Can EPIs promises be kept?

[Marooned]

With yet another message from EPI in our private company emails, and leaflets regularly blocking up our FCs, I wonder publicly whether EPI are in for a very rough time. And why such privileged access our personal company data?

Adverts for 60% still appear but I hear not many new takers willing to part with $50K+ for the ride.

If there is a serious reduction in new investors and with property in Dubai and the rest of the world on the way south, what can their model be based on when no one else seems to have one?

[pullup hard]

Although a member, I did not get any email. When was that?
Can you post it on the forum or pm to me?
Highly appreciated, thanks!
puh

[DeweyCheatemAndHowe]

Mine came via a "spam" email in the inbox on the portal. Check to see that you didn't get one of those.

[mensaboy]

I agree with you Marooned, EPI will not be able to achieve it's goals in the next round of offers. But in their defence, they never promised anything. I believe the operative word was ''Projected'' returns. There never was a guarantee even though many people viewed it as such, due to EPI's past successes.

Huge interest in the last offerings, and basically zero interest in the latest. That says alot.

[ruserious]

And for what it's worth I resent EPI hijacking our pilot club and using it as a sales vehicle

[Wiley]

Firstly, I ned to say I'm not an investor (or director or employee) of EPI, so hopefully, my comments to follow could be said to be disinterested (in the real meaning of the word).

So tell me, ruserious, are you as offended drinking and eating the free booze and nibblies (to say nothing of the free venue) that EPI supplys for the EPC STARS/SIDS nights?

[clear to land]

Well said Wiley!. If they make an effort to organise and FINANCE such events, then they deserve their airtime! If you have a problem with this then the solution is simple, DON'T GO. All sponsors publicise, that is the point of sponsorship.:ok:

[mensaboy]

Marooned, a few months back you predicted the bubble bursting in Dubai. I was not in total agreement with you at the time, but I must admit, you were spot on.

It remains to be seen how bad things will get here. But I still believe Dubai is the place to be... provided you did not get caught up in the property hype and are still holding investment property. In other words, if a person has not over-extended himself, has little or no debt, then this financial tsunami might in fact be a benefit in the long term.

I suspect you are correct about EPI too. It's a shame though, because I think it is one of the only reputable and well run property investment companies in Dubai. I hope they can ride out the storm and provide some returns for their investors.

[ruserious]

So tell me, ruserious, are you as offended drinking and eating the free booze and nibblies (to say nothing of the free venue) that EPI supplys for the EPC STARS/SIDS nights?

Well said Wiley!. If they make an effort to organise and FINANCE such events, then they deserve their airtime! If you have a problem with this then the solution is simple, DON'T GO. All sponsors publicise, that is the point of sponsorship.

I don't go, I have never sampled a lump of EPI cheese or ANY of their benefits, My choice. Like all things in Dubai, the EPC has decided to take EPI's sponsorship money and if I don't like it I can leave :}

My problem is that the EPC is by default supporting and advocating EPI's financial services, if it goes tits up, then there is a good case for litigation against the EPC. Not to mention BC's position in the EPC hierarchy, conflict of interest, noooo way.

So be happy, have your free lunches and I will avoid as usual.

[checcker10]

Free booze and food. Some of you fellas need to get out.Couldn't even catch a gift horse let alone look it in the mouth!!!
CHILL OUT.....

[a380megacamel]

checcker10
When you go on holiday do you also go to the free booze and food evenings given by Timeshare Salesmen? Nothing is free my friend. EPI like the timeshare salesmen entice you with a free evening so they can ram their product down your throat. I too am fed up with the EPI involvement in our club.

I think we should also be concerned that they bought the company that managed the Pilots Club. EPI efectivly manages the EPC and have access to the member database - hence all the spam.

Time to set up the independant DUBAI PILOTS CLUB

[helios737]

Before all you posters get carried away and start badmouthing EPI and what it can or can not do, you should get your facts straight.

Most if not all real estate companies in Dubai are heavily leveraged and are getting caught up in this credit freeze.

EPI has over 50 million dollars in cash and are now sitting back waiting for the other shoe to drop and will be picking up prime commercial real estate for heavy discounts in Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

Throw in long term renters and you have the makings for a profitable venture.

Give the EPI boys some credit first.

Just my opinion,
H

[wizard1]

I agree with the above comments regarding the cash pile but as an investor I am starting to have issues with the endless sponsorships etc etc which are essentially draining the pool (boats,schools, EPC etc etc). It is not for me to say how to run their business and I sincerely hope that the summers offering produces a return however it gives me cause for concern. I wonder, since property has not actually been bought, whether there is an out. Doubt it some how. Hard to see why anyone would risk it on the latest offerings. (hint - buy gold instead - check the front page of the Daily Telegraph today)

I suspect some questions will be asked at the next "äppreciate evening"

I also have some issues with the EPC group email. For me its crossing the line a bit. I'm okay with advertising on the web page, okay with sids and stars (i don't have to go if I don't like it) but I kinda feel that my personal email address is off limits or at least I should be able to choose. Now I know we all ge a lot of spam but this is a bit different and I dont remember agreeing to this when I joined EPC. Maybe I forgot and there was a box I ticked. Anyone else feel the same way?

[Marooned]

Not badmouthing just posting some concerns about what I believe are exaggerated returns in a very unpredictable market based on our hard earned cash.

Have they actually got $50 million in cash waiting to invest? This is the right time to look very, very carefully at the finances and not the assurances and slick marketing packages presented after you had a few of the 'free' drinks.

If and when we can be certain that all the money is there where will you get a 60% return in 3 years? Even discounted property will have to have realistic values and it will be no where near this figure. The market has slumped and almost stopped... so you buy at a discount and then what?

Any investments have to be viewed in the longer term, greater than 3 years. It takes nearly 2 years to get into recession and 6-8 years to get out.

[halas]

Couldn't agree more.

Just to play devils advocate...

What if property is bought at discount prices, and then the discounting continues and then some?

With the retraction of business activity, what's to say the import of expats dries up (or indeed goes into export) and there are not that many "long-term" renters, or not willing to pay the requested level of rent?

I am aware that EPI invest in many regions other than Dubai. But every region in the world is going to feel the full force of what is the "Katrina" of finances.

And now Dubai Inc. is disclosing that it's debt is greater than a 140% of GDP.

That is a lot of levereging!

This also happens to expose the real values of what has been a speculative driven property market. No wonder the big develepers are uniting to bunker-down.

Another problem that l have noticed for quite a few years now, is that this market, in Dubai, does not like second hand products. That includes real estate.

Think about it.

halas

[kingpost]

Out of al the investment groups EPI have to be the most stable.

I feel sorry for the chaps who went into the deal that guaranteed 30% in six months, and gave you a post dated cheque. My guess is that that cheque will bounce higher than you will when you find out that there's nothing there!!

We wait until Feb to see what happens - how can any business guarantee 30% in six months. When it's too good to be true, it normally is!!

[icarus sun]

Marooned, Sad to say but you are totally correct. It is going to take a long time to exit this downturn. It may turn out to be the worst ever in history. Investing in anything at present is very very risky.

[wizard1]

reference if its too good to be true it probably is - anyone get any money back from F1 ?

[typhoonpilot]

Investing in anything at present is very very risky.


Put options and bear funds are doing pretty well :sad:


TP

[2024bus]

The immature rhetoric of this forum remains questionable. This post is not intended to applaud nor impugn EPI, but question your ethics.

1. You castigate people and organizations whether it’s appropriate or not?

2. The oratory is at best childish, at worst insulting and defamatory.

3. Did anyone post that EPI has provided significant donations to the Families of Pilots who were killed in tragic accidents or other charitable donations such as the Cancer Society to name a few?

4. You questions EPI’s ability to return even a modicum of return in spite of past performance. Do you challenge the Managers of your Provident Fund who have barely performed even in buoyant markets? And this is from International multi-billion dollar Fund Managers? Maybe EPI should have a Fund available within the EK Provident Fund. I would suggest EPI couldn’t do any worse than what has been witnessed to date!

5. You complain about Flyers in your Mailbox. Many companies promote via Direct Mail. It’s hardly worth getting distressed about?

6. You complain about Free Food and Booze at a function hosted by EPI for both joining and leaving crew. Man get a life!! You should be proud that EPI has gone to the trouble to host SIDS and STARS Events. I don’t see EK lining up to support the Pilot Community through the EPC?

7. Do you question the unrealistic promises of guaranteed high returns via post dated cheques?

8. The list goes on!

Your general psyche is without a doubt the most superfluous of any professional community. You wonder why you’re consistently challenged by Airline Management?!
:rolleyes:

[Von Richtofen]

I agree 100% on the hijack... let's stop this from happening.

[ferris]

Your general psyche is without a doubt the most superfluous of any professional community. Whilst your post gives pause for thought, 2024, it loses some effect when you overstretch and write sentences without meaning.

As the title question is posed about EPI, why wouldnt EPI have the right to respond here? (minus the ad). There must be others out there who are in a conundrum about savings and investing atm. All input on the subject is interesting.

[2024bus]

Ferris. You point is valid. My intention was to question posters when typically lambasting individuals or companies without also applying credit where credit is due.

Of course any genuine information is appreciated

[Marooned]

2024: I don't see any immaturity in the posts generated and I don't believe it is a question of ethics just a question of concern.

1. No one has been castigated and as a company offering financial services it is entirely appropriate to question its strategy especially in the light of recent events.

2. No insults and no one has been defamed by any posts.

3. Not really an argument, EPI is not a charity and is primarily making money for itself. I give to charity but choose to do it privately.

4. Yes I challenge managers of the provident fund for past and current diabolical performance of their funds but I have NO choice except to choose to invest where I can and as little as I can. EPI has not done any worse than the provident fund but the questions remain valid about its future.

5. Mailbox and my private/personal company email.

6. Yes EK do not provide squat but please whilst the SIDs and STARs is much appreciated by some you have to admit that again it is not for purely selfless reasons as it also provides a chance for direct marketing.

7. Yes.

8. ....

I do concede that EPI never promised 60% returns but if the basis of this return is on past performance then that is the same as 'my house has gone up 60% in the last few years and it will continue to do so'... it won't, it's going down.

[Desert Whine]

You complain about Free Food and Booze at a function hosted by EPI for both joining and leaving crew. Man get a life!! You should be proud that EPI has gone to the trouble to host SIDS and STARS Events. I don’t see EK lining up to support the Pilot Community through the EPC?


Proud? That's a little over the top. Are you also proud of the other sponsors of the EPC?

SIDs/STARs is purely and simply a marketing opportunity in a market in which the directors of EPI, as individuals, happen to be intimately and professionally entangled. Marketing is one thing; as you point out it happens. Having spoken to a few of them, the worrying thing is that some of the new pilots seem to end up with the impression that the EPC and EPI are somehow one and the same; an impression which EPI doesn't seem in any hurry to dispel.

The marketing aside, the evenings are always a good chance to catch up with old friends and meet some new people. Yes, the free beer is always enjoyed.

Well said Wiley!. If they make an effort to organise and FINANCE such events, then they deserve their airtime!

No one's denying them their right to paid-up airtime. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the SIDs/STARs concept taking place (for a short time) before BC came on board the committee? Regardless, I believe the EPC is relatively flush. Maybe these nights could be funded, or even merely heavily-subsidised, without the EPI hawking their wares to their fellow pilots and bringing a mercenary air of commercialism to an EPC function.

I wonder if BC (no disrespect) would run for committee re-election if this idea was adopted.

There was some pretty hard selling at the last night out a few weeks ago. The money over the bar seems to be directly proportional to the amount of new meat/opportunity attending the event.

Down the track a little, it'll be interesting to watch how things pan out at the workplace (EK) if and when the arse drops right out of all the EPI invested world.

As for the investments, I've looked at the numbers on a couple of the previous issues and found them and the terminology somewhat misleading, until the fine print is examined. That and the delays in pay-out, as well as buy-in/cash-in timings lend a different angle to the defined investment period and true percentage returns.

Writing a "30% in three years" message and insinuating this will be your return is a form of market advertising which is not new. Putting this message out to your own work colleagues, though, is something I find quite hard to get my head around.


8. The list goes on!


People often say that when their list has, in fact, come to an end.

[BCC]

Hi Again

Some facts around Sids and Stars and other matters raised.

Our colleagues were leaving UAE, and we missed the chance to properly farewell them so I put this as a bright ideas suggestion in 2004, it was not adopted.

I took the concept to the EPC in 2007, it was fully funded by epi from the beginning, justified as part of the marketing budget

For 10 years in Australia I helped pilots in a voluntary capacity. I stood for election on the EPC committee so I could continue that work and help this great organization with what skills I can offer.

In 2003 we formed epi aiming to set the standard for ethical and professional business conduct whilst exceeding benchmark returns. Our report card shows we formed a DIFC company (epic) and doubled returns on all completed projects.

From the beginning we invested our profits in a world class team and structure aiming to achieve best possible outcome for our collective investment dollar

This market offers great opportunity, the bottom is unpredictable, the epic investment team will selectively buy in and is not tied to any developer.

On a personal note I continue to offer my time at my home to brief pilots on the management model and help them with upgrade, call me when you approach yours, I have been doing this since I became a TRE in 2001.

I have shared this personal information to help those understand the true intent

[fatigueflyer]

Can't understand that EPI has the big brass balls to continue looking for new investors when they have not even come through with their first investment project. Many EPI investors are still waiting for their final payout promised to them and still nothing! Just a bit of common sense advise to EPI.....if you want people to part with further cash for future projects, maybe you should at least have the first project completed and dividends paid out in full and prove that joining your ventures is indeed a good choice made. They have given past investors no confidence at all!! :ugh:

[wizard1]

I got paid the final ammount for the DOS

[fatigueflyer]

What about Boronia and Willy Bay projects? Both projects have gone past their completion, with Boronia running over a year behind (1 yr 3 mths to be exact!!). Not many happy campers out there but still the EPI spin doctors march on. Sad really. I do feel for those still owed money and wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

[woodja51]

I got my DOS payouts too...

I am equally sympathetic to both the opposing points of view about the pro's and cons of EPI/EPC relationships.

It may appear a little too incestuous ( someone fix my spelling) but generally I think that what EPi do is acceptable. I like free( well sort of ) beer... and can listen to a spiel for a few minutes to pay for it!

I also agree that not everyone is satisfied with the results of some of the other projects, but given the global circumstances perhaps that is not surprising.

The proof will be in how EPi manage the next year or so with the UAE syndicate which is now running... they seem to be sitting back a little until some good deals come up at the right price which seems prudent.

Who knows.... I wanted to buy gold with my provident fund but apparently that 'ancient dinosaur ' of investment is not available under the A or B fund...apart from the fact that in most currencies it is better than 30% up for the year...

nooooooo.... you have to invest in the crap that Watson Wyatt/Fidelity or the other folks in charge tell you is a 'good ' investment... thanks very much.. funds stands at same point it was 12 months ago.... after a years contributions!

So really what is a worse financial option ??? there are lots out there very few seem to be safe at the moment!!!

woodj

[BCC]

Dear Fellow Ppruners

I would like to offer the following background information on Sids and Stars, EPC involvement, epi, and epic..

SIDS and STARS (welcome and Farewell evening for EPC members) and EPC involvement

For many years our fellow EPC members left the UAE without the members getting a chance to have a proper farewell

Newcomers to EPC arrived and we had little chance to say hello
In 2004 I suggested the Sids and Stars as a bright idea, unfortunately it was not accepted.
in 2007 I took the Sids and Stars concept to the EPC, it was fully funded by epi from the beginning, justified as part of the marketing budget
In the past I spent my free time helping pilots as an office holder with other pilot organizations
In 2007 I stood for election on the EPC committee to continue the voluntary work.
EPI/EPIC time lines etc


Average fund time line 3 years, two completed in 18 months.
Two are running longer, in accordance with partnership agreement and are projecting returns in excess of benchmark.
Track record- Formed a DIFC regulated company - epic investments, doubled projected returns on all completed projects, capital raised $100M, +$250M of projects
Epi do not guarantee results or deliver post dated cheques.
epic investments fully complies with DFSA regulations
Employees and shareholders have invested in every fund (total $3M USD) paying the same fees and receiving the same investor rewards
As Warren Buffet says
“Occasional outbreaks of those two super-contagious diseases, fear and greed, will forever occur in the investment community. The timing of these epidemics is equally unpredictable, both as to duration and degree. Therefore we never try to anticipate the arrival or departure of either. We simply attempt to be fearful when others are greedy and to be greedy only when others are fearful
The fund has cash reserves of more than $40M USD, and two new funds have now opened.
It’s a time to be greedy in the market and start buying now, as the bottom of the property market, Abu Dhabi and Sydney's in particular, is not predictable.
On a personal note I continue to offer my time at my home to brief groups of pilots on the management model and LOS for upgrade.
I have been doing this since I became a TRE over 6 years ago, before epi started.

Please contact me if I can be of further assistance

Thanks

[Stockpicker]

Can I just check a couple of points?

EPI has over 50 million dollars in cash - so why are they asking for more? This isn't to sound dog in the manger - that is respectable capital, and ample to realise the current opportunity you have described. It may well not be to provide funding to repay investors in the previous programme, but there is no document anywhere to evidence any of the cashflows that are being talked about.

Second question - in what jurisdiction is epi regulated? I know it can't be in the UK because the ad doesn't carry any of the required health warnings (the value of your investment may fall and you may not recover the amount invested, etc etc). The US is even more stringent, so I shouldn't think it's there either.

Folk here are right to be cautious - part of the reason the world's markets are in the difficulties we now face is that individuals did not research the products as fully as they should have. Let's have a full disclosure of the status of the entity being proposed, and take it from there.

Sorry - edited to add that I have just spotted the reference to "DFSA" which must be Dubai?

[fatigueflyer]

The EPI model for investments in Oz are set up in the B.V.I.
Disclosure, there is none... You forward your cash and the rest is up to luck.

The time frame and returns quoted on their web site is not true, and always sounds very positive!! The syndicate duration (investment period) is far longer than often quoted and the dividends not what has been quoted to date. They just change the returns whenever delays occur.
Speak to previous investors (there are a quite a few) about their first (showcase?) project in WA, Australia. Long long delays and very little disclosure. They had many opportunities to expediate the project prior to the downturn so if they try to tell you about market forces downunder, its a cover up. Good luck to those trying to get their hard earned invested money back and better luck with getting any info out of them especially from the spin doctor team.

[fliion]

C'mon EPI. The market is speaking. Time for transparency.

In light of recent events resulting in some of the most sophisticated investors in the world losing large amounts of cash - the period of getting away with not releasing data is well and truly over.

The longer EPI continues this strategy of opaqueness - the more investors will get concerned.

Open the books, tell the syndicate exactly whats going on and establish credibility in a choppy financial environment...investors have a fundamental RIGHT to know.

By denying them...you are raising serious concerns.

So why deny them?

f

[Dubai Desert Angel]

Absolutely.
Enough of been kept in the dark, while our money is played with. Reasonable questions have not been answered.

[woodja51]

Guys, I like you share concerns about the current world situation but as a previous DOSS investor the returns were better than advertised and they have paid back some of the funds to me as rebates etc.

I chose to roll the money into the Abu Dhabi office syndicate and although I could probably do better at least at the moment sending that money back to OZ, my questions about what they are doing have generally been answered.

such as - the fact that they have not yet leapt into the Abu Dhabi market and are in negotiations on several projects ... I believe that as this is commercially sensitive that is why they are being a little coy.

Look , I could be wrong and this could all end in another made off scheme but I suspect that it is unlikely.

Yes I have heard other earlier investors a little disgruntled with the Ozzi stuff - but really any investigation might have revealed that the WA market was topping out .. and I have made lots from the Perth market and was always cautious about the timing... might get worse before it get better too...

so if you really have concerns go and see Brett or Keith and ASK!

[fliion]

There is a huge conflict of interest when it comes to asking tough questions to at least one of the Principals you have mentioned with the other one being his partner.

Consider a junior pilot having a tough conversation with a senior TRE in a politically charged airline....the airline that lives and breathes the theory of OIC.

Asking the Principals involved will not alleviate the concern. The lessons learned from the past illustrate that the full disclosure of the books and where the funds (the money which BELONGS to the syndicate) are allocated - is the only way to stop what has become a troubling rumour mill when it comes to EPI.

While there is no indication thus far that anything untoward has occurred why not send the investors an audited package of exactly what the situation is.

This is a tough time for everyboby and I suspect that there would be a reasonable understanding from the syndicate should the profitibility of the projects not meet expectations - fair enough, thats the way of investing. BUT when it comes to the exact allocation of specific funds - there should never be anything to hide, EVER.

Ipso facto, a full declaration of funds to the syndicate. Where it has gone, what is left and future plans.

In todays environment there are no excuses....the creation of any will raise increasingly serious concerns.

f.

[BCC]

Transparency

epi have sort regulation at considerable expense and has formed epic investments a fully regulated licensed investment company in The Dubai International Financial Centre (DIFC). Not a single competitor of ours has opened themselves to regulation and transparency at this level, although some have created an illusion that they have done so. Check the DFSA list for verification. In fact it would be even a reasonable assumption to suggest that competitors of epi may in fact be posting on this thread?

Guarantees and Promises

No promises have ever made about our investments from epi, yet epi always gives a full risk assessment prepared by industry specialists in our information Memorandums to help investors decide. Epi then rate the risk accordingly.

Some competitors make promises of guaranteed returns and post dated cheques. In a regulated environment they would be not permitted to do so. Some are operating ponzi like schemes and investors may potentially lose all their money. The Authorities intend to eradicate these activities.

Reporting

All epi syndicates have a reporting line to investors with 4 public meetings a year, regular newsletters and updates. We have taken on board comments on how to further improve the line of reporting and are doing so.

Track Record and Performance of Syndicates , Investment Advisors

Astute investors take advantage of the real estate cycle. That sometimes means selling early (as in the case of Dubai Office Syndicate 60.66% return) or holding for a better projected return. It is for this reason that some syndicates run longer than projected.

The first epi syndicate Boronia has already returned the majority of capital and is projected to exceed benchmark returns, but is running longer because of the reason stated above. This decision has been made by our investment committee in consultation with the developer.

The epi Group investment committee comprise professionals of the highest caliber and are employed by epi or appointed to the board of epic investments. They include:
· The former head of investment banking for HSBC Middle East
· The current head of private bank of one of Middle east’s largest banks
· 3 Certified Practicing Accountants
· The former founding director of one of Australia’s largest Real Estate companies.

We choose not to publically reveal all information, certainly not in this forum, as some competitors operate unethically in gathering or fishing for information. Some have tried to copy our model but without a professional full time team.

Epi invite you to come to the offices at The Fairmont Dubai and discuss why epi is confident of future success. We have nearly 600 investors and have over USD $100M in funds under management and USD $250M of property under management.

One poster asked why epi was seeking to raise more than 50 million? This money belongs to a fund and not epi. As a professional investment company epi will continually seek to raise capital to strategically invest in a range of investments.

Further to the above comment, epi is currently raising capital for new investments in Australia and Abu Dhabi where superb opportunities exist. The projected return for Abu Dhabi is 15% per annum over three years and the Australian opportunity is 20%. We have secured key opportunities for investors and they will be the first to know.

[40&80]

If it looks walks and talks like a PONZI scheme then maybe it is?

[wizard1]

I believe BC and KT to be trustworthy guys. I dont think EPI is a scam. Its a risk that we all took with our eyes open.

[SOPS]

anyone else get a phone call early this morning asking if you want to invest? They have never rung me before and I am not an investor with them. Are they getting a little desperate?:confused:

[Marooned]

Many have lost or are writing off investments whilst one of the founders has bought himself an expensive new car and house and even has the gall to brag about it... At least one made some money out of it. :mad:

Still think they were trustworthy?

[Dune]

UPP I (UAE Property Partnership I) audited account information is due 31 Mar 2010 as per their blatant disregard of the contractual terms of the contract.

This is not the way it should have been legally (those who are shareholders should carefully read their contracts) but they arbitrarily moved the audit dates (contrary to the written contract) and irrespective of my ongoing objections.

I am a firm believer EPI International feed off the assumption they have very few EPI investors who have any business and/or contractual law knowledge. As such, they have benefited upon investors who are of 2 types:

-those who invested in the "good times" and have no clue as to where the market is currently at or where it is going, and

-those who do not "drink the kool-aid" but have a limited business background to rely upon to be critical of management decisions.

When times were good they were all over the pilots (including Ppune) but when times are more challenging they are very hesitant to provide concrete answers to my/other shareholders questions. I think this is a real indication of the depth of the management within EPI.

I am unwilling to discuss specific EPI issues on this forum as this is not an investment website.

If any of you are EPI investors and would like a forum to discuss these issues, there is one at the following:

EPIinfo.freeforums.org • Index page (http://epiinfo.freeforums.org)