NVFR Up North

[solowflyer]

Sorry for the dumb question but why do some operators up north require their pilots to have a NVFR rating?

[myshoutcaptain]

afternoon drop off's at communities and you return home at night. Fly freight around at night when the aircraft isn't being used etc etc

[300Series]

Also has at a guess that if you were NVFR rated then you would have a bit better basic IF skills than the non NVFR rated pilot and also be better at tracking off radio aids.

Apart from that as previously stated! Fly around at night in the dry season. I have done a fair bit in bo's and 206's, in my time up north.

300

[sms777]

Also that you do not get stranded due to the fact that up north from sunset to pitch dark is like...10 minutes?... Someone correct me if i am wrong.

[harropster]

ya, i use my nvfr up in the NT quite a bit. although i dont expect that to continue with the wet :*. still, it does come in handy

[The Green Goblin]

Its pitch black in the Kimberley at around 5pm during the middle of the dry........ Chance favours the prepared and you wouldn't be the first bug smasher in history to bust last light due to inexperience and not having the hairy set downstairs to tell the punters "we have got to stay the night due to them arriving at the airstrip later than the cut off time allowed".

Good skill to know how to work out a LSALT and crank on da lights and not hit anything rising from terra firma! just ask the blokes out at alice picking branches out of the gear :=

Nothing worse than pointing towards that horizon with your gut slowly sinking with the sun and a bit of build in the distance - very lonely, very lonely place indeed :(

[neville_nobody]

Are you suggesting that is isn't unusual for people to fly around SE NIght VFR with pax on?? Surely you can't be serious.......

An even lonelier place would be the court room after you had an emergency at night in a single engine aircraft with pax on board trying to explain your decisions to a judge. If the sun sets you stay where you are. If you have told your pax what time they need to be back and they don't make it that's their problem not yours.

[patienceboy]

I don't think people regularly intentionally fly past last light with pax, but inexperience probably causes it to happen every now and then.

Without a night rating, a simple error in calculations could end in disaster as you are not trained in calculating LSALT, navigating, approach and landing, use of rwy lights etc.

A night rating used to be required for the issue of a CPL.

Maybe said operators have learned from problems in the past.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

A night rating used to be required for the issue of a CPL.In much of the world it is required for (and included in the sylabus for) a PPL (or you can get a restricted PPL limiting one to Day Ops). Similar in law to the option of getting a PPL without the ability to enter CTA. It has been explained to me that the reason for Australia's decision is due to the difference in the number of Navaids.

If the sun sets you stay where you are. I don't wan't to nit-pick Nev but it could come down to a hair splitting decision hours before last light, maybe even after using the dodgy charts in the AIP Book or a storm forecast as Inter or Tempo which becomes a From.

I have seen the last scenario force a Rated pilot in a Day VFR single with CHTR pax to orbit for about an hour. There were no available alternates and on departure there was no legal requirement for any.

Back to the thread question of all the feathers to have in your hat (above the legal minimum) before doing CHTR NVFR is certainly THE one I would emplore any pilot to get (or an IR with NVFR priveledges).

FRQ CB

[The Green Goblin]

Neville there is always one isn't there!

Guy's occasionally bust last light through inexperience or poor decision making full stop. If you're in the situation it pays to have an NVFR up your sleeve to save the punters and of course yourself. It's also prudent to lodge a company safety report after such a breach and talk about it at the next company safety meeting so all the other fellas can learn and discuss.

Never happened to me personally but i know plenty of fellas that it has :{

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

**** happens, be prepared... (That's why every PPL/CPL student is taught how to get out of clouds)

~FRQ CB

[DUXNUTZ]

Certainly nothing unplanned ever happens in aviation???

I've had more stuff go wrong when i was flying VFR in the NT than multi IFR night freight. I don't know if i'd feel too good employing a low time guy without a CIR or NVFR to be honest.

[solowflyer]

I am NZ night rated but not Oz NVFR. Is a big difference between the 2 countries as there are no x country flights in the NZ rating nor nav by aides mainly a few circuits and may be a bit of a strop around the city.

I'm sure the insurance comapnies won't like people stooging around in the gloom NVFR nor the CP for that matter, he/she will probably be having kittens knowing their gaggle of pilots are still out and about

I think I will leave the night stuff untill I am flying IFR, I have a hard enough job finding my way round in the day time let alone in the dark.

[Van Gough]

I think I will leave the night stuff untill I am flying IFR, I have a hard enough job finding my way round in the day time let alone in the dark.

I have been on charters where I've planned to land at the latest possible time considering legal last light only to find that cloud cover has made it pitch black. So legally I was landing before last light, but I was still landing in the dark. A NVFR rating is a great card to have up your sleeve when there's not many other options which is why most charter places want you to have it (notwithstanding night freight etc). Just for a bit of extra safety.:ok:

[737pnf]

I don't understand myself. I'm currently training for my night rating, only because it makes me a more qualified pilot than someone without one, and because operators like pilots who have it. Maybe it's an insurance thing?

I know the Orders (40.2.2) don't allow commercial operations on a night rating...they only allow AWK and PVT.

I gave my instructor the example of my friend who worked out of Boorooloola, and took some passengers to Katherine for some medical checkups late one afternoon. He was asked to overnight in Katherine, and depart before first light to operate another CHTR flight from Borooloola about an hour after first light the next day. Now, wouldn't that nil pax flight be considered CHTR due to the fact that my friend was receiving remuneration for the positioning of the airplane?

Special word for Van Gogh - see the last sentence on page AIP GEN 2.7-1:...do not include the nature of the terrain surrounding a location, or the presence of other than a cloudless sky and unltd vis at the location.
...
Allowances should be made for these factors when planning for a flight having an ETA near the end of daylight.

[Tinstaafl]

No, not an insurance thing. NVFR is preferred for precisely the example you gave. Pilot's pay isn't necessarily relevent to whether or not the flight is considered a charter. It's possible, for example, for a private pilot to be paid quite legally under certain circumstances. Charter et. al. is defined in the CARs and unless the aircraft fits in one of the categories mentioned then it is not a charter flight.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Reaux,

"Now, wouldn't that nil pax flight be considered CHTR due to the fact that my friend was receiving remuneration for the positioning of the airplane?"

AWK?? Nil Pax, still a 'commercial op.' i.e. Pilot getting paid.
Therefore, able to proceed NVFR?

[lemel]

Reaux,

You can fly under the NVFR during a commercial op in a single. The only restriction is that it can not be passenger carrying. So that means that if you are empty or carring frieght only you can fly at night. :D

Something that I also didnt find out until I was up north is that your NVFR rating can be for a single or multi eng aircraft. So if you did your NVFR in a single, then you can not fly a twin under the NVFR. A way around this is if you have CIR you can fly a twin (day or night) provided you operate under the IFR. :ok:

LemeL

[morno]

A way around this is if you have CIR you can fly a twin (day or night) provided you operate under the IFR.

What a crock. Read your regs again. You can fly under the NVFR in a multi engine aircraft, if you only hold a S/E NVFR, provided your MECIR is still within it's expiry date.

morno

[Virtually There]

Just bumping this old thread as there seems to be some confusion over NVFR freight . . .


CAR 206 (1) (b) (i) defines "Charter Operations" as:
the carriage of passengers or cargo for hire or reward to or from any place . . .CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1 (3.1) states:
a night V.F.R. rating authorises the holder of the rating: (a) . . . to fly as pilot in command of aeroplanes having a take-off weight not exceeding 5 700 kg on private or aerial work flights within Australia by night under the V.F.RThere's nothing in Part 61 to contradict the above.

The grey area seems to be the definition of "Airwork" under CAR 206 (1) (a) (viii), to wit:
carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraftAm I correct to assume that the NVFR freight runs referred to in this thread fall under AWK as per the above?

"For the purposes of trade" could mean anything, after all.

Thanks for any clarification!

[deadcut]

Another reason is if you end up flying to a place with a TEMPO then you have to be back a whopping 1 hour and 10 minutes before last light. Unless you have a NVFR.

[mikedreamer787]

'Twas Class 4 (Night VMC) rating in my day.

Crisscrossing the Top End at night gave me
more attacks of the leans than when I did
my CIR, esp when bushfires were around.

Dunno how many times I'd slammed into
cloud at night simply because I couldn't
see it - moonless nights were darker than
the inside of a black billy goat's arse in a
coal mine.

But all great experiences though and it did
me good stead.

[Virtually There]

Hey guys, I bumped this for a reason - anyone know the answer to my question? Cheers.

[Draggertail]

deadcut said, "Another reason is if you end up flying to a place with a TEMPO then you have to be back a whopping 1 hour and 10 minutes before last light. Unless you have a NVFR."


Not sure I'd be game to fly around NVFR while I can't land due to the tempo.

[topdrop]

You arrive in vicinity an hour and ten mins prior to last light, maintain VMC and wait for that TEMPO to run itself out at 10mins prior to last light and then land. We all know met never get a forecast wrong!! :hmm::hmm::ooh::ooh: :{:{

[wrenval]

Just bumping this thread for a quick question. If you have a instrument rating is there any point getting the night rating?

[Hugh Jarse]

Wrenval, no, there is not. I have never held a NVFR rating (or Class 4 Instrument Rating, as it was called then). I completed a Class 1 (now Command) Instrument Rating whilst holding a PPL, and that covered me for the NVFR component of the CPL when I eventually finished my training. In the interim, the company I worked for at the time (private ops) required an IFR rating, so I never bothered with the NVFR stuff. It holds little value IMO anyway.

[wrenval]

Thanks Hugh. I had some people telling me it's useless, some people telling me it's useful because it's easier to keep current. But I guess if you keep the IR current then it will always cover you for night as well (as long as you got the aeronautical experience at night).

[Tankengine]

As long as you are flying IFR aircraft!:hmm:

Many VFR singles and some twins would be NVFR.
I suspect to fly them after dark you would require a NVFR rating.

[Ramjet555]

Lots of interesting posts on flying in the Top End. I recall running out of daylight and having to land prior to destination when the flight planned GS was not achieved and exactly at that time, the HF frequency would start getting music from Asia.


Rules are supposedly to make operations safer however when "Rules" are framed by lawyers who have little or no practical knowledge of the effects of their "rules" it creates a nightmare.

There is a double standard. Its OK for a pilot to be placed at risk at night but as long as he crashes with freight and not passengers.

As you get closer to the tropics, the sun goes down fast and completely. It turns a pitch black while when you operate closer to the poles, when the sun goes down you can still see for hours and if the moon comes out as well, you can see pretty well.

New Zealand has a better grasp of the problem. NVR is just for circuits.


The reality is that a student getting a commercial and has to knock off their 10 hours doing night circuits is not limited by the lack of a moon, the lack of city lights or lighting period.

NVFR relies entirely on forecast weather and if that weather changes enroute then a NVFR can end up between layers, in the black, and it could be more dangerous to try to do a 180 or divert than to proceed.

It's almost guaranteed that a NVR flight will eventually enter either entirely black sky and or cloud and end up IFR.

If I recall correctly, if your CPL IFR expires, you had better have an entry in your log book for the required night cross country?
Perhaps someone else can post on that.

.

[Pinky the pilot]

As previous posters have mentioned, what was then known as a Class 4 Instrument Rating or Night VMC used to be a requirement for the CPL.

No idea why it was dropped as a requirement and consider it a retrograde step M'self.

It was handy for me anyway one time when my MEIFR rating had expired and I had to do some firespotting for the local CFS.

If I recall correctly, if your CPL IFR expires, you had better have an entry in your log book for the required night cross country

Think you are correct on that.

[wrenval]

Tankengine: I thought about this exact issue actually and mulled it over some time. Are you completely sure about this point? I interpreted the regs that you can operate NVFR under your IR, so technically the aircraft only needs to be NVFR rated because you are operating under NVFR rules?

Ramjet555
Pinky the Pilot: If your IR expires, wouldn't that mean any night xcountry hours be irrelevant, and you be ****s regardless? I understand you need certain xcountry to allow you do charter at night under your IR rating though

[deadcut]

Tankengine: I thought about this exact issue actually and mulled it over some time. Are you completely sure about this point? I interpreted the regs that you can operate NVFR under your IR, so technically the aircraft only needs to be NVFR rated because you are operating under NVFR rules?

Wrenval,

I interpret the rules just like you do and so did my chief pilot.
If you have enough hours for the issue of a NVFR (excluding the NVFR Flight Test) and you have a valid IF then you can go NVFR in a NVFR rated aircraft. If I am wrong then could someone please show me the relevant information stating otherwise.

[Virtually There]

Simple answer. IR has to be renewed every 12 months. NVFR has to be renewed every 24 months.

Depending on where you are up north, you may not be able to renew your IR. NVFR allows you to drop off passengers late in the day and return the aircraft at night, or fly night freight.

It's handy for those who can't renew their IR every 12 months due to location.

[Pinky the pilot]

Pinky the Pilot: If your IR expires, wouldn't that mean any night xcountry hours be irrelevant, and you be ****s regardless

As far as I know; No, but only if you have held (and hold?) a Night VFR.

My understanding of it, but I may be wrong! Wouldn't be the first time either!:O

I'm sure that someone with the correct info will be along in due course.