You must be mad !

[brownbaron]

I know alot has been said on this matter but you are being stupid if you are willing to risk it all and become a "pilot"
Have a little read on this tread and come to your senses.....please.
Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.(people trying to sell themselves)
There are people coming out of the woodwork trying to get jobs with alot of hours and experience. Do you still want to blow your money on a ATPL..............
Be very aware that the people on these sites saying "there are jobs" and its a "good idea" are without doubt the people you are going to hand your money to, trying to keep themselves in work. Who can blame them.
The fact that there are so many wannabees has created a market where you will work for free and be treated like sh.. all the time.
My present employer is treaterning me. "There are loads of pilots out there just waiting for your job" so I have to live on s..t wages in a dump of a west African country for what.....
Well you can have my job im sick of it. I am off after 20 years flying to do a business degree and make decent money .:}
I wish I had not wasted nearly half my life thinking flying would be profitable.
Good luck

[VNA Lotus]

yuccccccI agree with you...

Sometimes, I I'd like to do my business seriously, make money and fly with my own plane the week end,( I am taking a course in economic by distance in case). I met a lot of guys who are doing this at the moment.
Best business ? a flight school, then a trto lol
My advice is to have a deadline. I mean, if you start a 20 y/o and don't find a job at 30 y/o, then give up and start a business.
Time flies, a plane is a plane (cessna 152 to boeing, we share the same sky after all, don't we ?), with the time, family (wife and children) becomes more important, that's THE life, live just for work and you'll miss a lot of great things too.
Pilot is a great job of course, but do studies (others studies I mean) at the same time, get another plan in the case (2009 will be very hard...be aware), and have a deadline is what I did.
The positive thing is with a deadline you'll be motivated to find a job quickly anywhere because you focus on an objective.
And plus, even you are a pilot you never are happy lol
You fly on cessna 152? You want Turboprop.
You fly on turboprop, you leave your job for a 737/320...
You are on 320/737, you want a 777/A340...
You are on 777/340, you want the A380...so...
That's normal, humans being need somethings news to live.

[Adios]

Brownbaron,

I'm sorry your employer has such a ****e attitude towards the people that help earn the revenue that pays his wages, but I think your post is overly pessimistic. If even 30% of the projected fleet growth for the next 20 years happens it will create demand for a lot of new pilots. The fact that the job market is shrinking right now does not negate this fact. Good timing and sound financial planning (read that as "avoid or minimize training debt and save a good chunk of what you eventually earn") are the keys to success, not abandoning the dream. It is a cyclical industry and very sad that this is news to so many already in it.

There are plenty of other posts with viewpoints about how and when to jump in, so I won't make another one here, but with 3% retiring every year, 60% of existing pilots need to be replaced over the next 20 years even if there is no fleet expansion. Today is a very dark day, but it won't always be so.

[Bradda G]

I would advise all wannabes to get your safety net established before you go about your aviation endeavors. Be wise! Listen and observe more than you speak. Analyze your environment, global economy and make informed and intelligent moves. Your career success is like a chess game. Pick your moves carefully and always be a few steps ahead of the game.

Cheers:ok:

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

So, the world outside of flying is all sweetness and light eh Brownbaron? Well it's been 4-5 years since I was last using my business degree to do the whole 9-5 thing. Back then it wasn't that great; in fact sitting in an office was pretty crap to be honest. At least flying is often (not always) fun and exciting. Can't say that about the office job.

Don't let him put you off. Now is a good time to be planning and saving for your flight training and give it a year and it might even be a sensible time to train.

[daria-ox]

As others say.. if you have a back up career then you should be just fine and flying doesn't mean only flying for airlines, you could do several other things.. eg. instructing, it's not the best job you could ever get, but its flying.

[Bradda G]

So, the world outside of flying is all sweetness and light eh Brownbaron? Well it's been 4-5 years since I was last using my business degree to do the whole 9-5 thing. Back then it wasn't that great; in fact sitting in an office was pretty crap to be honest. At least flying is often (not always) fun and exciting. Can't say that about the office job.

It all depends on what type of gig you do. Contrary to popular belief, a business degree doesn't do much for yah (unless you have related field experience to go with it...). Plus, with the current economic downturn, there is a huge supply of business savvy individuals out there looking for work. Just look at the unemployment lines if you don't believe me...

IMHO, if you want a stable career, make sure you have a skill and make your it is something that not everyone can do (Make sure you are GOOD at it too!!!!). The people who will survive in these down times are those who are always in demand.

[EpsilonVaz]

I did my training, not in any debt, I have another job I can do while I wait for employment. What's the problem?

[Bradda G]

I did my training, not in any debt, I have another job I can do while I wait for employment. What's the problem?

Good for you! However, some of us would have to get into serious debt to get a ticket (avg cost: US $60K).

Some of us don't have that kind of financial backing to be debt free at the end of a CPL/CFI/ATPL checkride. Not trying to be a pessimist here. More like realist...

[irishone]

Lucky you not to be in debt....bank will be hunting me down soon! Just finished 3 months ago...talk about bad timing. Still even though its depressing now not having any job etc...it has to get better. Nothing else Id rather do.

[Upslope]

Good Luck.
There's one hell of a cold wind blowing and it's going to get a lot colder before it gets better!!

To Epsilonvaz. :rolleyes:Good for you, but others on here are not so lucky...... :ugh:

[irishone]

Better get the winter woolies on so...:)

[BelArgUSA]

There are two types of advice you can find in Pprune forums...
xxx
There is the negative advice... do not start now - wait until things get better.
Generally, people with experience, i.e. pilots, give that advice.
Then there is the "GO FOR IT", get your fATPL now and take a €60000 mortgage.
That type of advice originates from other "wannabees" - with zero/zilch experience.
They just love to read theirselves and self-indulge in good news and dreams.
xxx
I just retired, so frankly, I could not care less.
You want my advice...? Wait for better days. Save you money.
I have "just a little bit of experience"... my first flying lesson was in 1959...
So, dont listen to me...
:=
Happy contrails

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Airline sponsorships to return in a few years they reckon?

Not if the Western Nations are now in the final run up to economic collapse they won't. It is only a matter of 30 years or less before implosion occurs. It happened several times during the history of Egypt. It happened to the Chinese Empire. In fact human history is littered with examples of civilisations that ran out of money and so were unaable to support their infrastructure. When it happens the end comes fast.

What is happening in the Western Nations today is no different to what happened in the late stages of the Roman Empire. Rome was strong as it expanded and as long as the wealth of the conquered lands was channelled into the centre. When Hadrian fixed the boundaries of the Empire the chance to pplunder wealth from outside ceased. From then on materials that came in from outside the Empire had to be paid for with money rather than taken by force of arms. Protecting stability on the borders was done by buying favours from neighboring tribes. As a result taxes had to go up. Inflation was rampant and the currency was continually being devalued.

Gradually the Empire simply ran out of money. As the centre declined so the provincial cities became stronger. When the control of the centre eventually failed the infrastructure started to collapse. The cities then started to fade as they could no longer engage in trsde for the raw materials that they needed. The countryside then ceased to supply the food that the cities required. The rest is history.

The analogy with the modern world is clear.


Or this may just be tough times that started in America but which Britain is best placed to ride out.. ;)


WWW
Don't Have Nightmares

[Dreamshiner]

I can see many Oxford candidates being read this before bed by their rich parents and shivering under their Thomas the Tank Engine sheets.

Glass half empty or full WWW? :)

[Nearly There]

Cheers for that Nostradamus...something for the kids to look forward to;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well, sometimes its useful to stand up straight and gaze upon the broader picture!

Here's a tip for 2011 - hyperinflation. Lets see how good my Nostradamus powers are...


WWW

[bajadj]

I was an oxford student and i think the comment is largely accurate!

[scallaghan]

Hi

I decided modular because of my family, this aviation cycle in general, avoid debt as much as possible and keep my full time career outside of aviation while training. Half way through an IR, will be debt free and sometime later next year will do the MCC/JOC in my own time.

When I looked at the integrated courses like Oxford, it was just too expensive, and I first looked 4 years ago after PPL. Just couldn't justify cost, I have no doubt the courses are very good. Family came first though and I just thought the bottom line is everyone is taking the same CAA exams and everyone has to meet that standard set irrespective of being integrated or modular.

Don't want to work for Ryanair and hand over 25K either. Assuming they may ask you to pay them to for typing ratings and not bond you. I would assume not many people who did borrow large sums of money for training cannot extend the borrowing much more to pay for those type ratings with employers who ask for it. Might be interesting to see what happens in this area, I originally assumed when starting out that all the employers paid for those type ratings, later to find out that was wrong.

If I new at the beginning what I know now regarding the industry, I may have considered keeping a PPL but being realistic I love flying and after spending 10 years in another industry it was about minimizing my risk and having that career to fall back on to be my own free person.

Good luck for those looking at the moment

[nuclear weapon]

I think it is best to establish a safety net before abandoning everything and going for your dream of flying. I will also like you to take a very realistic view of the proffession before going in to it.
Do you have a family you are surpporting or will they be surpporting you during your training. Its not what it used to be and if you enter the wrong company the novelty soon wears off and it becomes a job not a passion and can quickly lead to disillusionment.

[INNflight]

Good for you, but others on here are not so lucky......

You got that wrong mate.... he went in well-prepared, others didn't!!! :D

[Upslope]

Here's something that will hopefully make people think a little.

A friend of mine who has 3000TT and multiple Citation ratings, was laid off recently. He found a job very luckily on a Lear 45. The company want a training bond of £20,000 up front, all of which, plus interest, they will pay back to him over two years. Which is fair enough and as he's not technically paying for a rating, it sits well with me.

He has an employment contract stating the bond conditions and a personal letter of guarantee from the MD and so far he has been turned down by 4 of the big money lenders on the high st. Now my point is....... if a situation like this is nearly impossible to raise funds for...... What chance is there of raising funds for newbies.

Pls save your money, take your time and keep an eye on the industry. DON'T get suckered by the propaganda rubbish spouting from the big schools.

[twentygrand]

I was born in April 1941, 3 days before the city was bombed flat and 800 people killed. Things must have looked pretty bad for my parents and their little son - they must have wondered what sort of world they had brought me into. Well, I'm still here, and I've survived over 40 years in aviation. Its a great job and worth fighting for, so don't get too downhearted - things will improve and its better than working for a living!

[VFE]

My advice for those who love to fly and think shelling out thousands will make them happy is to save it, get a well paid job elsewhere and fly for fun. Garmin have ensured that private fliers can occupy much the same territory as commercial pilots these days so cut out the middleman hassles a commercial pilot is presented with (economic versus safety) and scratch the itch that way.

"Pilot" does not mean the same as it did just ten years ago. The percieved role is much different from the reality. Those who say it's amazing and wonderful are usually new or inexeperienced or just hopelessly delusional... or maybe just easily satisified? Quite frankly, looking at it with older and slightly more experienced eyes I'd say it must be hard to find the same pleasure from staring at an EADI for 6 hours a day after 40 years. Those who I know in that position are a good testiment to that assumption.

My hopes and aspirations have altered a fair bit in the last ten years of flying - but I guess you can never properly explain this to an eager wannabe, much less have them take it on board.

Kids don't listen, that's just life.

VFE.

[smith]

FFS WWW, not only are you a great pilot and economist, you have now turned historian and sooth sayer, not to mention your natural ability in predicting the futur, is there any end to your talents?:D

[Slipstream86]

My advice for those who love to fly and think shelling out thousands will make them happy is to save it, get a well paid job elsewhere and fly for fun. Garmin have ensured that private fliers can occupy much the same territory as commercial pilots these days so cut out the middleman hassles a commercial pilot is presented with (economic versus safety) and scratch the itch that way.

"Pilot" does not mean the same as it did just ten years ago. The percieved role is much different from the reality. Those who say it's amazing and wonderful are usually new or inexeperienced or just hopelessly delusional... or maybe just easily satisified? Quite frankly, looking at it with older and slightly more experienced eyes I'd say it must be hard to find the same pleasure from staring at an EADI for 6 hours a day after 40 years. Those who I know in that position are a good testiment to that assumption.

My hopes and aspirations have altered a fair bit in the last ten years of flying - but I guess you can never properly explain this to an eager wannabe, much less have them take it on board.

Kids don't listen, that's just life.




Well as a new PPL holder, I have realized over the past few months that I just can't afford NOT to become a career pilot.

I will never, ever, be in a position to satisfy my appetite for the air privately with my salary from my current engineering job.

[VFE]

So you will borrow in a time of emense global financial uncertainty?

As the title says: You must be mad!

VFE.

[Slipstream86]

So you will borrow in a time of emense global financial uncertainty?

As the title says: You must be mad!

VFE.

No mate, that's not what I'm saying.

[nuclear weapon]

Slipstream86,
At this stage it is my educated guess that you will still have to spend upwards of twenty grand to get the full rating. My advice to you will be to sit on the money for the meantime and see how this downturn goes. Or better still you can go to America and do your hour building at a significant cost reduction from UK.
Furhter down the line you would have met several pilots along the way who will give you a realistic view of the industry if you are unwilling to believe what you are beign told on these forums.

[RSFTO]

VFE is very right. At present time a new starter will never get rich with a pilot job and there are 75% chanses will never land a job.

Only on pprune there are 1000 wannabies and is estimated in europe only 2000 not employed pilots on the market most of them with type ratings.

Get rich with something else and enjoy aviation with biplanes or seaplanes, much more fun and much much less waste of monies.

[The_Pharoah]

lol...I for the life of me never ever put the two words in the same sentence before...rich and pilot!!! :=

I always thought flying was for the joy/thrill of it.....and to pay the rent at the same time, not to make money. :rolleyes:

[RSFTO]

Before rich kids started paying for type ratings and started paying to work, we used to be well paid and rich. It was 9 years ago.

[PosClimb]

There is an article in this weeks FI that says in a few years airlines will have to start sponsorships again once the economic outlook becomes better.

How much add revenue does FI generate from the Flight Training Industry?

I wouldn't believe anything FI says... they often blindly pass on marketing propaganda from the schools as "news".

Journalistic integrity and FI do not go hand-in-hand.

[daria-ox]

As long as I will be able to fly and earn money towards normal living I'll be happy, another thing is, do you want to be a pilot for the money or because of the fact that you're in the air? I know a guy who learns to fly (in Poland) and absolutely hates it, but he does it, so he can earn good money in the future, anyways good luck to him. I don't see doing something you don't like just for the money. Take the fact that you're going to be doing it for a long, long time into account. There are millions different careers in which you could earn even better money and you might like them. You can surely find a good job as a pilot and earn good money, but at first you have to find that first job, which will let you gain experience and that will let you find a better job.

RSFTO, it's not all about the money, is it?

I also don't believe that the airlines will start sponsorships again and if they do then it won't be many airlines.

[VFE]

I think the point being made is that "love of flying" is what see's many (including myself) take to the air for less than decent money. If money is what you like then look elsewhere but more importantly - if "love of flying" is the overriding emotion then fly for fun and save yourself lots of hassle and disappointments. I only fly because I love it - not for money - this love will be abused by those seeking to make money unless you tread very carefully. Luckily, I have not allowed myself to fall into that trap due to my ambition and sights being lower... maybe that is the pitfall many fall into thus only ever becoming disappointed when they discover the harsh realities of pilot life?

VFE.

[RSFTO]

MY LOVE OF FLYING happens when I fly a biplane or a seaplane or I do aerobatics.

Anything else I do it FOR THE MONIES ONLY, and if the monies are not enough I DO NOT DO IT.

[CFM56-7B]

About being mad... I personally know people leaving much more paid jobs to become pilots at age +30 (...+35 and even +40!!!). THEY MUST BE MAD! (and I bet many of them are reading here right now)

I'm not saying that I don't like my job, but as said before, flying with the MCP is not fun... you're just in the air pushing buttons!

main reason why I started is because now that I'm 28 this is the easiest way for me to make some decent money... but if you have a 10000euro/month job and you're willing to change your life becoming a "cool professional pilot" (please read "slave of an airline"), please contact me and we'll switch job.

Than with your nice salary I'll buy a small cessna (wich I haven't been flying for almost 6 months due to my pilot job!) and I will really enjoy my passion for flying...:8

Be smart... don't be mad!

[Slipstream86]

So you will borrow in a time of emense global financial uncertainty?

As the title says: You must be mad!

VFE.


My OP was a response to your demeaning statement about how life as a professional aviator is too boring to justify the cost of a F'ATPL. I can't understand why you felt the need to falsely ridicule me as an insanely reckless borrower!

I love private flying. I agree with all on here who say that private flying should be the most rewarding flying any pilot can do. As an average earner, Im not really ever going to be in a position to enjoy private flying as much as my heart desires (all day, every day if I could).

My ambitions have shifted somewhat over the last year. I started as an aspiring airline pilot. I just want to do as much hands on flying as I can possibly do now. I like to think that im in this game for the right reasons and not Ray Bans & stripes!