Oceanic Standards

[Maria Callas]

Did my first pond crossing this morning for the first time in a while. Are the standards for HF position report RT procedures and the use of 123.45 for baseball scores/pay discussions/strike discussions getting worse or am I just not reducing my standards sufficiently? Just hope I don't have to leave a NAT and try to get a word in edgeways.

Seem to remember somebody mentioning RT discipline once. And there was I trying to impress standards on the new first officer.

[lugnet]

Just a tip but I think you might find that the Atlantic is only refered to as the "pond" in cheap second rate fiction.
By the way what company lets new first officers fly across this "pond"?

[E. MORSE]

BMI ?
:)

[Maria Callas]

Sorry lugnet, too much Jackie Collins

F/O is new to the company, experienced ex-mil. Wrong implication by me - just think that we're the one's who need to maintain standards and not hack off the busy operators at Gander and Shanwick.

As for the company, we're not BMI.

[411A]

Would have to agree, the idle chit-chat is a nuisance. Some guys need to put a cork in on the common frequency. Do not hear this over Africa.

[BenThere]

All you need to do is say "help" "emergency" or some such and the chatter will disappear immediately. It's a long ride and the contact helps some stay awake. I've never heard chatter on 21.5.

[Airbubba]

>>Are the standards for HF position report RT procedures and the use of 123.45 for baseball scores/pay discussions/strike discussions getting worse or am I just not reducing my standards sufficiently?<<

Oh no! Another Yank bashing thread <g>...

And to answer the next question, here's how to reduce your standards sufficiently:


http://www.ins.gov/graphics/howdoi/LPReligibility.htm

[Prof2MDA]

First off, many do refer to the Atlantic as "the pond", particularly those that have been crossing it for many, many years. Perhaps not doing so is your company culture?

In any event, as compared to the Pacific, the Altantic is not much more than pond! Heck, is it even big enough to maintain its own eco-system, or does it just depend on fresh supplies of new aquatic life sneaking over from the Pacific? ;-)

Of course, that makes any of the world's "great lakes" more akin to mud wallows, but that's life. ;-)

As to the chatter being necessary (well, helping, anyway) due to the flight across the mud wallow, er, pond, uh, I mean, "the wide and glorious Atlantic" being "long", why then is such chatter visibly absent (for the most part) from the Pacific?

[DrSyn]

Whilst I shall always bow to superior knowledge and experience, lugnet, having regularly flown the Atlantic since 1972, I am slightly pained to find that I have derived my jargon from "cheap second rate fiction". Unfortunately, I was only trained to cross that ocean by those who had been doing so since no earlier than WW2.

Due notice is taken that I, my contemporary colleagues on this side of The Pond, and our cousins in North America who also tend to use this expression, should adjust our literary tastes.

No dis intended Bro, as one might say these days, perhaps.

MC, your observations on 123.45 (and predecessor) have, alas, long been true, and I am probably not the only one who feels much the same about the misuse of 121.5 in recent times. Why such conversations, at least after initial hailing, cannot be conducted on company has baffled me for years. I am slightly surprised at your comments on HF discipline, however.

The problem with the latter is that there are insufficient channels available during the busy periods and there is consequently a lot of "stepping-on" by air and ground stations alike. This may be what you are referring to, always remembering that not everyone can hear what you can on HF.

The root of all evil is money, otherwise known as politics. The technology to make the Pond (sorry, lugnet, I'll try to kick the habit) a satellite SSR/"VHF" environment has been around for 20 years. Without the political impetus, we are stuck with the current system. The Pacific is getting there but is still behind the technological drag curve.

Nil desperandum and all that, MC, welcome back to The Pond -- for that it still is in more ways than one. Reasonably safe, nonetheless.

[10W]

DrSyn

You'll now find that a fair proportion of Oceanic clearances and position reports on the NAT are actually made by datalink, be it SATCOM, VHF Datalink, or whatever. This includes all the major carriers. Somewhere around 40% of all requests or reports are now made this way I believe, and the figure is growing monthly.

The root cause is no longer politics since the ground systems are available (and have been on various development trials with a select group of airline operators for about 3 years). The ball is now firmly in the court of the airlines to equip, train, and join in the progress if they want to ;)

Have a word with your beancounters and tell them to get in touch about joining in !!


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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[max_cont]

Just to add my bit lugnet.

In the LGW crewroom, in the Co I work for, we sometimes still call it "the pond".

I know that as a Co, we're rather new to the game, we've only been around for 40 yrs. ;)

I guess I'll have to stop this habbit. I didn't know that "professionals" didn't call it that any more :)

Oh well, it seems I've learnt nothing in twenty years. ( adjusts goggles and scarf...wanders back to the hanger) :)

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

The oceanic room in prestwick is simply known as "The Pond"

[Max Angle]

E. Morse.

No new first officers on the A330 at BMI. All the FO's on the fleet have at least 2 years service, some 3-4. It's been done on seniority (mostly) so no junior FO's or Captains are going to get near it.

[75Jock]

Max Angle, you say there's no new first officers on the A330??? err...bit confused- the whole fleet is new to both the A330 and ETOPs/ longhaul isn't it??...without exception, you dont have anyone on the fleet with longhaul experience do you?? I,m not having a go but I have a few buddys there and the experience level is a bit lacking on the Transatlantic front so I hear.

[max_cont]

75jock, it seems they let anybody fly the pond these days..sniff...

Two years is SENIOR!! in Bmi is it?

In my day, it took two years to complete the line training.

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Stay cool, stay longer.

[Diesel8]

Amazing what you people on the right side of the pond will argue about. Looking N of course.


[This message has been edited by Diesel8 (edited 20 May 2001).]

[10W]

Homer Simpsons Love Child

Must be an aircrew thing ;) Worked in the building for 20 years and never ever heard any ATCOs refer to the Oceanic Ops Room as the 'Pond'.

'Ocean' is the common name.

------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[M14P]

75Jock, so what you're saying is that you have to have done it to do it? Catch 22. The North Atlantic is no longer the desperate challenge that it once was (thank heavens). As for experience, I think that you'll find that all of the Trainers have been flying the A330 long haul with other companies.

I never thought I would see North Atlantic snobbery. It really is quite childish. Oh, by the way, I do wish folks would ease up a little on the general chit chat.

[DrSyn]

10W, I agree with the point made in your first post. However, the statistic you quoted would have been 100% if the necessary politics had been applied with the same vigour as for MNPS/RVSM. Beancounters will not pass out a single bean unless obliged to. The economic advantages of these things are rarely understood in those quarters, never mind safety. See you at the Gatbash!

M14P, well said.

lugnet, cute, but rather wide of the mark. Also not really adding anything constructive to the original post. But, hey! . . . This is PPRuNe - what the heck?

[Electric Sky]

Just for the record:

bmi A330 pilots flew all of last year with Airtours and Monarch on the type. This was one of the many requirements to achieve 180 min ETOPS prior to startup. :)

[tired]

And another thing........!

Just where do you train new first officers if you work for a company that only does long haul, luggie? Should we give them their first 1000 hours on type in the circuit...?

And we call it the pond in my outfit too..