Shipping engine

[Lister Noble]

We have bought a documented good used aircraft engine from a private individual in the USA.
Normally if we buy parts,engines etc they are freighted by the commercial organisation we buy from.
In the case of a private transaction we think to use someone like Fedex.
Does anyone have any advice on this subject.
The vendor will pack engine into a rugged case he will make from strong plywood and 4"x2" timber.
The engine will weigh around 200lbs
Thanks
Lister

[IO540]

Lister you have an email.

The best way to ship an engine is to wrap it in plastic and pack it in a cardboard box surrounded by expanding foam. Anybody interested, email me for the details.

I've done it by air freight but the company (CEVA) lost the engine at Heathrow and lost it again at the U.S. end. I got it returned by Fedex but this cost $1500 or so, versus about $500 for the air freight.

The best way is to get the U.S. end to arrange the shipping because it is much cheaper when booked from out there. And I would use Fedex. Avoid TNT because while they quote a good price they use CEVA to do it :) DHL were the most expensive at £1600 each way (250kg).

The problem I see in this case is that unless the seller is reasonably bright he might not know how to pack the engine properly. I find that Americans often have enough trouble even correctly addressing a package to a foreign country - the legacy of having a huge uniform domestic market. But I still think that the foam method is safer because it is harder to do it wrong than packing an engine in a wooden crate, which needs the proper mounting points to be picked up.

[Mark 1]

I recently had a new engine air-freighted using Bax-Global (Schenken).
There was other stuff in the shipment too, but I would estimate door-to-door costs of upto about £300-500 to the UK (plus the VAT of course).

If you don't have an end-user number use HMRC form C100 to avoid the import duty.

[IO540]

How does a C100 avoid import duty?

[airborne_artist]

IO540 - this may help (http://www.bgateway.com/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&site=202&itemId=1080142630)

[IO540]

Very interesting, airborne_artist, thank you. I didn't know one could do duty free imports of parts without an end user certificate!

[Lister Noble]

Thank you airborne and IO.
I have spoken to Fedex and they told me it would be cheaper to go via freight handling agent as they get big discounts.
The engine needs to be flushed or it is classed as dangerous goods
They quoted me £1088 door to door for dangerous goods,less £75 if flushed.
I will now start looking for local agents.
Lister

[Arclite01]

Cub Engine ??

[fernytickles]

L-N,

If you are willing to give the location, there are plenty of American ppruners, who, I'm sure, would be willing to bypass IO540's less than complimentary comments about their fellow countrymen and would be happy to help you locate an agent. Thats assuming google doesn't come up with what you need :)

[Mark 1]

LN,

I recently had 3 crates inc. the engine and coming to about 400kg total air-freighted by Bax for less than the figure Fed-ex have quoted you. You may get a quote nearer to what the agents pay by asking for a pre-payed rate.

Another option is to use someone like Big Misters to combine it with one of their container shipments if you can wait an extra few weeks. They are used to dealing with aircraft and parts.

[stiknruda]

Lister - give John a call at Big Misters - he can probably put you in touch with someone seafreighting an ICAO container with spare space. I had one arrive last month with loads of space and would have only charged you a pint for your crate.


Stik

[Barcli]

I second Bigmisters - used them several times.
Good to hear from you Stik

[Lister Noble]

Yes,it is a Cub engine, Continental A65.
Thanks everyone for all the leads.
Stik,have you any more shipments due soon?
I would have bought you a barrel or two for that!
Lister:)

[IO540]

I do this stuff on an almost daily basis at work, usually with the USA and the Far East, and tear my hair out fairly regularly. My comment on some American companies is not intended to be rude - it is based on reality. I am sure that if we were importing stuff from Mongolia we would see the same or worse problems, but we are not importing stuff from Mongolia.....

It's certainly true that sea freight should be cheapest, but the reality is that air freight is often very close. Don't ask me why. How can a ship be anywhere near a 747 in cost?? Consolidated SF can be very cheap but can take 1-2 months plus the transit time.

And AF is simpler. With SF you need the sender to send you separately (usually by Fedex etc) the original airwaybill, without which you cannot claim the goods when they turn up. With AF the stuff simply turns up....

Unfortunately shipping companies are not the sharpest knives in the drawer and mess up quite often. In the big picture they are fine but they have a habit of messing up when it's least convenient... That's why I would recommend using Fedex or similar and having a drink of something strong before seeing the invoice :)

[Karl Bamforth]

Just a note of caution,

Unless it is to be fitted in an FAA registered aircraft make sure it will be acceptable to CAA etc.

More than one person has imported used aircraft and engines to the UK only to find the CAA refuse a CofA.

[IO540]

An engine supplied with an FAA 8130-3 form should be OK for a privately used G-reg. I think this is fine for any SE plane since a SE plane is highly unlikely to be used for any AOC work.

There is a widely floated suggestion that one should ask the U.S. supplier to write "for export to the UK" in Box 13 of the 8130-3 form. This is believed to lubricate any CAA inspector looking at it later, and is easy to get because it means basically nothing - it is stating only the bleeding obvious!! OTOH CAP562 (see below) suggests that the CAA-FAA treaty makes such a note superfluous.

However, for another $200 or so, you can get the engine accompanied by an 8130-4 which is an Export CofA (a form signed by an FAA DAR) and that is good for anything on G - as far as I've been able to find out. This is true for Class A parts (engines and props). You must get this form with the engine; one cannot get it generated later.

One reference is CAA AN14 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AN14.pdf). Another is CAP562 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP562.PDF)(page 174 mostly I think). Read it as you wish :) Everybody else seems to :)

Interestingly, AN14 dispenses with the often quoted statement that an EASA-1 form is required for any G-reg for any aircraft part. Any traceability document is in fact OK. It is engines and props that are different (potentially). AOC aircraft (hardly applicable to SE) are also said to be more strict but I have not found a clear statement on this yet. Running an AOC plane on mandatory EASA-1 forms must be a maintenance nightmare, not to mention the gravy train for the part vendors who type these forms up from fresh air.

Karl

More than one person has imported used aircraft and engines to the UK only to find the CAA refuse a CofA.

Can you give more details of exactly what happened? An FAA Export CofA is normally done in these cases.

[Karl Bamforth]

IO540,

Your post is pretty much what I was getting at.

I know of at least 3 ppl that imported aircraft without an export CofA. They were refused a CofA by the CAA.

One guy couldn't get an export CofA because the aircraft was damaged, he bought it repaired it IAW the manufaturers MM then applied for a CofA. The CAA refused.
In the end he had to register it with the FAA, get it certified, apply for an export CofA. Then re-apply for a UK CofA.

I think he left it on the FAA register in the end.

Another person imported a homebuilt aircraft from the USA, he was told that unless he could verify the standard of all parts and materials he would have to replace them. I think the aircraft became a toy for the local children.

I am not sure about a second hand engine but would imagine you would have difficulty convincing the surveyor of its airworthiness without an overhaul or export CofA.

[IO540]

I am not sure about a second hand engine but would imagine you would have difficulty convincing the surveyor of its airworthiness without an overhaul or export CofA.That one could be awfully tricky since sending your own engine to the USA means it is secondhand when it comes back here :)

But hey this is GA so there is a story behind that one too. Until some years ago, Continental allegedly didn't have JAR-145 approval for overhauls, although they did have it for new engines. So you could buy a new engine from them but bizzarely you could not send it back them them for an overhaul! So the story goes, anyway... it was reportedly OK on a privately used G-reg.

The problem with this stuff is verifying these stories. The refs I gave are relatively clear and if the CAA refused, one would get a solicitor on the job. CAA inspectors have been known to make up rules on the spot.

I think that if one is on the N-reg, and installs an engine suitable for an N-reg, and then transfers the whole plane to G, that would be OK because you start with an FAA Export CofA done by an FAA DAR, and that CofA obviously covers the entire plane. I haven't been able to verify this, either.... but if true it does defeat various scare stories about fitting parts to an N-reg which might later go onto G.

No wonder parts get fitted (to G-reg) without logbook entries. Makes life so much easier...

Edit: On reading AN14 again, I think Lister Noble ought to get an Export CofA with that engine, or ask the CAA before buying it. However, Sept 08 has passed and it's a different regime now anyway.

[IO540]

This (http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/export_aw_proc/sp_req_import/) is interesting.

[Lister Noble]

Thanks for all the advice and
I have looked at the links but I think this is getting a bit too complicated,( for me.:))
We are importing a used secondhand engine with a current data plate and log book.We are not importing an aeroplane.
The engine will be stripped ,examined and certified OK by a "CAA qualified engineer" then installed in the L4, which is on a Permit to Fly.
If neccessary we will have work done on the engine.
Sorry, I may not be using all the official terms but I'm not an expert.
One of our group imports spares,including engines, for the L5 and 3 Stearmans that reside at our strip ,and he says there will not be a problem.
I will contact HM Customs today to discuss waiver on duty as engine is over 50 yrs old.
Regards:)
Lister

[Lister Noble]

I have spoken to the NIRU who deal with refunds of import duty etc and it looks like we will get some sort of waiver or refund.
They want me to e-mail all the details and will come back with some information re our case.
Thanks again for all your responses.
Lister:)