the problems and so do we pilots yet it is impossible to get the people who could actually do something about this to get of their arses and act. It is far easier to use the already well honed PR machine to do the work.

As with all things EK and UAE it only has to look good who cares if it works?

[fourgolds]

This all while they fly around in thier corporate 747,s.

[Jetjock330]

Dubai: (ttp://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10266200.html) Emirates, which has one of the world's youngest fleets, will try a new fuel-saving programme as it conducts the longest green journey on December 15 with its Dubai-San Francisco flight.
Emirates said it worked closely with government agencies in Dubai, Russia, Iceland, Canada, the United States and other countries to plot what it called the 'Environment Flight'.
The flight has been described as "the most environmentally-sophisticated route and trip possible to help save an estimated 2,000 gallons of fuel and 30,000 pounds of carbon emissions on the 16-hour non-stop service."
The airline will use the new Boeing 777-200LR to service the San Francisco-Dubai route as part of the airline's multi-billion dollar investment in economic and environmental efficiencies.

http://gulfnews.advertserve.com/servlet/view/banner/image/zone?zid=36&pid=0&position=1 (http://gulfnews.advertserve.com/servlet/click/zone?zid=36&pid=0&lookup=true&position=1)

The programme will represent the world's first cross-polar green flight, Emirates said in a statement.
"After months of planning, Emirates' environment flight is a best-practice trial of how airlines, governments, manufacturers, technology providers and airports can work together to be as eco-efficient as possible," said Shaikh Ahmad Bin Saeed Al Maktoum, President of Dubai Civil Aviation Authority and Chairman and CEO of Emirates Group.
The inaugural green flight will demonstrate multiple fuel and emission-saving measures.
The new 777-200LR will be specially washed before the flight to minimise drag, and it will use electrical power on the ground in Dubai rather than its auxiliary power unit.
Dubai Air Traffic Control will give the plane priority clearance for both taxiing and departure.
A pre-planned priority departure route out of Dubai will provide an unimpeded climb through to cruise altitude, allowing the plane to reach optimum cruise altitude as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Global cooperation
Recent negotiations with the Russian government will allow for a preferred route over Russian and Canadian airspace for the most efficient path, taking into account prevailing winds and the aircraft's weight.
Real time updates of current weather and wind conditions will allow the flight crew to modify their flight path enroute.
The aircraft will use minimal thrust on landing and a single-engine taxi to its gate.
All onboard glass, newspapers, aluminium and paper will be collected for recycling.
Shaikh Ahmad said the inaugural San Francisco flight would be a dual milestone and would also demonstrate Emirates' competency in environmental efficiency.
"We have made a multi-billion-dollar investment in new state-of-the-art eco-efficient aircraft, and the flight will help us to further improve our environmental performance," Shaikh Ahmad said.

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All airlines try the shortest route and fuel burn, but for the obvious reason, COST! EK is no different! But then again, we don't get priority to taxi and take-off!!! And you can only fly thru Iran as fast as the slow A340 ahead!
Ground power, now theres a thing! Its been around for a long time and still nobody uses it here in the Middle-east, except to SFO!

It seems like EK are trying to camouflage a 16 hour flight under a green umbrella!:E

[Jetjock330]

I can see the next airline will shut one engine down at top of descent!

How about shutting both down and using minimal APU power for the approach!:E Now that's saving green house gases!!!


Everything in this article is no different to any other airline's day to day operation for that matter. It's amazing how someone can put a spin on a normal airline operation!

[sbh684b]

Pity they never mention the "Flight Dispatchers" that actually calculate and optimize the best routings and saves the company millions every year.

[Mephistopheles]

What happened to EK infamous PR dept? I guess they ran out of ideas & had to copy a PR stunt from Qantas.

[Bypass ratio]

I don't know why they are touting it as the longest journey as Dubai-Los Angeles is further??

Must be all the greenies living in SFO.

[BlueSkye]

I have said this before and I will say it again.


...antiquated procedures in UAE..


Come now Gulf News, you all arrive at the same time at the same spot and then stand flabbergasted when you have to hold for twenty minutes or be vectored for "150 miles". And it's not as if you get surprised by it. It happens every night at twelve and every morning at five. So why not ask your airline to amend the schedules so as to avoid this. Space them out over a three hour period instead of an hour and a half. If "hub-and-spoke" is the response then you must suffer the consequences.

Same goes for the departures. Ask your management to allow a slot system to be introduced at DXB. Think about it, less taxi time, less waiting at the holding point, optimum cruising levels after departure. But mention the "F" or "S" word to anybody at EK management and you are in a world of $hit.

As I have said before on this forum, EK can only blame themselves for their misery. EK must get rid of their own antiquated procedures before it starts pointing fingers at other agencies' shortcomings.

Please don't take this as a personal attack but rather an attack on the system, which unfortunately is being perpetuated by Emirates Airlines itself.

Structured flow management won't solve everything but it's a step in the right direction.

P.S.
"F" = Flow control and "S" = Slots

[GMDS]

Don't we just love the "preferential" treatment of some people that seem to be more equal on Dubais roads or courts already?
Now they are creating this on the tarmac and in the air.
This might sound a little overreactive, but if they start to favour the SFO, then the LAX, then the direct BNE and so on, it leaves the poor MCT, BAH, DOH buggers in the air/ground penalty box that much little longer. They subsequently will have to add some juice to cover for that and, bingo, the savings go out the other window. This perfectly reflects ME planning we encounter on a daily base. No progress, just pretentious talk.

I concurr with some posters that only a comprehensive flow management, coordinated with the GCC States and Iran will serve the saving purpose.

[Thylakoid]

Green flight? What? Are they going to paint the airplanes in green now?:}

[BusyB]

Having landed in DXB on 30L a number of times in the past few weeks and had to turn left off the rwy and pass/cross 2 active rwys to get to the E's to park I have grave doubts about DXB's "green" planning!!:ugh:

[Gulf News]

My point entirely. My post was aimed at EK higher ups who are not doing what they should be to improve things in our home airspace. Changes appear to be too hard to accomplish so instead we get this "green airline" drivel from the company PR department. In a nutshell if as much effort was put into adressing problems as painting over them it could make a real difference.

We all know it is going to be a goat fu*k arriving and departing at the times you mentioned so as a result anyone who has been around more than a day carries additional fuel which increases enroute fuel burn and blows the environmentally friendly concept further out of the water.

The ATC proceedures thing has been done to death on this forum so I won't reignite the debate other than to say that if we are honest with ourselves we can all see areas where things could be vastly improved.

[NO LAND 3]

In seven years and I don't know how many midnight and 5 am arrivals I have never had to hold more than 25 minutes. Eighty percent of the time I have no holding and minimal vectors, in fact track shortening is common.
Although I occasionally carry extra fuel into Dubai I have never even come close to needing it.
Who are you guys?

[GMDS]

There was recently 1 guy who gave his misadventure on a ASR (ldg bel min res) and I once came close.
There is basically no problem with that, the early warning system (ops ctl) however, when it starts to pile up or when some unforseen fog sets in is not entirely up to speed.

The airspace and tarmac management needs to be revamped. Everything is based on that and not on shiny PR gags.

[ferris]

Poor airspace management, regional willy waving and antiquated procedures in UAE need to be addressed before we embark on telling the world how clever and environmentally friendly EK is. Cart before horse alert.

Absolutely, without doubt, nothing-even-comes-close, hands down THE SINGLE BIGGEST THING that could affect "the green footprint" of EK is in EK's hands. schedule for minimal delays I dont know how many times it has to be said before someone gets the message, but ANYTHING you do after that is just dealing with symptoms.

Scheduling, say, 45 arrivals an hour for 4 hours a day at an airport with capacity for 30 arrivals an hour, is just Guaranteeing (capital G) that during those 4 hours, delay management tools will be employed. Now, you can bitch and moan about the delay management tools, but as the people who have the power to schedule away most delays is EK, it sounds pretty stupid. Just whisper in the scheduler's ear that no more than 30 arrivals per hour may be scheduled and- poof, like magic!- 90% of delays will vanish. Imagine what the PR machine could make of that!!

You sound like homeowners lighting fires at your own houses then leaning on the fence and bitching about what bad jobs the firemen are doing.*







*It has often been mentioned on these boards that the chief fireman is the great dane who makes the firemen use water pistols made in Copenhagen in 1976 instead of firehoses; but he knows best- just ask him. But lets not go there....

[Schibulsky]

"When it starts to pile up or when there is unforseen fog" its too late for the "early warning system"!!! What do you want?? Inflight refueling???? :ugh:

[BlueSkye]

It comes straight from the Sheik's mouth that EK are not allowed to be delayed on the ground (where fuel burn is least or non-existent). He is also the one blocking inbound ATM and departures slots from DXB. Remember, he sits on the board of EK, DXB CAA and GCAA.

If I may give some free advice to Etihad. Don't go down that road. The company is still young and maybe sanity will prevail. Look at EK's schedule and avoid their times. I can practically guarantee you will get optimum cruising levels to Europe. Same goes for inbounds, profile descent with a straight in approach or a short downwind. Well, most of the time.

[ferris]

Here's an idea. How about someone grasp the nettle and actually be an innovator: I have long been told that airlines put the people on the plane, fly to the destination, then hold and accept a previously known delay (and associated cost) because "that's what the punter wants". I can fully understand the desire to 'get underway'. But how about someone actually tries an innovation- INFORM the punters? Personally, if I KNEW that I could take the delay on the ground pre-departure, either in the lounge or on the aircraft, and then have no holding at arrival, I would be happy. In fact, premium pax may even prefer to sit in the lounge and do some work/drink/get "massaged" etc. and would appreciate the info and time management options such a system may offer?

Maybe if someone, somewhere, started treating people like they had half a brain, they may start acting like it. Maybe we could move on from the mentality that engenders pax to leap from their seats as the aircraft taxis in so that they can rush off as quickly as possible and stand at the baggage carousel. To wait, yet again.

It's not like the technology isnt available. Maybe $150 oil for a bit longer might have forced such innovation? Maybe we ARE just too stupid to help ourselves?

[MrMachfivepointfive]

GMDS,

EK has not had a single landing with fuel below CMR since the start of Fuelmon recording - and that's at least eight years. I just won't make any statements about the period before that, because I couldn't back it up with raw data. Don't start broadcasting such min fuel B/S. Commitment to stay is best industry practice and has nothing to do with CMR.

[GMDS]

@ GMDS
"When it starts to pile up or when there is unforseen fog" its too late for the "early warning system"!!! What do you want?? Inflight refueling????


No. But if contrary to the TAF fog suddenly sets in (happened in NOV), then a acars to all inbound would be nice (was somewhat standard practice at my former airline, so it's possible). Second, if one or more surrounding alternates runs out of space, again such info is valuable if received early. All this is called ACTIVE Flight Watch.



EK has not had a single landing with fuel below CMR since the start of Fuelmon recording

and now to our beloved Mr. Mach 0.5: If you managed to creep out of your pityfull armchair and would actually read what's up at EK, then you wouldn't have missed the latest Weekly. But I guess either you're so far away from EK that you should shut up, or you're so obsessed to creep into dark holes that you display the same ignorance to daily matters as the holes.:yuk:

[BlueSkye]

I don't know about other ASPs around the world, but I've never worked at an ATC unit that has access to ACARS. Surely this is an airline function, unless this it what you mean GMDS. But trust me, I would give up alcohol and bacon (for an afternoon) to have access to this.

If CPDLC were made available to all and sundry then the picture might change.

[GMDS]

BlueSky

I am talking about EK FltOps flight watch. They have ACARS and constant ATIS and windows to look outside. After having planned the flight, checked TAF, Notam etc and made our fuel choice, inflight we do follow up on WX, but not every hour on the hour (would cost the company too much on ACARS.....). When the forecast of home base inexpectedly changes, FltOps sees it first and could send out an alert to all incoming. This enables early fuel checks and considerations which would then avoid hectic talk on CompFreq when everyone piles up at Desdi/Bubin. Same goes with SHJ,RAK,AAL,FJR,MCT availability. These airports fill up quick and then pose some problems with replanning, if you have to divert, "req clr to ..., not accepted due to full tarmac." If this is known early, we can replan, or FltOps can even start to redistribute. FltOps do have landlines and hopefully the numbers of mentioned airports!

If we play the game and come home with min fuel, some even below GCAA min req, then at least we need good flight watch and assistance. Otherwise the reseve du patron will come back quite rapidly. I don't think too many of us like to call PAN and explain to the upper m........, why we landed below min res.

That's what I was talking about, not rocket science.

[Marooned]

Why not PAN? That's what it is there for and no one in management will have a leg to stand on if you use it.

If an EAT is available and wx above limits commit, if not divert. If we divert enough we'll get more fuel. If committed and it is likely that you will land below final reserve due extended holding/vectors: PAN. If you know that you will: Mayday. ICAO recognise this distinction so should the management.

M55.5: I know of at least a couple of incidents of landing below final reserve within the past few years. One at least was an issue because ATC had no knowledge of the low fuel state. If said a/c went around they would have been straight into a Mayday. Prior to this the low quantity EICAS would have indicated less than 4.2 remaining. The 4.2 is an FAA certification limit but it is still an advisory message to take seriously requiring reconfiguring (F20) for landing and implications if you have to G/A (pitch attitude/acceleration) which is the last thing you'll want to do. The PAN allows ATC to give you priority and a chance to give adequate separation to minimise the chance of a G/A.

I am far from pro management but as far as flight planning seem to be concerned, if the weather looks at all dodgy then the OPF always seems to have additional or a remark to consider extra fuel so use it. I agree with GMDS however and have little faith in our flight watch system.

At the end of the day if you are uncomfortable with minimum fuel, take some more even if it does mean off-loading payload. Our choice our decision. :)

[fourgolds]

Mr MachPointFive , you are wrong. They have indeed had a landing ( if not landings) below Final Reserve.

On this green issue , I see the Warren Buffets of this world are investing very heavily in trains.
If the Greenies and the very liberal governmets really get into this , then I see a very ominous future for the airline industry. Particularly the short haul , continental operators. I think we will see regulators and goverments be in a position to kill huge parts of the industry.

[Craic Ore]

Mach .55

I beg to differ. The recent TSRA in DXB was not good. Took over an ER with less than CMR in the tanks. There was another signed out by the same Eng with less than CMR. Why not warn us via company mail to carry fuel when req'd? You betcha - cost.

This current thinking and fuel policy is going to cause some dire situations IMHO.

CO

[Flying Spag Monster]

Back to the Green issue... its pointless discussing ways an airline can save the planet, the two are just not compatible. Any "Born again Greenie" attitude by an airline has less to do with actually saving the planet and all to do with the European Emissions Trading Scheme; which will see airlines included from 2012. Under the scheme airlines operating in EU airspace will set a maximum emissions limit or pay hefty fees (fines) above this. But they can gain credits to offset the emissions and this can be achieved by..... being Green! Recycling products used inflight, promoting eco friendly work behaviour etc or participating in the world's longest "Green Flight" Now I applaud any effort in the Green direction but to claim it is done out of real environmental concern is just plain green wash. If there was not a business case for it, it would never happen. Call me a sceptic, but it was only about a year ago that the top boss of a well known UAE carrier went on public record stateing that Global Warming was a myth....

[Schibulsky]

There is actually no real flight watch going on at EK. You have probably never set a foot into the NCC. There are 4! dispatchers at every shift busy calculating 40+ flights each and one DDM. They never get a warning from ATC when there is any pile up, normally they just see on the radar that DESDI or BUBIN getting busy. While you are happily flying towards a foggy DXB the dispatchers are busy calling all altn about the available parking spaces and gathering information about FDP and other operational issues.
Sorry to tell you but you are then just one of the guys flying circles without any info. The considerations are made by dispatch and Opsctrl and you should know about your fuel state at any time of your flight! State your max holding time, listen to the Company freq and when you are at min diversion fuel go to the alternate assigned by flight dispatch. Believe me, the NCC is then REALLY busy, the situation is changing all the time and there is NO TIME to keep 50 flights up to date about it!
You were probably working for a US Airline with about 10 times the number of dispatchers and the legal requirements for flight watch. Welcome to Emirates...where the number of dispatchers stay the same while an additional aircraft gets delivered every month!!
And I am not saying I like the situation...just telling you the facts :sad:

And now they have additional work with that BS of a "green flight"...just to get back to the topic:)

[GMDS]

Schibulsky

Thanks for the heads up. Just as I fancied. No, I have never seen your place, simply thinking about getting into our COC gives me the creeps, so there's no motivation left to get anywhere close to some other EK facility.
Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming you guys, I could figure out myself how thin support must be, once scratching the surface. Basically I was hoping that one of the responsable m...... would read this and maybe, maybe get the message:
You want a Green Label? Get operations right, and you will actually save a few kilos. The pretentious add in the papers is only smokes and mirrors and makes us the laughing stock in the real professional world.

[Berniman]

And that is actually the problem... don't get me wrong as well. But it looks like that some pilots with EK are really not interested in a good working relationship with Flight Dispatch or OPS Control. I have seen many pilots in the office trying to understand what we are doing.... asking questions...and I met pilots in recurrent trainings etc doing the same...trying to improve things...

And there are the others... which are always complain... doesnt matter if in ASRs or over the phone or in internet forums... but they are never coming up to the office and talk to us in person... and if we are doing a flight watch especially during fog situation these guys are the first ones who never respond on ACARS... not monitor the frequency... and are not able to work together with company...

Think about it... and now we will see how the "GREEN" flight went? :)

Cheers

[Schibulsky]

Berniman is talking about a core problem at EK. There are no efforts to establish a culture of cooperation btw pilots and other departments. They just throw **** at all of us and expect that things will improve...but the pressure they create causes everybody just to cover their ass and stay out of trouble.
So everybody plays the blaming game instead of trying to understand each other. It's the old "divide and rule" principle that used to work since the dark ages!
My former companies sent the pilots during upgrade to the OCC to learn about the "other side". Works well and the resulting mutual understanding makes live easier for all of us.
It also makes a lot of flights "GREEN":ok:
But with the global recession approaching...dont expect things to improve:eek:

Lets just respect each other as the professionals we are (or trying to be :hmm:)

Cheers

[Fred Garvin M.P.]

Just to add onto this, my former company sent pilots, cabin crew, AND dispatchers to the same CRM training, both initial and recurrent. As well as sending initial captains to network control on an operational visit. Our dispatchers never got updates from ATC, but they always got updates from the pilots on the line either via ACARS or over the radio, and for the most part, where able to relay those updates as appropriate, not always, but sometimes. Communicating is the key to having a decent relationship between crew and dispatchers.