Emirates A380 pilots find aircraft 'too quiet' to sleep

[Jason2000]

Bet this isn't one Airbus saw coming...

Emirates A380 pilots find aircraft 'too quiet' to sleep

Weary Emirates Airbus A380 pilots are complaining that they cannot sleep in their crew-rest area in the aft main cabin because the aircraft is too quiet.

The pilots say that the lack of engine noise in the A380's cabin compared with other long-haul airliners means they are constantly disturbed by sounds created by passengers, such as crying babies, flushing vacuum toilets and call bells. Passengers also mistake the rest area for a lavatory, and pull the door handle.

The Dubai-based carrier has asked Airbus for a solution that does not involve substantially adding weight, which rules out insulating the walls of the rest area, situated at the rear of the all-economy main deck, says Emirates senior vice-president, fleet, Capt Ed Davidson.

"We are expecting to hear back from them by the middle of the month," says Davidson, who admits that the airframer has "overdelivered" on its noise promises on the airline's Engine Alliance GP7200-powered A380s. One option could be installing lightweight generators to create ambient noise.

"We're getting a lot of complaints. It's not something we expected," says Davidson. "On our other aircraft, the engines drown out the cabin noise. [On the A380] the pilots sleep with earplugs but the cabin noise goes straight through them."

Emirates is the only A380 operator so far to have situated the crew-rest areas at the rear of the main deck. It did not opt for Airbus' standard option of locating the pilots' compartment behind the cockpit as it would have compromised the design of the airline's upper deck first-class cabin, while the alternative location of the cargo hold was rejected as it thought crew would find it "claustrophobic".

Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

[TopBunk]

It just goes to show that you should take the standard production offering. Still, I don't suppose that they'll being needing the rest facilities on the DXB-LHR route!

[Human Factor]

BA take note.:E

[scudpilot]

A friend of mine came back from Australia on one, was sitting "top deck" commented that it was like landing in a glider, almost no sound whatsoever...:ok:

[skytrax]

I was pasanger on a recent A380 flight. I had a look at the bunks as well.

It is quiet but there is also a problem with the locations of the bunks. they are next to the pasanger seats and toilets in economy. In other plane's crew rest compartiments you enter and climb steps to get to the bunks. In this one the bunks are the same level with the main deck. there is nothing in between apart from the door so you hear everything.

[Jean-Lill]

Ear plugs reduce any noise, it is unbeleiveable to hear someone say ear plugs can reduce the engine noise on other large aircraft like the 747 or 777 but cannot reduce noise created in the passenger cabin on an A380.

The noise level in the 747 crew bunk area must be far noiser than any noise in a passenger cabin on any large aircarft.

I often use ear plugs on short and long flights (as a pax) to cut out the din some of the other pax seated near me make especially with young children.

My ear plugs work very well and reduce all noise levels to a very agreeable level including cabin and engine noise. I cannot hear the flight attendands speaking to me with ear plugs in place.

Perhaps they should try out some different types of ear plugs.

[ChristiaanJ]

Jean-Lill,
Humans are funny creatures.
A bit of steady, expected, background noise will send you right to sleep.
No noise, OK, but then every door banging, or kid crying, or whatever, will wake you up (or stop you from going to sleep).

Ear plugs work only so far.
Your ears work like your eyes... they adjust to huge differences in level of intensity.
Really dead silence.... your earplugs won't stop the buzz of a mosquito.

CJ

[gmezzi]

It's quite simple: Emirates could buy and install a continuos engine noise simulator (it could be a loudspeaker mounted in the top of bunk) that continuosly reproduce the aircraft engine noise.
I think no more weight is added, low cost solution, no certification needed:ok::ok::ok:

Good rest guys!!!!

[ExSp33db1rd]

I recall the 'old' Raffles hotel in Singapore had personal air conditioners in each room, which were very noisy, like having your own Pratt & Witney next to you, kept all other noise out and one could sleep well, trouble was when it stopped ! One woke up with a start. The trick was to make sure it was programmed to run continuously - and sleep in a fur coat !

[MarkD]

or just buy an iPod with a white noise mp3 and external noise cancelling headphones?

[iwalkedaway]

Having just flown to and from Singapore/LHR on an A380 I would confirm the low noise level, almost uncanny, especially upon take-off but also noticeably low in the cruise. Rather odd actually...the aircraft seemed peculiarly characterless apart from its stunning take-off performance on full tanks - in contrast a 747-400's takeoff run always feels as if you might be going by road...

[seacue]

Probably the very first Marriott motel/hotel was a mile or so off the north end of Washington National Airport DCA. They immediately had airplane noise complaints from the guests. An acoustical consultant was called in. The solution was to make the continuously-running air conditioning vents more noisy - white noise. That solved the problem.

[Rainboe]

or just buy an iPod with a white noise mp3 and external noise cancelling headphones?
How do you sleep with that nonsense on? Do you only sleep lying on your back? Have you tried sleeping with noise cancelling headphones?

[MTOW]

Gents, don't waste your time giving this article the credit to discuss its contents as though it is serious - it's SPIN, pure and simple, from the EK spin machine.

The fact, pure and simple, is that the EK crew rest area on the A380 has been placed in about the most inappropriate position one could imagne - smack bang in the middle of the economy cabin.

It should never have been placed there, but like the very aptly nicknaned 'aft torpedo tube' crew rest area in the EK 777s (as far from the cockpit as it possibly could be while staying inside the pressure hull), commercial department overrode flight ops (not that that would have been much of a bump!!!) and quite simply allowed their perception of what crews require as an absolute minimum for rest rather than accept the standard Boeing/Airbus fitment.

Both fitments are an unmitigated disaster, but 'face' (as in not losing any) demands that they be made work and crews be made to accept them (along with the business class 'rest' for pilots in the ULH aircraft EK bought [can you believe it?!!] without a crew rest area fitted).

Spin. S. P. I. N. Spin.

[ChristiaanJ]

MTOW,
Somehow I don't believe it's all spin....

As I said, us humans are funny creatures.

A bit of steady background noise (whether music or white noise or pink noise, or just a bit of engine noise) will blank out all the other 'interference'.

Your mind drifts off to "did they really synchronize engine four properly" and next thing you're asleep.

No background noise? Every noise like a banging door is an intrusion that will stop you from going to sleep, or have you wide awake again.

CJ

[MTOW]

I don't disagree with your comments. CJ. Most people who've tried to sleep in a crew hotel during the day have learned that leaving a radio on at low volume blanks out most of the banging and crashing of the cleaning staff.

However, where the spin comes in is that if the crew rest was where it should be - where the aircraft designers put it - the noise outside wouldn't be a problem, or at least nearly as big a problem as it is in the middle of the Economy cabin.

[parabellum]

In the crew rest area behind the flight deck on the B744 a lot of the noise is aerodynamic combined with conditioned air flow noise and therefore steady.
Agree 100% with ChristiaanJ, steady noise not a problem, intermittent noise varying in type and volume is a disaster for anyone trying to sleep. Ear plugs that are so good they can keep all noise out won't allow fire and smoke alarm noises to be heard either, (pertinent to Hotels rather than aircraft!).

[Buster Hyman]

This wont be a problem at Buster Airlines! I'll have no sleeping on the job thank you very much!!!:= Paid to fly & fly you will! Crew rest area is in the Hotel, full stop!

:p:ouch::suspect:

[pool]

EK is so awfully kind:

while the alternative location of the cargo hold was rejected as it thought crew would find it "claustrophobic

Just look at a EK777 flying coffin in the rear and recite the above bulls**t.
I bet my next years bonus the Talking Horse has never set his nostrils into that torture bunk. You CAN'T sit up, you CAN't strech, you CAN't watch a movie, you CAN't eat, it's smaller than a Tokyo coffin hotel, you are confined to lie there for sometimes 7 hours, NO seat to sit or eat or relax and for human needs you have to huddle though 10 other bunk-corridor just to end up waiting in front of the only 2+1 toilets for you and 300 Y passengers. All this in a provided pyjama which would grant immediate access to any gay parade.:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yu k::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Falcon666]

Just out of curiosity where are the sleep quarters located on SQ or QF?

Dont want the aussies complaining do we!!! They have enough to contend with, with the BA merger possibility

[CorporalGlideFoot]

I guess one of the worst parts is waiting to walk up to flight deck after rest. Eg Last ULR fight. After resting etc I went to the cabin only to find the cc doing their duties and serving the pax. However it then becomes a battle to get to the front of the aircraft where you need to be. Sure you can tell the cc to remove the carts, but I am sure they do this continally for resting crew already and it does not help the crew cohesion. They then think we are pr...s and not interested in waiting. It all ends up worse than if we just went with the aircraft designers and had the bunks where they are supposed to be.:ugh:

[GMDS]

EK does flights with 1 Capt and 2 FOs with the same set up. With earplugs or ipods shielding the skipper completely from what is going on, just imagine the poor guy sleeping through an emergency in economy and bearing all the responsibility. It wouldn’t help him hearing anything anyway, because with panicking passengers and crew, the trolleys well stuck between rows, he will never make up the 100 meters to the cockpit anyway.
Nice job EK, safety first as you always pretend.

[green granite]

I see censorships alive and well, I made a perfectly valid comment about a pink noise generator which is a device that is used to assist people in sleeping, and it's been deleted. The Ipod suggestion remains why is that?.

[golfyankeesierra]

Found this seatplan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Airbus_A380_seatmap.svg) on wikipedia. Just out of interest, where would that crewrest be situated? Or somenone has a current seatplan of EK?

[Pedalz]

The Qantas crew rests on the 744 are located in the cockpit behind a curtain and at the rear of the upper deck behind a door beside the galley, easy access to food and the toilet! :ok:The QF/BA merger is another story that I definately won't be losing sleep over...

[ion_berkley]

Found this seatplan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Airbus_A380_seatmap.svg) on wikipedia. Just out of interest, where would that crewrest be situated? Or somenone has a current seatplan of EK?

SeatGuru Seat Map Emirates Airlines Airbus A380 (380) (http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Emirates_Airlines/Emirates_Airlines_Airbus_A380.php)

[babemagnet]

check this out:


Emirates - A380 - Seatplans.com (http://www.seatplans.com/airlines/Emirates/A380-2)

[Raredata]

Aearo E.A.R' "Classic" ear plugs highly recommended!:zzz:

[golfyankeesierra]

Is it the white rectangle without any pictogram in the aft part of the lower deck, below the galley/toilet block on the upper deck?

[Torquelink]

Extract from hastily amended Boeing 747-8i brochure:

". . and a further advantage, compared to our larger and uglier competitor, is the carefully modulated and optimised aerodynamic white noise designed to be just sufficient to blank out unwanted sounds and ensure a deep, refreshing sleep for passengers and resting crew alike . . . "
:ok:

[Max Angle]

Not the best plan to have the crew rest area a long way from the flightdeck really, amazing that the certification people don't insist on it being within spitting distance really.

[IFTB]

being within spitting distance really

Why? They are off duty. there is a full complement of other crew in charge....

[pool]

There are multiple incidents that were avoided becoming accidents when resting crew/supernumerary crew/able bodies (travelling crew) were able to help up front (eg. Sioux City). some airlines want their seat position as to be able to identify them. Smart move.
EK decided to go the other way, to dump them as far away from the cockpit as possible, even when it means doing this with the only Captain on board. Silly move.
I go with the remark that it dazzles me that regulators worldwide just swallow this uneccessary move.

[DominicYPGV]

LOL... They definitley all have better rest areas than NWA. I remember when I was coming back from Detroit to Japan this year i looked behind me to see a pilot sitting all dressed in uniform. I wasn't sure if he would be flying later or not but i'd glance every so often to see him awake. Anyway i dosed and when i woke up later he wasn't there anymore. Infact he wasn't there for several hours, until the next morning when i saw him sitting back down behind me. Scry stuff too, to think he had just been flying the plane he was asleep in no less than five minutes.

[DingerX]

point of information: uniformed pilots in the passenger cabin are going to be sleeping. Often they'll get seated by the Frequent Travelers in the hope that said folks realize this basic biological fact more than the people in scheduling.

At least, that's my experience on the short hauls. Gotta say, EK is pretty impressive in this one. So do they put positioning flight crew in Y class as well? Strikes me that would be something of an upgrade.

[Plank Cap]

Think I may have solved EK's problems with the ''too quiet to sleep A380''.

Having just flown LHR - DXB with EK, seated in the rear row of business, I can totally confirm there is no hint of the claimed quiet calm silence anywhere near THAT area due to the positioning of the lounge bar - quite possibly the most noisy and uncomfortable 7 hour sector for a very long time! If you are hoping for sleep on your flight, avoid the last 5 rows of EK's 380 business cabin at all costs.

With EK's gravitation toward business class crew rest, all they need to do is assign those seats to resting crew, and hey presto, instantly no more problems with low noise levels..............

[pool]

I think a lot of people inclusive airline mangers miss the point completely.

Inflight rest is a legal requirement on longhaul flights. It is illegal to fly fatigued, meaning unrested. If a very high percentage of crew report unable to get rest, where does the legislator put airline management when they can get away by simply pretending they consider the rest facility adequate? Are they above the law? Who is entitled to determine the quest by the victims? The legislator, management or the victims? Is there a body that would inquire on that, or is it entirely left to the airlines? If so, where does that put the legislator other than being a fig leaf? A crew en route is caught in the act and cannot pledge fatigued and sit back, unless they put the same strain on their colleagues. They must be able to contest a solution that is inadequate, but today they can’t!

Cockpit access is legally to be restricted to a minimum. With bunks outside of it, this means at least 8 unnecessary openings, easily detectable by bad elements, as each time a pilot passes through the whole cabin, he will be accessing the cockpit very soon. They are nicely marked by either their uniform or their ridiculous pyjamas. This basically runs against safety regulations, as the original bunk solution would avoid it entirely. Any regulator to elaborate on this? Have they even thought about this?

Paying a lot of money, the F and C-class passengers certainly don’t like to be disturbed by the coming and going of crew. In C and Y-class these some 800 meters by cockpit crew per flight are a constant annoyance for the cabin crew, as most of the time they are in the cabin with the trolleys. All this would have been avoided with the original bunk solution. What do passenger service gurus think about this?

The confining of the resting tech crew into the a.. of the aircraft also works against emergency situations. Imagine such a situation with the resting colleagues adjacent to the cockpit and the working PIC would NOT call them for assistance and ending in big trouble. He would be heavily bashed for not working according best practice and optimum use of resources, as lost over the oceans and deserts every hand comes in great when in trouble. Would anyone bash a company for providing rest facilities that hinder such assistance and might end up in a worse situation?

The AOM obliges the Captain to occupy his seat under “certain emergencies”. If he operates with two FOs, what does the regulator say? Is this article of the AOM void, just because an airline chose to put up the resting skipper in a place he will not be able to leave in “certain emergencies”? Would this captain be let off the hook if a decision of his replacing FO-PIC proves wrong and causes havoc? Can you make a FO fully accountable? Are they fully trained for that? Can you make the company accountable for a incident happening due to inadequate rest facility? Or does the Captain remain the one and only being accountable? Has anyone, any serious regulator though about this?

It strikes me that if a crew is not rested and fatigued, he is basically illegal. If a captain is not in his seat during “certain emergencies”, he is illegal. But if these crew criticize the layout of the rest facilities, making them fatigued and unable to access their required seat, they face complete disregard from the company. Where does that leave them?

[TripleBravo]

Perhaps there was a contest with Emirates management to set their A380 fleet apart from others and find the least suitable spot within pressurized area....

Too bad Airbus gave in those odd wishes (shouldn't have supported this "solution"), but on the other hand the customer is king.

[Capt Groper]

I'ld wage a few dirhams that the regulator just kept his head in the sand.

Flight Crew rest to be at the furtherest end of the A/C from the flight deck. Sounds like a Irish joke.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

This is unbelievable.

All it's going to take is something like a decompression with the designated Commander of the aircraft stuck down the back of that massive cabin on oxygen, and then perhaps unable to get through carts, rubber jungle etc, for maybe 10-15 minutes. Or even longer. Or even at all....... A serious inflight fire doesn't even bear thinking about. Then the questions will be asked. The litigation will be ruthless. EK, Airbus and "the regulator" (what ever that means in the UAE) will be seriously on the back foot.

How can those parties have pushed for and allowed such a latent safety flaw? Have they no concept of the noose they are sticking their heads through and how tight it'll feel if there is a disaster?

They will be in the courts for years. Prosecutor: "Why exactly did you either design, or approve the design of this aircraft, whereby the CAPTAIN couldn't get back to the flight-deck before it crashed?"

What century is this, exactly?

[Setright]

OH and S issues notwithstanding, positioning the crew rest in such an exposed area would make the fight crew more vunerable to anyone looking for opportunities to disable/hyjack an aircraft.

[Buster Hyman]

Ok, I'll bite...So, you've overwhelmed the crew in the rest area, how does that mean you control the aircraft when, I believe, there's another capable individual (at least) sitting in the cockpit behind a secure door?

:confused:

[Setright]

Ok I'll reply then. Taking the commander of the aircraft hostage, may or may not give a hostile person/group enough leverage to convince junior crew to open the door. There are no absolutes here Hyman, only risk assesments.

[Wiley]

A serious inflight fire doesn't even bear thinking about. Then the questions will be asked. The litigation will be ruthless. EK, Airbus and "the regulator" (what ever that means in the UAE) will be seriously on the back foot.It's called risk assessment, Ron & Edna. They honestly believe they've put a system in place where nothing will go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...

Let's not go near the "mandatory use of the highest level of automation at all times" debate.

[Setright]

To me this should be approached as a security issue. Any time a crew member has to open the cockpit door, it creates a security vulnerability, which can be exploited if planned for.

At my last airline, the crewrest was positioned behind the bullet proof cockpit door to keep cockpit door openings to an absolute minimum.

Out of site out of mind. The flight crew were never visible unless absolutely necessary.

If the media were to discover the increased risk to security with the EK crew rest configuration, I think there could be a rethink on EK's part.

Not knowing if there is an EK pilots group, these types of organisations are what bring issues like this to managemants attention.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Umm, on a probability basis, an in-flight technical emergency is far more likely than an attempt to take over the flight deck! Or have we truly let emotion take over when we think the security aspects of all this are more important than off-duty crew proximity to the flight-deck?!

On ships they don't put Captains' wardrooms in the engine-room, for some good reason...!

[Setright]

R and E, your assumptions maybe correct.

But if you are looking for a way to convince managemant to reverse a decision or change direction, security concerns will give you more bang for your buck, especially when it comes to news headlines and the paying passenger.

The following headline "Emirates Vulnerable to Attack", on international news systems would certainly get managements attention.

How would you explain that you are the only airline with this configeration, and on what basis was it selected. The media would have a field day.

[Bradda G]

Interesting problem with a simple solution. Earplugs. Or if you want to get real cute, we can design a noise cancellation system by nulling out the audio frequency's below say..16KHz. How do we accomplish this? By generating a audio signals of equal amplitude and opposite phase. :oh:

[A/THR]

intelligent idea!

[pool]

Such a system has been installed on the Saab2000. The big props had some vibrations that were uncomfortable. The sound system to counteract worked for the passengers, however it gave the standing cabin crew headaches.
So what, it's only crew.....

One more question: How do you confine the noise generation to the CRC? Why not just tear some insulation out of the 380, it's too heavy anyway.

[Bradda G]

Simple...have the system confined in the CRC. In other words mic and speaker in crew rest facility. The most difficult part of this project would be the signal processing but it's do able (and has been done in other applications...). I'll let airbus figure out the rest. Got the sytsem blocks in my head right now but that's airbus's job. Not mine:=

PS In my system set up, cabin crew members and pax would not be affected.

[ACMS]

I've been told by an "expert" that Noise cancelling headsets that create white noise can cause permanent damage to your Ears if you use them too much?

So I guess the SAAB 2000 and Q system on the Dash could also cause damage over time????

Anyone else heard this info?

[Bradda G]

I've been told by an "expert" that Noise cancelling headsets that create white noise can cause permanent damage to your Ears if you use them too much?

So I guess the SAAB 2000 and Q system on the Dash could also cause damage over time????

Aren't we 'canceling/reducing' audio levels here with NC headphones? I don't believe damage is done to the human ear If you reduce sound waves to relatively low db levels. Am I wrong?

However, if one were exposed to 'white noise' by itself (@ reasonable db levels...), then, I could see where possible damage may occur..

[archae86]

I've been told by an "expert" that Noise cancelling headsets that create white noise can cause permanent damage to your Ears if you use them too much?

Not a pilot, am a retired electrical engineer, and a serious amateur audio guy.

If you amplified the white noise NC headsets produce high enough, of course it could damage your hearing. Also true if you amplified the sound of a baby breathing high enough.

But that white noise is not the way they cancel noise, but a result of imperfections in the the implementation. The moderate amounts I've heard are likely no more harmful at equal level than cabin noise from the engines. And, as in fact lower level, less harmful.

You badly need a new expert.

[Buster Hyman]

Buster do you get it now?
Get what?

Taking the commander of the aircraft hostage, may or may not give a hostile person/group enough leverage to convince junior crew to open the door.
Perhaps their training may or may not be a factor here. Besides, get some RC equipment in the cockpit & it's a moot point really....

[Bradda G]

The introduction of MORE NOISE into the CRC in an effort to improve rest is farcical and ridiculous. White noise, simulated engine noise, equal amplitude opposite phase noise cancellation - these wonderful ideas all miss the critical point that NOISE CAUSES FATIGUE. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=noise+causes+fatigue) Click the link and read about it. What imbecile decided that MORE noise would be better?
Ok, let's try this again.

Problem
EK crew members are experiencing random noise due to location of CRC. Mistake is already made. So, we learn from it and correct it. No? What I am trying to do hear is come up with solutions.

Possible Solutions
1. Insulate room (Already ruled out...)
2. Move CRC (Not practical at this stage)
3. Earplugs, Headsets etc...(Simple and effective)
4. Noise cancelling audio system (More elaborate but effective)

Here's how it (4) would work (from an engineering point of view):

Active Noise Cancellation (ANC) - Block Diagrams, Reference Designs and Recommended Products (http://focus.ti.com/docs/solution/folders/print/364.html#primary)

With this system audio levels will be reduced (LOW db levels). You won't be HEARING anything! The idea isn't farcical or ridiculous. It's the engineering/scientific solution to the problem.

Regards,
Bradda G (Engineer/Rec. Pilot) aka the imbecile one :ok:

[groundbum]

perhaps EK could modify their order for the next 45+ A380's they have on order and ask for the crew rest to be in the usual position directly behind the cockpit? Since other airlines have it here the engineering issues would be minor, and I wouldn't have thought having a "mixed" fleet would cause any training/SOP issues etc etc......

could finally show the lose face mentality has gone.....

Of course, having crew rest at the far end of the plane does force the flightdeck to mix with the stewardesses and customers, which might be a good thing. The worst thing in customer service is to never go face to face with the people you are serving, think of call centers... totally remote..

G

[Bradda G]

The other consideration is whether or not the active equipment will have a blocking effect on the noise the pilots need to hear. (The cabin inter-phone chime and any emergency messages or signals.)Yes and No. I have a fix for that already:ok:. Don't wanna give away my ideas tho' without some compensation:= :). Airbus gotta figure it out.

As for the spatial and source capture issue, I have my own creative approaches but again I will leave it up to airbus.

Have a good one...:ok:

[ChristiaanJ]

I would have thought that at the levels we're talking about, noise as such does not really cause fatigue.
If anything, a bit of low-level, expected and familiar noise will help you to go to sleep.

When you're asleep, you're not totally unconscious.... Sudden unexpected noises, or even the sudden stopping of a familiar noise (dare I mention engine noise?) are quite capable of waking you up.

Active noise cancelling becomes relevant when the noise level is such, that it actually causes fatigue, or otherwise interferes with the work you're doing.
It seems to make little sense in a CRC.

I would far prefer the iPod idea, with an under-pillow loudspeaker so you're not bothered by the earpieces or the wire.
Put on something you like, something relaxing you enjoy. Listening to it will then drown out your perception of other noises, and should send you to sleep in no time.

Maybe I am underestimating the problem, since I rarely have trouble going to sleep? At one time, a few years ago, I did, so I just listened to one or the other of my favourite cassettes.... I never heard them to the end.

CJ

[MarkD]

if airlines can link their entertainment to their PA to override IFE audio with announcements, presumably it wouldn't be too much harder to rig the noise reduction system with a similar override.

as for senior fd crew being used as leverage by bad guys - surely the principle should be that once the cabin has been compromised the door should not open until the aircraft is on the ground on any pretext? Even if not, if the relief crew can't handle a situation of this kind adequately it calls the use of such crew into question except in situations where crew rest is in the secure area and thus the commander remains available to take charge.

[pool]

MarkD

Nice to see someone gets back to the real issues - fatigue and bunk placement vs. responisbilities and not a commercial break for ipods ....

I am not questioning the capabilities of relief pilots, even if they are two FOs. It is a question of legality. With a serious incident the indictors will look for the guy in charge. Any emergency calls for decisions and we all know that we sometimes don't get it absolutely right - from the legal law twisting, suing fraction point of view. For us pros, if we get it down in one piece without any casualties, we've done a good job. For them it's the start for making headlines, money and careers.
So now be the SIGNING commander and be stuck in the torpedo tube, your colleagues do a great job up front, but some weeks later a quartepounded, sleezy lawyer (be it from the company or else) wants to get compensation or absolution. WHO will be up at the stand?

That is my question.

If I have to report there, good enough, that's what my position and salary should be for. But then I would definitely want a say on how good or bad our rest facility is and I would definitely want a choice of beeing able to join the active crew or not. If the company denies me such possibilities, and will never stand up to me on the stand and share responsibility, then accept my criticism. And to the regulators, we know you read this, you have been informed.
No action means consent.
Such consent applies to the multiple unnecessary entries to the cockpit as well.

[groundbum]

re POOls question about what a lawyer would do if in an accident the captain could not get back to the flight deck

by using augmented crews etc, and crew rest in any position, and cruise FOs, this barrier has already been breached, ie there are lots of occaisions now that a Captain is not on the flight deck.

Where the crew rest is located merely add's a probability angle, but as I say the barrier has been passed long ago...

G

[411A]

Wasn't it EK who had problems with shower water overflowing?
Perhaps the folks need hot tubs to make 'em sleepy?

[ARINC]

The showers do not leak and never have leaked.

Time for your meds 411:)

[VAFFPAX]

There is apparently a notice on SeatGuru that the EK A380 may have differing internal configurations based on EK decisions, so it is quite possible that EK might change the layout and move CRC back to where it was originally proposed by Airbus.

S.

[5star]

You obviously missed the incident back in october on the 201. (a very hilarious one btw).
It seems that the showers are now under control but the wiring issues however are not solved....

[maxrpm]

After 15 years on T-props one cannot avoid admitting that one´s ability to hear the oboe solo in a favourite symphony is decreasing. Hearing test at med. is still acceptable, but problems in middle range frequencies show up.

Sometimes I do envie some of our colleges for their problems.

[nuclear weapon]

Earplugs wont be a bad idea. At least if they sleep off so well they can tell thier colleagues to wake them up. I am assuming the bunk beds are comfortable as well. On a recent vigin atlantic flight i was shocked to discover the crew rest area was under the main cabin near where i was seating.
There was a door that led to a stairway and could see the beds. Considering the fact that persengers will be moving around during the flight wont this be noisier than having it at the rear like the 747.

[glad rag]

"It seems that the showers are now under control but the wiring issues however are not solved...."


Well, show us all just EXACTLY what you mean by that! :=

[clicker]

Can't help but chuckle at the idea that if EK installed a "soft noise" generator that the pax would complain of the racket keeping them awake. :E

[jumpship]

My heart bleeds :)

[ChristiaanJ]

My heart bleeds
I don't get your point, really.

I would like my relief crew on a long trip to have had a proper sleep.
They're only human, after all.

Not everybody needs the same conditions to be able to relax and go to sleep, but generally a bit of "even" and "familiar" background noise helps no end.

So?

CJ

[whattimedoweland]

....and the Emirates pilots have trouble sleeping!!!!!:p

Photos: Airbus A380-861 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Emirates/Airbus-A380-861/1448286/M/)


Just a thought!!.

WTDWL.

[fourgolds]

whaittiemeadowland , thats the other side of the story. A picture tells a thousand words , (well put.) What about those folks in their houses and the engine noise

[no sponsor]

How on earth can that be the other side to this story. This solely relates to flight safety. The other is cheap housing. Neither of which applies to Dubai.

[spannerless]

Yep, I'd agree with a few post's here!

Perhaps a little more thought should have gone into the placement of the bunks and exposure to ambeint noise...

I spent many an hour dossing down for combat kips in the military on the ground and in the air and it was always better with a little ambeint noise and a little warmth.

However, sudden noises, etc would soon snap even the most tired from a deep sleep.

I'm pretty sure most sleep study scientist's that work with in the NHS etc would confirm this, surely this is all part of human factors?????:E

[fourgolds]

No Sponsor , no one is disputing flight safety. Agreed its a safety issue.
He just raised a point that there are other people who deal with noise every day. Not just the 3 times a month they fly . There are other people in the world too you know. Its not just the mighty 380 drivers who cant get sleep. ( and I am entirely behind the guys as their complaints are justified). A little perspective is always healthy.

[Hook]

You obviously missed the incident back in october on the 201. (a very hilarious one btw).
It seems that the showers are now under control but the wiring issues however are not solved..


Pardon me 5star, but you insist on constantly bringing up the aircraft's plumbing. What are you, a rep for Grohe?
The issue here is NOISE. Get it?

[whattimedoweland]

The posting of the photo was just a little tongue in cheek humour.

The people who live in those house do so of their own free will.They get their double glazing paid for together with their loft insulation and roofing tiles.Many of the properties are also let out to local workers.

JetPhotos.Net Photo » A6-EDA (CN: 011) Emirates Airbus A380-861 by jetman41 (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6438650)

I know the present BA B777's have some noise issue as they are located by the rear of either the First or Club World cabin depending on the variant.It is curtained off but some passengers do still 'sneak' through.The power of the vaccum toilet is nearly enough to pull the First Class duvet clean off!!;)

WTDWL.

[ChristiaanJ]

WTDWL,
I happen to know the area around Hatton Cross/Bedfont/Feltham under the final approach to LHR 27L, and I can confirm that they are that low!

CJ