The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

NVFR Up North

Old 1st Dec 2008, 06:59
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: cloud9
Posts: 374
NVFR Up North

Sorry for the dumb question but why do some operators up north require their pilots to have a NVFR rating?
solowflyer is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 07:02
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Chunny
Posts: 171
afternoon drop off's at communities and you return home at night. Fly freight around at night when the aircraft isn't being used etc etc
myshoutcaptain is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 07:12
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 53
Posts: 97
Also has at a guess that if you were NVFR rated then you would have a bit better basic IF skills than the non NVFR rated pilot and also be better at tracking off radio aids.

Apart from that as previously stated! Fly around at night in the dry season. I have done a fair bit in bo's and 206's, in my time up north.

300
300Series is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 07:27
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 677
Also that you do not get stranded due to the fact that up north from sunset to pitch dark is like...10 minutes?... Someone correct me if i am wrong.
sms777 is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 08:03
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 25
ya, i use my nvfr up in the NT quite a bit. although i dont expect that to continue with the wet . still, it does come in handy
harropster is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 09:57
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Shire
Posts: 2,904
Its pitch black in the Kimberley at around 5pm during the middle of the dry........ Chance favours the prepared and you wouldn't be the first bug smasher in history to bust last light due to inexperience and not having the hairy set downstairs to tell the punters "we have got to stay the night due to them arriving at the airstrip later than the cut off time allowed".

Good skill to know how to work out a LSALT and crank on da lights and not hit anything rising from terra firma! just ask the blokes out at alice picking branches out of the gear

Nothing worse than pointing towards that horizon with your gut slowly sinking with the sun and a bit of build in the distance - very lonely, very lonely place indeed
The Green Goblin is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 22:07
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In da Big Smoke
Posts: 2,332
Are you suggesting that is isn't unusual for people to fly around SE NIght VFR with pax on?? Surely you can't be serious.......

An even lonelier place would be the court room after you had an emergency at night in a single engine aircraft with pax on board trying to explain your decisions to a judge. If the sun sets you stay where you are. If you have told your pax what time they need to be back and they don't make it that's their problem not yours.
neville_nobody is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 22:35
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In the sky, mostly
Posts: 47
I don't think people regularly intentionally fly past last light with pax, but inexperience probably causes it to happen every now and then.

Without a night rating, a simple error in calculations could end in disaster as you are not trained in calculating LSALT, navigating, approach and landing, use of rwy lights etc.

A night rating used to be required for the issue of a CPL.

Maybe said operators have learned from problems in the past.
patienceboy is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2008, 08:44
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 40
Posts: 714
A night rating used to be required for the issue of a CPL.
In much of the world it is required for (and included in the sylabus for) a PPL (or you can get a restricted PPL limiting one to Day Ops). Similar in law to the option of getting a PPL without the ability to enter CTA. It has been explained to me that the reason for Australia's decision is due to the difference in the number of Navaids.

If the sun sets you stay where you are.
I don't wan't to nit-pick Nev but it could come down to a hair splitting decision hours before last light, maybe even after using the dodgy charts in the AIP Book or a storm forecast as Inter or Tempo which becomes a From.

I have seen the last scenario force a Rated pilot in a Day VFR single with CHTR pax to orbit for about an hour. There were no available alternates and on departure there was no legal requirement for any.

Back to the thread question of all the feathers to have in your hat (above the legal minimum) before doing CHTR NVFR is certainly THE one I would emplore any pilot to get (or an IR with NVFR priveledges).

FRQ CB

Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo; 2nd Dec 2008 at 08:55.
FRQ Charlie Bravo is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2008, 09:06
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Shire
Posts: 2,904
Neville there is always one isn't there!

Guy's occasionally bust last light through inexperience or poor decision making full stop. If you're in the situation it pays to have an NVFR up your sleeve to save the punters and of course yourself. It's also prudent to lodge a company safety report after such a breach and talk about it at the next company safety meeting so all the other fellas can learn and discuss.

Never happened to me personally but i know plenty of fellas that it has
The Green Goblin is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2008, 10:38
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 40
Posts: 714
There are usually more than one

Shit happens, be prepared... (That's why every PPL/CPL student is taught how to get out of clouds)

~FRQ CB
FRQ Charlie Bravo is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2008, 17:44
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 465
Certainly nothing unplanned ever happens in aviation???

I've had more stuff go wrong when i was flying VFR in the NT than multi IFR night freight. I don't know if i'd feel too good employing a low time guy without a CIR or NVFR to be honest.
DUXNUTZ is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2008, 23:16
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: cloud9
Posts: 374
I am NZ night rated but not Oz NVFR. Is a big difference between the 2 countries as there are no x country flights in the NZ rating nor nav by aides mainly a few circuits and may be a bit of a strop around the city.

I'm sure the insurance comapnies won't like people stooging around in the gloom NVFR nor the CP for that matter, he/she will probably be having kittens knowing their gaggle of pilots are still out and about

I think I will leave the night stuff untill I am flying IFR, I have a hard enough job finding my way round in the day time let alone in the dark.
solowflyer is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2008, 00:43
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: FL350
Posts: 128
I think I will leave the night stuff untill I am flying IFR, I have a hard enough job finding my way round in the day time let alone in the dark.
I have been on charters where I've planned to land at the latest possible time considering legal last light only to find that cloud cover has made it pitch black. So legally I was landing before last light, but I was still landing in the dark. A NVFR rating is a great card to have up your sleeve when there's not many other options which is why most charter places want you to have it (notwithstanding night freight etc). Just for a bit of extra safety.
Van Gough is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2008, 01:59
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 43
I don't understand myself. I'm currently training for my night rating, only because it makes me a more qualified pilot than someone without one, and because operators like pilots who have it. Maybe it's an insurance thing?

I know the Orders (40.2.2) don't allow commercial operations on a night rating...they only allow AWK and PVT.

I gave my instructor the example of my friend who worked out of Boorooloola, and took some passengers to Katherine for some medical checkups late one afternoon. He was asked to overnight in Katherine, and depart before first light to operate another CHTR flight from Borooloola about an hour after first light the next day. Now, wouldn't that nil pax flight be considered CHTR due to the fact that my friend was receiving remuneration for the positioning of the airplane?

Special word for Van Gogh - see the last sentence on page AIP GEN 2.7-1:...do not include the nature of the terrain surrounding a location, or the presence of other than a cloudless sky and unltd vis at the location.
...
Allowances should be made for these factors when planning for a flight having an ETA near the end of daylight.
737pnf is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2008, 02:27
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Posts: 4,230
No, not an insurance thing. NVFR is preferred for precisely the example you gave. Pilot's pay isn't necessarily relevent to whether or not the flight is considered a charter. It's possible, for example, for a private pilot to be paid quite legally under certain circumstances. Charter et. al. is defined in the CARs and unless the aircraft fits in one of the categories mentioned then it is not a charter flight.

Last edited by Tinstaafl; 6th Dec 2008 at 02:56.
Tinstaafl is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2008, 04:34
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Up The 116E, Stbd Turn at 32S...:-)
Age: 77
Posts: 2,705
Chtr vs Awk?

Reaux,

"Now, wouldn't that nil pax flight be considered CHTR due to the fact that my friend was receiving remuneration for the positioning of the airplane?"

AWK?? Nil Pax, still a 'commercial op.' i.e. Pilot getting paid.
Therefore, able to proceed NVFR?
Ex FSO GRIFFO is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2008, 05:20
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 117
Reaux,

You can fly under the NVFR during a commercial op in a single. The only restriction is that it can not be passenger carrying. So that means that if you are empty or carring frieght only you can fly at night.

Something that I also didnt find out until I was up north is that your NVFR rating can be for a single or multi eng aircraft. So if you did your NVFR in a single, then you can not fly a twin under the NVFR. A way around this is if you have CIR you can fly a twin (day or night) provided you operate under the IFR.

LemeL
lemel is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2008, 06:22
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 1,570
A way around this is if you have CIR you can fly a twin (day or night) provided you operate under the IFR.
What a crock. Read your regs again. You can fly under the NVFR in a multi engine aircraft, if you only hold a S/E NVFR, provided your MECIR is still within it's expiry date.

morno
morno is online now  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 08:16
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 190
Just bumping this old thread as there seems to be some confusion over NVFR freight . . .


CAR 206 (1) (b) (i) defines "Charter Operations" as:
the carriage of passengers or cargo for hire or reward to or from any place . . .
CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1 (3.1) states:
a night V.F.R. rating authorises the holder of the rating: (a) . . . to fly as pilot in command of aeroplanes having a take-off weight not exceeding 5 700 kg on private or aerial work flights within Australia by night under the V.F.R
There's nothing in Part 61 to contradict the above.

The grey area seems to be the definition of "Airwork" under CAR 206 (1) (a) (viii), to wit:
carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft
Am I correct to assume that the NVFR freight runs referred to in this thread fall under AWK as per the above?

"For the purposes of trade" could mean anything, after all.

Thanks for any clarification!
Virtually There is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.