Condor pilots

[pimoni]

Hi everyone!l
anybody knows the contract for pilots and Cpt in Condor?
Montly pay,Roster,Annual leave,destinations?Is the company owned by Air Berlin?thanks a lot!

[EAM]

Not owned by AB, the deal failed. Still 25% LH and the rest Arcandor (Karstadt/Quelle), but the company is for sale, not realy sure where it is going.
Some 767 to come for 2009.
F/O salary is according the AB contract, quite low, check it out on ppjn.com (AB of course). For DEC, I am not sure, but I guess the same, in case they find DEC who fly for 4000€ net over the atlantic.

Anyway, you have to speak german to join Condor.

[Reimers]

Annual leave 42 days
11 days OFF every month (reduced pro rata when sick or on vacation)
Destinations: check the website, it lists all the typical european charter destinations
Captains are still on the Lufthansa contract, the Lufthansa pilots will return during the next five years, no new captain contracts have been finalized yet
Most F/Os still on the LH contract, but several have joined during the last 12 months who are not on the Lufthansa seniority list. They have received a new contract which is similar to the Air Berlin contract, but new negotiations are coming up...

[EAM]

Selection for DEC and FOs are currently running. And the 767 also does a few long haul dest.......Langfliegen eben...... pssssst :cool:

[Iver]

Reimers,

Are most of the Condor FOs who are on the Lufthansa contract likely to jump over to LH before any sale? If not, will their jobs at LH be preserved (can they transfer over)?

The pilot hiring at LH has always baffled me. Why would a cadet wish to start at Condor or Cityline if an option to start off on the A320/737 awaits at LH? What does Condor offer that LH does not offer besides more trips to Palma and other sunny destinations? Why fly a CRJ at Cityline if you could start at LH instead? Any insights would be appreciated.

[EAM]

Its not realy like that, you make the selection for LH and after that they tell you where they need you, LH Pax, LH Cargo, Germanwings or Condor. After a few years you returne to LH Pax, if you want.
CityLine is a different thing.
LH Pilots at Condor will returne to LH in the next year, thats why they start hireing people from outside.

[Reimers]

Are most of the Condor FOs who are on the Lufthansa contract likely to jump over to LH before any sale? If not, will their jobs at LH be preserved (can they transfer over)?

There are no individual rights in the work contract that allows the pilots to transfer to mainline, but rather a colletive agreement between the union (VC) and Lufthansa. This states that after a certain period (six years for captains and four years for copilots) one can bid for a transfer. This has not yet been modified. There was a contract modification about what happens when Condor is taken over by a direct competitor (Air Berlin), but it has not been activated. Lufthansa will however do everything possible to take back its pilots, otherwise fearing that these special deals with the union about certain fleets will no longer be possible in the future. Who will go to another company "on behalf of Lufthansa" when the chance to return is in doubt? On the other hand Condor will not be interested in having two groups of employees one of which earns a lot more money than the other.

Why would a cadet wish to start at Condor or Cityline if an option to start off on the A320/737 awaits at LH? What does Condor offer that LH does not offer besides more trips to Palma and other sunny destinations? Why fly a CRJ at Cityline if you could start at LH instead?

Those from the Lufthansa owned flight school are most likely to join Lufthansa mainline 737/320 from the start. One advantage of Condor has been in the past that they had basings in many different cities throughout Germany, while at mainline only Frankfurt openings were available.

Cargo/Germanwings accept older ready entry pilots than mainline, but they were the way into the seniority list for experienced pilots. Also Germanwings was hiring in 2003 when the rest of the group were not, time in the hold pool was a mere weeks where to join mainline students had to wait 18-24 months after graduating from the Lufthansa Pilot School. This was quite popular around 2003 when they had signifiant growth. Students were often left in the dark as to the disadvantages of Condor contracts (retirement age 60, less pay between 60 and start of retirement payments by the government).

Cityline is not part of the KTV "KonzernTarifVertrag" (Collective Bargaining Contract) that joins the other companies together (mainline, Germanwings and LH Cargo).

[Iver]

Thanks Reimers.

[pimoni]

Thanks Reimers,looks like they are hiring pilots on the Air Berlin contract...thats what interpersonal told me...

[Parkbremse]

you get a contract referring to original Air Berlin contracts however with a note, that they're valid only as long until a new contract for newjoiners has been negotiated. The current notion however is to scratch out Air Berlin and write Condor in and to call that the new Condor Contract... with maybe some minor improvements.

[EAM]

So they wanna pay 4000€ net for a 767 Cpt doing long haul?

[Denti]

No, if you fly longhaul or widebody you start in payscale rank 4 instead of 1. Besides, thats only basepay.

But yes, the FOs from AB that start as captains on the LGW Dash 8s earn quite a lot more, kinda funny.

[Iver]

Obviously Condor serves leisure destinations whereas LH (intra-Europe) primarily serves business destinations etc,. Are schedules at Condor more tiring and difficult than typical intra-Europe LH flight schedules? Does Condor provide a good QOL for pilots or do you get a lot more night flights and very early-morning shows that are tiring? Do Condor pilots get many night stops (within Europe) or are the flights typically out-and-back (i.e., to Lanzarote and back)? What about aircraft type at Condor - is there any experience difference required to fly either the A320 or the 757-300 or is it first seat available as long as you meet minimums?

Are pilots from Condor who ultimately move over to LH happy with the type of flying (not talking long-haul) LH does? I would imagine FRA-LHR-FRA-CDG-FRA-MAD-FRA-MXP in the Airbus would be quite different from flights to the Greek or Canary Islands for some people. At the same time, anyone lucky enough to get a slot with LH would probably be happy regardless.

[EAM]

Thx Denti, already thought its gonna be like that, anyway with about 70h you will end up with about 5000€net, I think.

How many do they want to hire? Interpersonal talks about 50 DEC, thats a lot.

[Reimers]

Are schedules at Condor more tiring and difficult than typical intra-Europe LH flight schedules?

Often only two legs, averaging approx. 4 hours during winter schedule and 2:45 h in summer, the destination has mostly good weather (that's why people fly there), mostly it's not overcrowded, pax are happy to go where they are going on the first leg (often also on the return leg)


Does Condor provide a good QOL for pilots or do you get a lot more night flights and very early-morning shows that are tiring?

Except for the occasional substantial delay there are few night flights. Early morning is limited by the extensive night curfew most German airports operate under. This will vary from base to base, but even Leipzig now has a curfew for everyone except DHL


Do Condor pilots get many night stops (within Europe) or are the flights typically out-and-back (i.e., to Lanzarote and back)

We used to have the greatest Barcelona layover. Trips were MUC-PMI-MUC-BCN (arrive at 14:00) and then 24 h in BCN. Great for some sightseeing, some tappas and then the next day one could sleep in as the only Condor aircraft to serve BCN isn't coming in until 14:00. That is gone, as are most of the layovers on the canary islands. This winter there are no triangular flights Germany-1st island-2nd island-back to Germany requiring a crew change.
But for those who are at a base that lacks pilots, this means operating 6-8 days in winter and the rest is OFF. Others based where there is an excess of crews available will be commuting on behalf of the company to somewhere they are needed, but still there are many days OFF between the nightstops in Germany.


What about aircraft type at Condor - is there any experience difference required to fly either the A320 or the 757-300 or is it first seat available as long as you meet minimums?

Honestly I have no idea.


Are pilots from Condor who ultimately move over to LH happy with the type of flying (not talking long-haul) LH does? I would imagine FRA-LHR-FRA-CDG-FRA-MAD-FRA-MXP in the Airbus would be quite different from flights to the Greek or Canary Islands for some people. At the same time, anyone lucky enough to get a slot with LH would probably be happy regardless.

Being able to see several different kinds of operation is quite nice. I've seen LH A320 short-haul, which was nice, then the A340 family for long-haul, now I'm in the left seat at Condor and I liked every single flight so far. Occasionally the paper pushers (such as there have to be in a huge company as LH) will try to get on your nerves but come the next day climbing through the last cloud layer into the sunny skies toward somewhere nice - they ultimately do not stand a chance of ruining it.

[Donkey Duke]

Reimers,

Very interesting and thank you for all of your responses. I see that you have flown Airbus for LH, and I was wondering if you fly the A320 for Condor now? Also, which routes do you enjoy, and if you don't fly the 767-300ER, which flights are most popular among your peers on that plane? Do you hear of any fun layovers on certain beaches? Cheers.

[Reimers]

I see that you have flown Airbus for LH, and I was wondering if you fly the A320 for Condor now?

Yes, I do.:)


Do you hear of any fun layovers on certain beaches?

Unfortunately, few layovers remain on the A320. There are some nightstops on the canaries, those flights are the ones that get requested. Besides those, I don't really are about certain flights. The scheduling department does a nice job of assigning flights, close to all are there and back so I wouldn't think about requesting individual flights. I prefer to ask for certain days off.


How many do they want to hire? Interpersonal talks about 50 DEC, thats a lot. (EAM was asking about the number of DEC Condor seeks to employ)

Yes, it is. But they will have to replace every captain that currently flies for them within 6 years. Think about an outfit where everyone retires within that timeframe. They will have a hard time carrying out all those courses, even with direct entry captains, let alone upgrading any of the "command ready" copilots that they have hired. Maybe the downturn will give them a break, imagine them having to cater for growth!

[oncenterline]

From my experience :
flying the 757-300 is o.k., with a little lack of performance, the 767-300 is more fun, nice and roomy cockpit, easy to handle when flying manually.
Short/medium haul: work days can be very long, e.g. routes like HAM-TFS-HAM or DUS-HRG-DUS, 12-13-hour shifts. At airports with little or no night curfew you fly around the clock (especially annoying in the small hours of the morning). Night stops normally in Germany.
Long haul: there are nice trips, but as you start at the bottom of the bidding list you probably won't get there the first 2-3 years. Normally no augmented crew, so you'll be pretty worn out after the flight back, e.g. from CUN or MBO. Some trips are a pain in the a...,e.g. Seychelles. Sounds nice, but you arrive in the morning after a nightflight, and you leave again in the evening for another nightflight.
The working environment sometimes is "exotic" in every aspect (ground handling, ATC, crew hotels et al.). But if you are looking for a challenge then it's fine. And it is very nice to have a drink at the beach bar when you know that back home it's freezing cold...

[Donkey Duke]

oncenterline,

What are your favourite layovers? You said you don't like Mahe since it is a once a week flight and you fly in and fly out the same day. Are there any more like that or places you dislike for any reason? Do you ever get LAS or DXB? Cheers.

[EAM]

Yes they do, look at this www.interpersonal.de you have to register and than you can apply. I think they talking about 90 F/Os.

[Tangoce]

yes but the Info's are old, from 2007 or????

[pimoni]

so Munich and Frankfurt are the main base for B75/767 ops.?Thanks Reimers.

[EAM]

yes but the Info's are old, from 2007 or????

oh yes, thats right, but they are still looking for F/Os

[hart744]

When I was 737 F/O in the 80's, it took us 8 years to get long haul position on 742 or DC10 F/O. OTOH, it took 5 - 6 years to get long haul DC10 F/O at Condor. Some would rather to fly to sunny destinations sooner rather than flying around Europe in miserable weather.

In those days, the 742 F/O position took us away from home a lot and we had very little time at home. SOme of the cargo flights went around the world and it took about 8 -10 days before I got home. So, it's really a life style issue.

I have a old classmate and we took different route in life. He flew for the air force. When he left the airforce, LH was not hiring and he was hired by LTU.

LH is a good company and provide good job security.

[Reimers]

so Munich and Frankfurt are the main base for B75/767 ops.?

All longhaul flights depart from Frankfurt, there is a significant operation of 757s from DUS, STR, MUC and to a lesser extend from HAM. This changes somewhat from one schedule period to the next.

A320 fly from the same German airports, in addition to HAJ, SXF and LEJ. This of course is not fixed. Currently, if I recall correctly, people will be based in HAJ, SXF or STR when joining the A320 fleet.

[zerograv]

Having had a quick look into Interpersonal website and checking that the job
discription is in German, one has to assume that a good command of the
German language is mandatory or, am I wrong?

Cheers,
Zero

[EAM]

Beherrschung der deutschen und englischen Sprache in Wort und Schrift

Yes, you need to know german.

[Martin_skywalker]

How serious are they about knowing the German language? Or is another way to say you need to be German?

[Kerosene Kraut]

No, just vocal and written german requested. Sounds more like a practical demand to me.

[Knee Trembler]

Re German language,

You'll find you need a good level of German language whichever company you want to work for, particularly within the Lufthansa group, but this definitely does NOT mean you need to be German.

Lufthansa Cityline have until recently been encouraging foreign pilots, with the incentive of being able to sit the infamous DLR GU (Lufthansa screening test) in English.

I'm a brit and just got a job with Augsburg Airways (part of Lufthansa Regional). To get there I did the afore mentioned GU in English, then the sim ride in German. A hundred question ATPL exam in English and the final interview in German.

I think it is fair to say that a high proportion of German pilots fail to get into the Lufthansa stream due, in fact, to lack of English.

On a general note, one sees a lot written about protectionist policies at the likes of KLM / Air France, BA etc. In practice, I think most of these companies are willing to entertain foreigners, just as long as they are willing to fit into their culture and, of course, meet the requirements.

KT

[EAM]

@Martin_skywalker.....well....you just need to Know german, thats it.
You dont need to speak it like you mother language...but you definitly need know more than what is needed to order a beer.

[Martin_skywalker]

Thank you for the info. I understand German, can read it as it is close to my native tongue, unfortunately writing and speaking is very basic. I reckon that is not good enough to get true the selections. Shame cause I am willing to "integrate" and learn the language.

[EAM]

As I always say, give it a try, at the end they can only say NO.

If you understand german and you prepare yourself a bit for the selection, well, why shouldnt it be enough.

Go for it.:ok:

[Kameel]

Has anyone recently been invited to the selection for F/O at Condor.

At the Interpersonal website they mention this:

Condor offers awarding job opportunities for experienced airline pilots as well as for graduates of flying schools.

• All experienced airline pilots, who have passed the LH, CLH, AUA GU and simulator screening will be invited to selection interview.

• All experienced airline pilots, who have passed the LH, CLH, AUA GU will be invited to a simulator screening and selection interview.

• All other applicants will be invited to a basic selection test, simulator screening and interview

But what does the basic selection test mean? I found some information about the simulator on german forums but from the test, the only mention the DLR tests

[EAM]

Yes thats it, the famous DLR Test, if you have passed the first stage of the DLR Test for LH, AUA, CLH, etc you are directly in the 2. phase, if not, you have to do that one first. Enjoy it:}

[yannick04]

For interview details see german forum.

good luck :ok:

[Iver]

I have always heard mainly positives regarding Condor. Nice airplanes and nice routes. In this case, is it the perceived low pay for newhire FOs that people should be concerned about? Can anyone estimate what is the current pay difference between a new/junior LH A320 FO and a new Condor A320 FO?

Lastly, will current LH pilots still be able to bid for Condor seats in the future or is that no longer the case?

[Reimers]

Lastly, will current LH pilots still be able to bid for Condor seats in the future or is that no longer the case?


To more switching from LH to Condor, only those currently employed by Condor that are also on the LH seniority list will be able to return to LH within the next youple of years.

[Sitting Bull]

Dear Yannick04

which "German forum"?

[yannick04]

see pilots.de

cheers Y4