Qantas and RAAF pool pilots

[Transition Layer]

Qantas and RAAF pool pilots

By Charles Miranda

The Daily Telegraph

November 27, 2008 12:01am

THE cockpits of the nation's fighter planes and commercial Qantas aircraft will be staffed from a shared pool of pilots under an extraordinary plan to combat a desperate shortage of military manpower.

The Daily Telegraph can reveal the blueprint for the future of Australia's military as it seeks to establish a sharing of personnel to stop poaching.

Under arrangements being considered by the Federal Government, the pool of pilots would be able to travel freely back and forth between the public and private sectors.

The move is aimed at addressing a series of damning internal audits that showed Australia's fighter planes and pilots are not meeting basic air flight hours due to a lack of personnel both in the air and on the ground.

The audits reveal a similar shortfall with Navy ships and sailors.

"We've got to ask, in partnership with Qantas, whether we are getting maximum utilisation out of a limited number of people," Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said yesterday.

Speaking exclusively to The Daily Telegraph as he toured a military dock in Spain where the RAN's hybrid aircraft carrier is being built, Mr Fitzgibbon said Australia's population was too small to sustain public and private employment needs.

He said the as-yet-to-be-released defence White Paper, a review of the nation's strategic military outlook, would address shortcomings including creating a "better relationship" with the commercial sector.

"There are two aspects to that, one is optimising the workplace model so the defence force and commercial airlines are effectively sharing personnel, and the second is making it easier for pilots to transit easily backwards and forwards so they are looking at the greener pastures on the other side," Mr Fitzgibbon said.

A Qantas spokesman said last night its airline was currently training RAAF pilots, engineers and other crew on Qantas aircraft ahead of the military taking delivery of a multi airtanker aircraft since the controls were compatible.

"Qantas isn't aware of any other approach," the spokesman said, adding also the airline did not target RAAF pilots to poach.

Mr Fitzgibbon said: "We are no more than 20 million people and there's not much point investing billions of dollars in capability if we don't have the people to man and operate that capability."

It is understood the White Paper, charting the military future to 2030, gives reservists a more central role.


I'll take a seat in the F-111 thanks!!!

[damo1089]

Perhaps SO's could be ACO's and still get into the F111 :ok:

[Transition Layer]

Haha, touche'

I still remember how to fly an aeroplane...I think.

[nick2007]

I would think that the differing levels of pay/working conditions etc between the two would see the pool of pilots want to gravitate in one direction (or another)... would the whole scheme be self-defeating?
It might tread on a few toes as well.

[Jabawocky]

Good point Nick2007

What will the RAAF do? :uhoh: they do not have enough aircraft as it is:eek:

J:E

[Bullethead]

Bugger! Nuthin I flew in the RAAF is still current, all old and tired like me. :{

[Lodown]

I was all for a change of government at the last election, but if this crap keeps up, the Labor Party won't make it past the next election. I hate to say it, but this proposal, as reported, reeks of Socialism 101. This proposal, should it come to fruition, will do more damage to Australian aviation than any other measure in the last 20 years. It might sound good on paper and appears enticing to many pilots and HR personnel looking for short-term resolution to growing staffing problems, but it's a poison chalice. It's a stop-gap proposal to fix a problem that has been culminating as a result of many years of political and business exploitation. It's going to create massive problems down the road if it goes ahead, not just for the aviation industry, but with huge repercussions throughout the entire Australian community and business market.

It may be that I am just reading more into a slightly disjointed report than I should be, but keeping ex-RAAF pilots and reservists current with RAAF requirements is one thing, and I fully support that, but somehow sharing pilots between organizations sounds to me like a structure aimed towards protectionism, cronyism and nepotism leading to a massive increase in government protection (if that is possible), with a corresponding reduction in business competition and ultimately a decline in pilots' negotiation position and job opportunities. Fitzgibbon's specific reference to Qantas at the exclusion of other current and possibly future airlines does nothing to appease my concern. It's blurring the line between business and government, commercial concerns and military operations. This proposal turns a blind eye to the benefits of a market economy and rolls the clock back 50 years or more to government owned airlines.

I hope someone in Canberra gives Fitzgibbon a couple of short, sharp whacks with the reality stick before he inserts his foot in his mouth again. Defence minister? He doesn't deserve to run a kindergarten with those comments. The Labor Party needs to recognize that it didn't win the last election. The Liberal Party lost it. At this stage, it appears that the Labor party is intent on losing the next one. Between Liberal Transport Ministers and Labor Defence Ministers, it's apparent that there's a massive vacuum in leadership in Canberra affecting both parties.

[Captain Sand Dune]

I'd take anything the Australian media says about aviation with a shovel of salt, and anything they say about military aviation with a truck load.:yuk:
I'll wait until the dust settles before passing opinion on this one.
HOWEVER I will again beat my drum about the RAAF's pathetic management of it's pilots.
The RAAF really needs to get out of it's "upwards and onwards" mindset of pilot management, i.e. not all pilots want to be promoted. Let's face it, they joined to fly, not to push bits of paper around which the system seems Hell bent on doing to them after about 10 years after graduation.
Additionally the RAAF really needs to take an axe to it's upper command structure (i.e. above unit level). A good start would be the Wing/Group thing, which seems to me to be nothing more than a holding pool for senior officers. 23 years ago we had more flying units, and we seemed to get on just fine without Wings and Groups!
Look after the highly trained, qualified and experienced people we already have and they will stay.
Time for 60 Minutes to do another story about pilot management in the RAAF!
Where's a troll when you need one..................

[Gnadenburg]

Now lodown I am not a government apologist but if I were a new Defence Minister and I was told there were not the resources to send a detachment of fighters to Afganistan nor provide medevac to our troops with our own helicopters I would be very displeased.

Scratch the surface and Defence seems to be a basket case. So much so it should be classified for national security reasons.

An initiative to get more pilot numbers per aircraft on RAAF types sensible if you are in the business of going to war. Of course it would be sensible too to look at managing current resources.

[Trojan1981]

I was all for a change of government at the last election, but if this crap keeps up, the Labor Party won't make it past the next election.

Well, actually...
Deserting voters return to restore Rudd ratings | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24701985-2702,00.html)

Most voters don't care about these issues. I don't know how it will work but at least he is doing something.

if I were a new Defence Minister and I was told there were not the resources to send a detachment of fighters to Afganistan nor provide medevac to our troops with our own helicopters I would be very displeased.

Scratch the surface and Defence seems to be a basket case. So much so it should be classified for national security reasons.
:ok:

[Lodown]

Gnadenburg, yes it looks simple as a proposal, but it goes way further than utilizing reservists like the practice done in the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but US reservists allocate a few weeks every year to USAF Reserve duty, and when called upon, must be made available. The US government keeps at an arms length from the airlines and their operations. This Australian proposal appears (and I stress "appears") to be a lot more in-depth and seems to be a joint utilization more for convenience than national defence. "Sharing" of pilots means the government will be in the aviation business, and the airlines will be in the military business, whether intending to be or not.

Yes, an initiative to get/retain more pilots into the military and the commercial arenas would be smart, but the proposed solution, as reported, is IMHO, the wrong solution. Join the RAAF and get a job with Qantas! It means the airlines have a vested interest in the military/government and vice versa; moreso than if the pilots are in the Reserves and called up for wartime duty. This proposal appears to apply even during peacetime.

The solution to the shortage of pilots has been discussed at length by PPRuNe contributors, especially WRT to Rex and their woes. And as for the RAAF...they've purchased everything hi-tech except an image that encourages recruits and personnel retention. Blame a culture of indiscriminate cost-cutting in part, and little consideration for the lives of the people being affected.

[Yusef Danet]

with A330 tankers, 737/BBJs, 737 based wedgetails and potentially 737 based P8 Poseidons the RAAF's fleet could soon look a lot like Qantas'.

Next replace the Caribous with Dash 8s?

It's all a very logical proposal to me, but why should VB 737 or Jetstar A330 pilots be excluded?

[Lodown]

With one very big difference Yusef. In one organisation, you're a prime target and regarded as expendable.

[panzerd18]

Surely this would only be for RAAF pilots who have left for the airlines and are a known quantity to the RAAF?

[t_cas]

lodown, sounds like the airline business to me.

[ramble on]

Like most everything else in the RAAF that I knew:

"Equipped for, but not with........................".............pilots

[Roller Merlin]

Capt Sand Dune is on the money.

The shortage of RAAF pilots is a systemic one due to the gross lack of senior leadership over the past 15 years, plus political interference by ministers, all of whom do not comprehend captaincy development beyond their own limited (often single pilot) experience. Calls to change the RAAF pilot training pipelines have been 'disregarded' for years by the senior leaders with their 70's - 80's thinking. They are directly responsible for dismissing the solutions.

They have failed to understand that the previous system of numerous caribous, RAAF helicopters, draggies, plus 2 FTS/CFS jet ops generated early captains for early commands and experience suited to move up and skipper the bigger / faster metal and so fill all the holes. The system was self-sustaining and could regenerate quickly. Now the helos are gone (we used to have 300 helo pilots all trained on macchi jet, many of who ended up flying fast jets), the remaining caribous will be pushed against the fence (standby for news on that one). Fast jet pilots now have to train on four types rather than the previous three (high costs and additional 6-8 months than in the past to train),ten draggies have been replaced with six Kingairs with more stringent command requirements, and the training jet ops are long gone whilst the PC9 (unpressurised, no radar, no antice, 80s vintage systems) is mainly a powerful low-level aerobat whose $20Mil glass upgrade ($17 Mil spent already) was dumped during 2007 to avoid further cost embarrassment during an election year. Meanwhile the RAAF inventory has moved into glass cockpits, lots of automations and more heavy metal with longer timelines to command. The whole system now does not now produce the numbers of pilots in time nor adequately experienced for the jobs. Now a boggie out of 2FTS course cannot get an operational command on a large automated type during their first or sometimes second tour, and at the moment they can be waiting around for 18 months doing admin until type conversion. All this means the system is no longer self-recovering except over a very long period, and will remain so until these senior leaders wake up.

Effective solutions were analyzed and developed over many years to set up the very numbers and competencies needed. These were presented to CAFAC, but disregarded within minutes on simple whims...preferring to be focused on simple issues that sprang to mind like how long the PC9 would last, and when another bonus could used to temp stayers.

This "share pilots" idea is yet another naive puff of smoke from senior leadership to find a cheap solution without an understanding of complex systemic, industrial and personnel issues. It will not solve the underlying problem that the training and experience-generating pipelines are broken. (so is recruiting by the way)

Endat:ugh:

[Vref+5]

Qantas is a commercially driven organisation, administered by CASA whose primary concern is for the fare paying passenger. Therefore - in line with CASA's mandate, the flight and duty times QANTAS pilots log whilst flying with the RAAF must be taken into account ie they must reduce the their flight and duty times with Qantas.

Therefore do you honestly think in this day and age Qantas will agree to reduce the availability of their pilots?

[Capt Kremin]

They will in a down-turn. When things are going well however they chronically under-man their fleets and won't have any spare pilots available to go to the RAAF.
What could work is having A330 and 737 pilots trained up for surge operations. But even that would take pilots away from the airlines for a certain amount of time during the year to maintain currency in RAAF operations.
The Government would have to fund some sort of pilot surplus in the airlines to allow for this.

[psycho joe]

It's interesting that RAAF pilots are able to fly the unsuspecting public around in Virgin 73's Whilst in RAAF uniforms, yet with the idea of going the other way the Virgin civvie pilots don't rate a mention.

I'm sure the RAAF would appreciate civvie pilots getting around flying fast jets in their funky brown virgin uniforms. :ok:

[Wiley]

This isn’t about some ex-RAAF Qantas pilots flying F18s or F111s. It’s about any and all Qantas 737 pilots flying RAAF 737s and any and all Qantas A330s pilots flying RAAF A330s.

I think anyone with any experience of Canberra, (and to a lesser degree, Russell Hill), can see where this brainstrorm came from. Some bright-eyed Public Serf assistant to the assistant to the minister’s assistant sees that the RAAF is now (or soon will be) operating at least two of (to his/her eyes) exactly the same aircraft types as Qantas, (e.g., A330, B737).

The RAAF is screaming pilot shortage, but Qantas has seven or eight crews per aircraft. So, the bright spark in Canberra I have referred to above says why not use Qantas pilots to fly the RAAF aircraft that are same (or so he/she thinks) as the ones they fly for Qantas every day?

No one wearing a uniform in the corridors of Russell Hill can get the message across to the politicians and their ‘expert’ civilian staffs that there's a huge difference between flying an A300 between Perth and Singapore and flying an A330 tanker on a tactical mission with a brace of F18s, just as there's an equally huge difference in flying a 737 pax flight and a Wedgetail mission. (The VIP operation? Could just possibly be made to work, but would egos allow it? Would Kev and other pollies want any and every mere line pilot in QF to be entrusted with their well-being?)

About the only way I could see it working would be to have the 'captain' of the aircraft a serving RAAF officer, a bit like the RAF used to do on their maritime aircraft, where the TACO (a Nav) was the operational captain and the pilot ‘the commander’ only in aspects associated with flight safety. However, this would almost defeat its own purpose, as you'd still need one or more extra RAAF officers, even if they weren't a pilot or current on type, for each civil crew-operated mission. The RAAF navigator mafia would love it, but I can only imagine some of the 'old school' Skippy captains I know in that situation, and imagine your average QF pilot putting up with the crap the RAAF guys take in their stride on ops, i.e. basic (and I mean basic!) accommodation, roster changes, extended duty periods etc.

[Roller Merlin]

A380-800 driver, you would be correct in that civil pilots could fly the aircraft without problems. Of course the major issue is their legal obligation to also be ordered to go anywhere at anytime, get shot at and shoot back in defence of the state under the defence Act and forget everything about the Civil equivalent aviation laws.

They would have to do all the military operational management stuff that goes with what little flying there is in the military: eg: tactical co-ord with FJ operations, exercise planning, deployments for a month or more, develop SOPs, run and participate in military meetings, be at work for all manner of general duties when not flying, maintain high fitness etc as is done by military pilots.

There are already many ex-RAAF pilots who still reserve back as you indicate (I am one) and units like 76SQN Hawk could not operate without short term assistance. However units like 76SQN run daily flying programs where reservists can plug in and out at will. The increasing problem is to generating long-term reserve pilot opportunities on the heavy metal to do all the operations stuff above......the very reason many left the RAAF in the first place. Long term reservists cost as much as full time permanents...not a bean counting solution. As I said previously, the RAAF training pipelines are fractured the unwise are trying to find cheap solutions without acknowledging the real issues.

[FlexibleResponse]

It is for the same old reason that I left the RAAF so many years ago...

If the Government would pay the RAAF and other military pilots the same as, or better than Qantas pays its pilots, then the military would not be short of pilots.

If you spend billions on military weapons and equipment but only pennies to the men who operate and maintain them (very often under onerous and life-threatening conditions), then you should not be surprised to be out-bid by civil commercial business for the skilled manpower.

But we are now run by Commonwealth and State Governments that are so incompetent that they cannot even maintain a Health system to meet the basic health needs of the population.

So I suspect that based on past performance and current incompetence that nothing is likely to change.

[woodja51]

Why not take it a bit further - give all RAAF pilots QF 'ghost ' seniority numbers when they join the RAAF.?

Paying them the same as QF pilots would certainly go a long way to solve the retention issues.

I don't think that would go down well with the QF lads however.

For the same reasons that I as an ex RAAF 707 QFI with 5000 A330 hours and about 1000 on the 777 ( mostly command time), cannot go straight to the top of the QF pile as a DEC in their system, would seem to be much the same as the RAAF not being keen to take QF guys without any military experience into their fold.

The operation is completely different for all the reason the chaps above me espoused. Let alone the legal issues etc.

Yes it could all be done but outsourcing things to commercial operators has been done before not always with success ( ie the Westralia disaster comes to mind).

As an example, during my first few flights with Ansett we taxied in one way to an apron one afternoon and then on the way out had to taxi another way and back track the runway... when I asked the captain why we just didn't go out the way we had just come in an hour earlier he said it was unlit and therefore not usable. Probably right too...but...... to me as a RAAF pilot I would have just used the lights that the aircraft has fitted... I can't see how any obstacles could have 'magically' appeared in an hour... just to illustrate the difference in operational control that exists between the military and civll ops.

It does take some getting used too - in both directions!

fire away lads!!:O

woodj

[mdt001]

Makes a damn site more sense to me to merge the RAAF with the RFDS.

[Gnadenburg]

As an example, during my first few flights with Ansett we taxied in one way to an apron one afternoon and then on the way out had to taxi another way and back track the runway... when I asked the captain why we just didn't go out the way we had just come in an hour earlier he said it was unlit and therefore not usable. Probably right too...but...... to me as a RAAF pilot I would have just used the lights that the aircraft has fitted... I can't see how any obstacles could have 'magically' appeared in an hour... just to illustrate the difference in operational control that exists between the military and civll ops.

An outstanding example of your tactical flair mate.....

I would suggest the Ansett Captain was using very effective risk assesment- would you risk a 300 to 400 thousand dollar a year job ( in today's dollars ) on an unlit taxiway with a cocky-new co-pilot as support?

A safe and sensible option. :ugh:

Incidentally, there a few Ansett pilots who flew tankers with SAC, as captains, on nuclear standby or sitting in race tracks above the north pole. Well under a thousand hours had them as commanders in a military skills-set they themselves said was unexceptional. And I doubt one of them would be inclined to risk being busted back to an F/O, retrained or whatever; by taxiing down an unlit apron.

There is a can not attitude in Defence. If Australia was ever to go to war, assets such as tankers and AWACs need high numbers of crews- look at USAF Gulf War hours for reservists on transports etc.

Using civilian pilots without military experience ridiculuous- except for VIP op's perhaps.

Maintaining a reserve of crews to quickly bring assets to wartime utilization rates if need be common sense- hundreds of ex-RAAF pilots are current on Airbus or Boeing. How can it not be done economically and with minimal strains on current resources? Attracting guys is easy- pilots are suckers for tax breaks etc.

Having a pool of crews, current on civilian jets used by the RAAF, could without fanfare be bolted on to AWAC & tanker squadrons in time of war.

[Kangaroo Court]

I think we should just put hard points on airliners and be done with it...:}

[tinpis]

a 300 to 400 thousand dollar a year job


Gawd...A Knuck with money...:uhoh:

[Chronic Snoozer]

Why is only QANTAS mentioned?

What about Virgin, Jetstar, or Cathay pilots?

I'm with Flexible Response on this one - pay RAAF pilots a bit more - retention SOLVED. Bunch of bloody tight-arse, tree huggin' pollies still haven't got that through their FICK EDS.

If QANTAS pilots actually want to spend their valuable lifestyle time off in the military instead of with their families then they should do staff work and secondary duties. That way the boggies and junior captains can go out and do the flying they're paid for, and get the experience that is apparently so difficult to achieve.

[Wizofoz]

Why not take it a bit further - give all RAAF pilots QF 'ghost ' seniority numbers when they join the RAAF.?


The problems here are that Qantas is being talked about as if it was still a goverment owned instrument of national policy.

It isn't. It's a publicly listed company whose only responsibility is to make a return to it's shareholders.

Any such scheme would have to be AT LEAST cost neutral to QF.

[Trojan1981]

Long term reservists cost as much as full time permanents...not a bean counting solution.
How do you figure that? I'm not being critical, I'm just curious as to how you came to that conclusion.

While serving with the Army in 2003 I met a C-5 Pilot who, in his day job, was an NYC cop. He was a USAF reservist and was called up on Sept 11 2001 to support MEAO ops and was still going in 2003.
I didn't go into his flying background so I don't know if he ever flew civil a/c but it does beg the question; If the USAF can have reservists, who are not even employed civillian pilots, flying their heavy metal (with the right training of course) why can't the RAAF have employed civillian pilots flying their aircraft as reservists?
It would take further training of course, but surely it is cost effective. It would take a big change in the culture of the ADF to make it work.

[Wiley]

pay RAAF pilots a bit more - retention SOLVEDCan't say I agree with that. Nice as it would be, I'm sure, for the average Service pilot to get more money, the real problem with the RAAF for most people who want to fly aeroplanes rather than be career military officers is the long standing policy of moving people on after a three year posting, all too often into a ground job.

Even if the average squadron pilot could be assured of flying postings for his whole career, (he can't be), in my day, (I'm sure someone will tell us all if it has changed), that career ends at 45 for a GD Flt Lt and 47 for a GD Sqn Ldr, a bit early for the average man/woman with a family to support.

An SD Aircrew mustering, (as was used by the RAF) has been suggested to the powers that be in Canberra every year or two and to date, it has never even looked like being approved. [I](I accept that the reasons they give against the idea have some validity in such a small force as the RAAF: SD aircrew filling half the slots on active squadrons would mean even fewer slots on flying squadrons for GD pilots shinnying up the greasy pole.)

In one of the (predictable) replies to my earlier post, I was reminded of the currently running "Flight Attendant Demoted to First Officer" thread, where the respondent quickly remined me (not incorrectly) how incredibly more experienced the average Qantas FO is than most RAAF VIP pilots.

However, I feel that most if not all pilots who've not flown in the military environment have no idea of the many facets of an average day's operation a Service pilot deals with that even the most experienced civil pilot will never see - even in the more prosiac operations like Transport and Refuelling squadrons.

I mentioned above that I thought that maybe the VIP operation could be handled by civil pilots. I'd have to say that on second thought, I'm not so sure I was right. But perhaps I'm selling the average domestic QF 737 pilot short. Maybe the average Qandom pilot feels he'd have no problem at all being called out to take the PM to JFK, Mosow, Kandahar or pick your exotic airport.

Pieceufpiss, innit?

[Gundog01]

How do you figure that? I'm not being critical, I'm just curious as to how you came to that conclusion.

I think you will find that most long term reservists are on fixed term contracts 6-12 months whatever it is for the job they are employed to do. then you have your part time reservists who are allocated xx number of days per year of service. Example. SQNLDR reservist QFI get paid around $300 tax free per day worked.

I think the bottom line is the ADF needs to make it easier for aircrew to return for reservist work, and make it more appealing for their civilian employees. no need to train civvies to fly mil aircraft.

[Loiter1]

Sigh...at this rate we should rename this thread 'Why RAAF pilots are leaving'.

A sign of any organisations ability to make real, lasting cultural change is the ability to make hard decisions when times are good. (Its easier when its bad, because you are forced to) Air Force HQ has failed this test and will continue to fail it. Binnie will not save you, he is the product of the same system that produced the rest of the system maintainers. The pathetic retention bonus that was thrown at everyone at years start and the dead in the water pilot retention review are clear signs of this.

Remember the good times, there's no point worrying and making yourself upset. If you got out, make the most of your new life. If you didn't and are waiting to leave, don't worry, all recessions end. If you do stay, then maybe, just maybe, you'll have the balls to do what needs to be done.

[framer]

But perhaps I'm selling the average domestic QF 737 pilot short. Maybe the average Qandom pilot feels he'd have no problem at all being called out to take the PM to JFK, Mosow, Kandahar or pick your exotic airport.

I don't fel like I would have any problem doing that...I've never flown a military aircraft and would be interested in what extra things would make it difficult. I am sure there are some things that we as civil pilots simply don't know about. Can you explain the "extras" involved in a scenario like the one you described?

[Lodown]

Pooling pilots:

"Today's Wedgetail services are proudly sponsored by Big Roo Airlines. Unfortunately, it is company policy not to fly in uncontrolled or hostile airspace due to possible commercial retaliation to Big Roo Airlines by non-combatants friendly to our enemy and other legal repercussions, which would distress our shareholders. So, today's planned mission somewhere over the Indian Ocean has been deferred until we have been granted approval from the Big Roo legal team in consultation with government lawyers. For the present time, we will be limiting our operations to friendly skies. So sit back, enjoy the flight and listen to our country's fighter pilots try and find their way around enemy skies by Braille."

or:

"Welcome aboard Mr. Prime Minister. Big Roo Airlines is proud to be your pilot source of choice. We should inform you that Big Roo Airline pilots are currently in an industrial dispute with management over wages and benefits. We realize you have critical affairs of state, but we have been directed to inform you that we are unable to service your aircraft until further notice. If your travel plans are important, we advise you to take a regular airline flight to your destination instead."

Don't know the ins and outs of the VIP Sqdn, but if civvy pilots are flying heads of state, does this mean that the heads of state have to go through the Customs and Immigration gates like everyone else? I would imagine that communications and organizing visits by heads of state goes through military channels. What changes would be necessary for contracted commercial pilots? That's not even considering military and state secrets (if there are any worth keeping). And as for the image...Australia doesn't even have enough pilots in the RAAF to fly the Prime Minister on official business. :rolleyes:

Mr Fitzgibbon said Australia's population was too small to sustain public and private employment needs.


It must have been desperate times indeed before Australia's population exceeded 20 million.

Sounds like the RAAF has the same problem as AsA: short-sighted managers with silver tongues who gave little thought to future staffing issues in the rush to earn a bonus and cut costs. It doesn't say much for the pollies or their staff if they are buying into, and regurgitating, these excuses so readily.

I would guess that Fitzgibbon's suggestion is for previously proposed instructor slots, but if the intention is for operations staff, then I don't know why Fitzgibbon just doesn't come out and say that the RAAF is so short of pilots that hiring mercenaries is a possible option to consider.

[Vorsicht]

Planning the route, organising Dip Clearances, generating your own flightplan, organising your own ground handling, to name just a few that the average airline jock doesn't do. I'm not saying that they wouldn't be able to learn it, but frankly i would suggest that they wouldn't know where to start when the tasking order came across the desk that the the PM needs to go to Israel in 3 days.

But on the other hand, for the mundane domestic VIP stuff, an average airline 737 driver would cope perfectly well with a bit of indoctrination.

V

[framer]

Dip Clearances, generating your own flightplan, organising your own ground handling,
Nah stuff that, I'd collar he nearest LAC and order them to organise the Dip Clearances and make me a drink as well, (white coffe zero thanks), the flight-plan is no worries, I'll do that, ground handling...might have to collar a Sgt for that one. After that that would leave about two days to go to the beach...sweet!

[Fubaar]

in framer, we have here either a very badly misplaced sense of humour or that scariest of all things, a man who doesn't know that he he doesn't know.

I agree that anyone current on a similar type could fly the RAAF aircraft. However, to operate it competently and the way the RAAF would want it to be operated would be another matter altogether.

If it's as Wiley suggests, a money-saving(?) plan to put any QF pilot who's current on type into a RAAF aircraft, it would have to be put in the 'really silly ideas for Defence from politicians' column - unfortunately, already a very long column. If it's for better utilisation of reservists, with experience in the RAAF, it might have some merit.

Why is it that I think Wiley's suggestion might be close to the mark?

[Keg]

Planning the route, organising Dip Clearances, generating your own flightplan, organising your own ground handling, to name just a few that the average airline jock doesn't do.

What the hell are all the lazy OPSOs doing if that is being done by the crew! I thought the mustering was created specifically for that kind of crap. I know one and he keeps banging on about all the important stuff he does and the pilots do bugger all. :E :ok:

[SB7L]

Will never happen!

[Selac66]

Sigh...at this rate we should rename this thread 'Why RAAF pilots are leaving'.

A sign of any organisations ability to make real, lasting cultural change is the ability to make hard decisions when times are good. (Its easier when its bad, because you are forced to) Air Force HQ has failed this test and will continue to fail it. Binnie will not save you, he is the product of the same system that produced the rest of the system maintainers. The pathetic retention bonus that was thrown at everyone at years start and the dead in the water pilot retention review are clear signs of this.

Remember the good times, there's no point worrying and making yourself upset. If you got out, make the most of your new life. If you didn't and are waiting to leave, don't worry, all recessions end. If you do stay, then maybe, just maybe, you'll have the balls to do what needs to be done.

Loiter has it right. The system is broken due to neglect and the current lot are for the status quo and will jump on anyone who has ideas for real change. The underlying principal of RAAF career management remains sound however. Pump 100 pilots through to make 50 SQNLDR QFIs/FCIs/SMEs to make 20 WGCDR COs to make 10 Groupies to make 6 AIRCDREs to make 3 AVMs for 1 CAF. If 20 of the 100 are civilians or reservists, not destined for higher rank, then the CAF gene pool is diluted and SOME positions up the chain end up being manned by people who shouldn't be there and who make decisions which make the retention problem worse. Anyone else know of a few ex RAAF/RAF guys, now in the airlines who would shake up the service and put it back on the straight and narrow through vision accompanied by an ability to work ridiculously hard?

My suggestion is to restore the attractiveness of the position of CO of a flying squadron. Once again make it the dream job for a pilot in the RAAF/RAF (if it wasn't yours then you are part of the 50 - nothing wrong with that btw). Lavish publicity and cred on the flying squadrons and make them where people want to be (not just pilots). Eventually (and this will take time since so much goodwill has been squandered for so long) junior pilots will see it as a credible alternative to the airlines and there will be a draw through effect. You will get a situation where the Pers staff will have a real choice of people to fill positions. i.e. a healthy, competitive system.

Also I would ask why civilian airline guys would want to fly military? Take the reasons gathered and PR the s@#$ out of them.

[framer]

a very badly misplaced sense of humour
ahhh come on Fubaar, lighten up, it may be weak and not very clever but badly misplaced? It's not that serious an issue is it? The day Ausi military guys/gals can't take a bit of ribbing is the day that it really is not worth joining, it was the thing i enjoyed most in my eight years with the RAAF as an Engo. Have a laugh mate. Framer.

[Blogsey]

and SOME positions up the chain end up being manned by people who shouldn't be there

We must make sure that never happens!
:ugh:

[Icarus53]

then the CAF gene pool is diluted and SOME positions up the chain end up being manned by people who shouldn't be there and who make decisions which make the retention problem worse

Not sure if I agree with your maths there - if you need less full time pilots to begin with (and fill the other slots with reservists), then the pool is concentrated. You can be more selective in recruitment and build a stronger pool of candidates for higher rank.

Not that the outcome is different - with due respect to my friends still in, we ex-servies often laugh that the service is the "Best of what's left"!:}

[Trojan1981]

ex-servies often laugh that the service is the "Best of what's left"!:ok:
...and reservists are there to do a job, not because they need one!:}

[abc1]

Typical from the polies. Avoid the real issue,that of investment and re-investment to sustain the long term pool of trained/skilled staff.
Might as well enlist every member of the population to serve once a month at the outposts of freedom(tax free).
Bollox really.

[Selac66]

Icarus,

I agree that if you could identify the 'SQNLDR 50' from the start then the rest of the slots could be filled with line drivers. This is not that easy when you consider that some bograts don't know what they want to do after lunch let alone after their ROSO is up, some die or become similarly mortally challenged, some will make the best CO since Guy Gibson in their own minds (or recruiting's) but can't deliver, some will change their minds. So, by necessity, a larger than necessary pool is thrown into the melting pot of bograthood with the hope that a ruggedly handsome, handlebar mustachioed, fire breathing, lead-from-the-front, benign dictator with a grasp of Equal Employment Opportunity legislation, Commanding Officer emerges from the fray. I have to say that they did and in some cases still do, exist but this mechanism is not in good working order today. Isn't one of the ideas of ADFA to identify this cream of future leaders? Ask those boys today what they're doing when their time is up.

By the way, backhand insults, disguised as banter, directed towards the guys who are still in only depresses the dedicated and makes the d1ckheads look around for who the dead wood could be. i.e. makes the problem worse. It's one thing to be critical but I think the RAAF is worth saving as it has a proud history and an honorable purpose. Any suggestions?

[allthecoolnamesarego]

There is a can not attitude in Defence. If Australia was ever to go to war, assets such as tankers and AWACs need high numbers of crews- look at USAF Gulf War hours for reservists on transports etc.

Gnadenburg, Mate,

Pretty sure we ARE at war - well at least that's what my mates in the Gulf say... and the parents of the dead Aussie soldiers would probably agree. FFS we ARE doing the job now!

[Keg]

allthecool, whilst I don't dispute your notion of the country being at war with the Taliban, I would dispute that it's the type of example that Gnadenburg was talking about.

When we have our fighter force involved in sustained operations against the enemy and the entire of the ADF committed to supporting fighting it- rather than just the various 'elements' that are doing it now- then I'll believe that we're fighting the type of war that Gnadenburg is alluding too. I also suspect that any sustained operations will indicate how poorly we're set up to actually fight that type of conflict.

[Selac66]

There's two different arguments here. One is what to do in a surge - all hands to the pumps - and the second is how to sustain the core capabilities - what has been done in the RAAF for at least the last 36 years. In the first case it is reasonable that a current B737 guy (ex-RAAF) could undertake a differences course and get on with it. The trouble at the moment is the second argument - the supply of the guys who would run all the aspects of the differences course - FLTCDRs, QFIs, COs. The right people don't want to run the show.