ICAO English - Italian ATC

[User_Irish88]

Hi just came to my attention the other day about how hard some of the Italian controllers are to understand over the radio. While flying over Italian airspace I had spoken to a few different controllers in different regions, and noticed that alot of them were very hard to understand due to phraseology differences, or simply their accents. I know that current pilots were given a pass mark for their first English proficiancy check, did controllers get this same deal?
Also I was surprised when I heard they were speaking Italian over the radio at times (not in busy airspace but more towards counry-side areas).

[ron83]

Not being an Italian, but I think if you fly to such regions you should also adjust your rate of speech and speak more clearly,you should understand that you're not in Ireland:Eas for other language on frequency,try to fly in France,even in AMS they speak dutch from time to time;)

[BelArgUSA]

Oh, you can criticize the Italians.
Do not forget to Greeks, and the Spaniards, or the French.
xxx
I lived many years in USA... where I acquired a Hollywood/California accent.
Sorry about my English. Sorry I spell "tires" and not "tyres"...
I personally complain about UK ATC with the Limey's and Yorkshire accents.
You speak one kind if English, I speak another. I (generally) understand.
For me, proper English can be heard i.e. on the BBC...
Not on the streets of Manchester.
xxx
Who speaks correct ATC/ICAO English...?
The Dutch, the Germans, the Scandinavians... better than UK or New York.
Never had problem with Italians...
Nor with Indians and Pakistanis, if they slow down their motor-mouth.
And I know that in Tokyo, "turn light" really means "turn right"...
xxx
:rolleyes:
Happy contrails

[Dee Mac]

That's quite allright, your apology is accepted, unfortunately that was the only bit I understood.

[ProM]

To help you understand I put BelArg's post through babelfish into japanese and then back again. You gain a whole new understanding. I particularly like the description of the UK regional accents as 'yoke plain gauze'

Well, the Italian person can be criticized. To the Greek person it reaches the Spanish or French does not have to forget. As for xxx me in the place where many year I obtain the Hollywood or California accent the United States…You had lived. Concerning my England regrettable. As for regrettable me " You put together; tires" And " which is not; tyres" … As for me Limey' It is dissatisfaction privately concerning English ATC; s and accent of yoke plain gauze. If English, speaks my another ones, you speak 1 types. You understand I () generally. Because of me, appropriate English can hear namely with BBC,… With the Manchester sort which is not. The English of ATC/ICAO where xxx someone is correct…You speak? The Dutch person and German, is better than England or New York the Scandinavian person… who. Problem of the Italian person whom it did not have under any condition… If the Indian person and the Pakistani person and, they decelerate their motor mouths. And as for me Tokyo " You know that; Revolution light" Actually " It means; " It bends on the right; … xxx happy condensation trail

[Boingboingdriver]

I believe the original post was about the #fluency# of italian controllers..
Of course each nationality has a different accent when speaking english...i find the scottish the most difficult to comprehend.
I have a UK ATPL and have not problems understanding and communicating(not being english),HOWEVER putting aside the obvious poor RT of some european/american airlines, some ATC including the ITALIAN one show the most serious lack of english proficiency..it is most clear when they are asked non standard questions..it seems they learned a certain english ROUTINE phraseology..and when some happens out of the box,they tend to be rather lost or at least very slow to catch up...which is worrying....French ATC at least Paris speak well english and do understand non standard requests ....as far the greeks,polish,hungarians,africans,turks...etc....much to be improved....ATC phraseology isnt enough...broad language knowledge should be the norm.

[BelArgUSA]

ProM -
xxx
Tells me clearly to avoid babelfish...
No wonder I did not get along with my Tokyo Rose girlfriend 20 years ago.
I remember one translation with electronic means...
"Flesh and carnal desire is bad" translated as "the meat you want is rotten"
xxx
:ugh:
Happy contrails

[!turnleftrightnow!]

I can´t complain about the English knowledge of my Italian colleagues. However, I heard they were all given English proficiency stage 6 = native speaker without actually being tested.

[lucavettu]

However, I heard they were all given English proficiency stage 6 = native speaker without actually being tested.

I'm an italian ATCO but I've never heard such a thing. :confused:

[normally right blank]

Well, the Dutch person can be criticized! He wrote that I won 500.000 ibs. I paid the xxx fee, that he told me, but no "ibs" yet! :suspect:

[lucaberta]

However, I heard they were all given English proficiency stage 6 = native speaker without actually being tested.as Luca said, this is not true. What you say was done by the FAA in USA, but not in Italy.

What is true though, is the fact that ENAC, the italian CAA, was not prepared when the ICAO Language Profienciency came into effect (as if they did not have any time to prepare... :ugh: ) and so their initial enforcement of LP was to give ICAO level 4 english and level 6 *italian* to all those pilots who had a valid ENAC licence. I would think that they have done the same with ATCOs.

Giving english level 4 LP by default allowed ENAC to buy some more time, and I believe that at this time LP testing issue have been sorted out and things are, on the bureaucratic side, sorted.

Not so on the fluency in english, though... I totally agree, if you keep the conversation on the radio to basic ATC phraseology, Italy is no worse than a lot of other places. But if you digress just a little, then you will surely find people that will not be able to articulate their thoughts properly in english.

But isn't this the same in the cockpit, after all? And isn't this the same in most of the countries where english is not the mother language?

I know, I know... Netherlands, nordic countries... the fact that they don't dub movies in their own language surely helps them to pick up a better english. But this is what we have in Italy.

Ciao, Luca
(who is glad to have parents that made him start to study english at 6 years of age...)

[Ivor_Novello]

Luca

Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.

:)

[seagull87]

I really have to admit that...

As far as we all know, the main problem concerning the ATC phraseology is that we always say the same holy sentences.

The biggest problem here in the "beautiful country" is that, as I know (but you can always correct me) there are a lot of ex-military air traffic controller around the frequencies.
Unfortunately, italian air force did not take care about the basic spoken english level requested to be an ATC during the 70s or the 80s. This means that now, there are a lot of guys who difficultly understand an english conversation.
Just to be clear, I'm NOT saying that all ex-military ATC do not understand english, but there's a quite great number of people which can't answer "non-aviation related" questions.

And more, as far as I know, actually there aren't any english course taking place in Italy.

Thinking positive guys, it seems that during the last ATC selections, ENAV (the italian ATS provider) gave more importance to english then they did in the past.

Leave the gun. Take the cannoli. It would be nice! :ok: The more you want the more I can bring to you :ok:

Greetings to all, particularly to lucaberta and lucavettu, the guys I find everywhere in the net

[normally right blank]

Well, on Friday I got my R/T licence! (ESAAR 5 - and all that jazz :cool:):
A "4" in English and a "5" in Danish!
Best Regards
P.S. Have controlled military and civilian aircraft since 1976.

[thealps]

It's an interesting topic....

I'm an atco working in an adjacent center to Italy and I coordinate daily with different italian centers. I'm afraid I have to say that their english is not the best, eventhough there are exceptions of course. As long as you keep to standard phraseology it's ok but as soon as you try something outside of that you quickly realize that they didn't understand one single word!!
In my experience it's the same with the french.
Don't mean to offend anyone here but the sad truth is that there are a lot of ATCO:s whose english definitely needs improvement, not only in Italy and France.
I'm not exactly an english-professor myself but I grew up in a country where the films on TV where not dubbed....:ugh: