Scottish Control

[daynehold]

Sorry to show my ignorance (question probably posed previously) but does anyone know when the move to the new ATCC is scheduled to take place. I understand that the sub centre currently located at Manchester is due to be incorporated into the new facility - will the call sign still be "Manchester Control" or will pilots be calling Scotish as they climb out south over Cheshire?

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

I wouldn't think the R/T callsign will be affected by the geographical location of the unit, otherwise there would be a "Swanwick Director" for EGLL, or maybe even a "Starbucks Control" !! :)

[BDiONU]

There will be a phased transition, the dates currently being worked to (not set in stone except MACC) are the military going live in November 2009, ScACC in December and MACC in January 2010.
The callsign of Prestwick Centre is under discussion and will be subject to approval by DAP.

BD

[Dee Mac]

No discussion, the New Scottish Centre will have two callsigns. Those sectors currently run by Manchester will have the callsign "Manchester Control", the sectors currently run by Scottish will have the callsign "Scottish Control". Nobody is going to alter that, I'm not using a different callsign to placate the Manch controllers, and the Manch guys aren't stupid such that using some generic w*nky callsign is going to make the move any easier.

And that's from the horses mouth, not it's arse.

PS VOTE NO

[BDiONU]

No discussion, the New Scottish Centre will have two callsigns. Those sectors currently run by Manchester will have the callsign "Manchester Control", the sectors currently run by Scottish will have the callsign "Scottish Control". Nobody is going to alter that,
:rolleyes: Prestwick Centre will have a single callsign, mandated by law.

BD

[Lurking123]

.... the military going live in November 2009...

Is that the new, abridged version of the military? ;)

[BDiONU]

Is that the new, abridged version of the military? ;)
Unless MoD change their minds again ;)

BD

[Lurking123]

I was led to believe it was NATS, this time. Maybe they should just leave everything as it is. :ok:

[Spitoon]

Prestwick Centre will have a single callsign, mandated by law.Which law would that be?

[throw a dyce]

Anglia Radar,done from Aberdeen has the callsign Anglia Radar.All other sectors done from Aberdeen have separate callsigns.Haven't heard of this law either.

[wiccan]

"Manchester Radar" in a Scots accent is going to sound fantastic.....

[Take up the Hold]

There will be only one callsign at PC. What it will be I don't know but, once cross training starts you cannot have one quarter of the Ops Room (layout not size) calling themselves something different.

TUTH

[Spitoon]

But maybe better than a Mancunian accent?

But I guess it's hard to tell - last time I saw Manch there weren't many Mancunians there!

[landedoutagain]

manchester radar will still be in manchester tho! :ok:

Doncaster radar is (was?) done from liverpool!

[ZOOKER]

"Which law would that be"?

The law according to BDiONU, which is often total horsesh1t, as frequent readers of these fora will already be aware.

STANSTED RADAR, - at Swanwick.
GATWICK RADAR, - at Swanwick.
LUTON RADAR, - at Swanwick.
HEATHROW DIRECTOR, - at Swanwick.
LONDON CONTROL, at, wait for it....Swanwick.
THAMES RADAR, - at Tower Bridge?.....Nope! - Swanwick, (Yawn).
LIVERPOOL RADAR, AND, DONCASTER RADAR - at John Lennon. (No, I don't understand that either)!
:}:}:}
TUTH - "You cannot have one quarter of the ops room calling themselves something different". Oh yes you can! :E

[ZOOKER]

Not forgetting:-
PENNINE RADAR.
and of course, LIVERPOOL RADAR, both of which, I believe, once shared the same ops room as MANCHESTER CONTROL.

[Lurking123]

Sorry to pee on your corn flakes chaps, but there is something written in one of those mindless ICAO docs that tries to standardise ATCC callsigns. I'm not convinced it is enshrined in UK law but, assuming the UK hasn't filed a difference, I guess there will be a common name. Certainly the mil adopted "London Mil" when Swanwick/LATCC(Mil) merged.

Pennine Radar, what's that? I thought you lot off-loaded that particular task to LATCC(Mil) a few years back.

[BDiONU]

Which law would that be?

NATS apply to the Directorate of Airspace Policy for a unit callsign and DAP decides on what the unit callsign may be. ATSSD licences the unit to provide an ATC service using the callsign which they're authorised to use. The law to which I'm refering is the licence.

BD

[BDiONU]

Anglia Radar,done from Aberdeen has the callsign Anglia Radar.All other sectors done from Aberdeen have separate callsigns.Haven't heard of this law either.
Each of those unit tasks has a separate licence. Prestwick Centre will have a single licence for the unit.

BD

[landedoutagain]

well, if its based on what the licence says, I hope that the guys at manch get a big payrise if they have to change their licences to scottish control. After all, scotland is much bigger than manchester....! :}

[ZOOKER]

"Prestwick Centre will have a single licence for the unit".
What, including the 'Oceanic' bit, called Shanwick? :E

[fisbangwollop]

A competition will be run shortly in the company glossy mag, "Airway" or whetever they call it now to come up with a new callsign.....the winning vote will recieve an all expenses trip to Wonderwest world Ayr , or is it called Craig Tara now?.....the runner up will recieve 2 weeks in the Bahamas in the company of Mr Barron!!....

My vote is for Redbrae Contol.:ok:

[Foondoot]

The callsign of Prestwick Centre is under discussion and will be subject to approval by DAP.

Is there not a different and unassociated unit that already uses that prefix? What a strange idea.

[Spitoon]

NATS apply to the Directorate of Airspace Policy for a unit callsign and DAP decides on what the unit callsign may be. ATSSD licences the unit to provide an ATC service using the callsign which they're authorised to use. The law to which I'm refering is the licence.Ahhh, let's look at this, bit by bit. I always thought that and applicant wishing to establish an Aeronautical Ground Station proposed the callsign to be used. The CAA/DAP assesses whether it is appropriate and in accordance with ICAO SARPs and, if it is, will accept the use of that callsign in association with the radio station. As I understand it, CAA/DAP does not simply decide what the station callsign will be. This process seems to be consistent with the text on the relevant application form - Form SRG 1417.

When you say that CAA/SRG/ATSD licences the unit to provide a service are you talking about the approval to provide an air traffic service issued under the provisions of Article 100 of the ANO? Or perhaps you mean the approval to operate the equipment issued under the provisions of Article 124 of the ANO? Or maybe even the radio station licence which is not issued by the CAA but rather by Ofcom? None of which really are 'law' - I suspect what you mean is that the station operator must comply with the conditions of the licence or approval related to the operation of the equipment.

I have to say that I have personally seen dozens of ATC units which use a number of different callsigns, all from the same facility too. They're called aerodromes. Why, I've even sat next to another controller, as close as I am to this computer, and used a different callsign to my colleague - don't push me too much on the details but I think my callsign ended with 'Ground' and my colleague's with 'Tower'. My, when I think back, those were confusing days - having to remember which callsign to useand when. Mind you, I guess it must be OK because one of those mindless ICAO docs to which Lurking, one of your colleague I would have to guess, refers seems to be written in such a way as to mean that callsigns reflect the unit or service being provided. It's Annex 10 Vol 2 para 5.2.1.7.1 if you want to look it up.

So, I'm afraid I'm still a bit puzzled by this law you mentioned.....

[joe99]

As it looks like Oceanic will be the inaugural users of npc/pc/new prestwick/npwick/new shanwick shouldn't we just stick with that. After all, whats in a name?:D

[Foondoot]

What was wrong with McNERC?

[BDiONU]

Spitoon Your post encapsulates what I was trying to say in my clumsy way "what you mean is that the station operator must comply with the conditions of the licence or approval related to the operation of the equipment."
DAP don't allocate the callsign but can refuse to allow the use of a proposal, as in the case of TC moving South from WD.

BD

[Lurking123]

Did DAP get involved in the Swanwick Watch re-brandings then, or was that just an internal willy wave? :)

[landedoutagain]

have heard a rumour that the NPC 'super' watches will not be colours like swanwick, but names based on tartans.... :}

[Track Jitter]

The Ocean and the Mil will go across at the same time, Nov 09. That is the latest plan, no doubt subject to change!

[eastern wiseguy]

but names based on tartans


What...Black watch then....




hat coat sporran.......

[ZOOKER]

landedout,
Apparently, they will not be called watches. To facilitate the integration of the folk from Manchester, the watches will become 'Clans'. :}:}:}

[Lurking123]

Will there be language training?

[Vote NO]

Apparently no one is going to Scottish from Manch, so it will still be called Scottish :}

[ZOOKER]

Lurking,
Almost certainly. Key elements of the foundation course will include:-

See you (Jimmy).
The correct pronunciation of Spidean a'Choire Leith. :uhoh:
The Noo.
"And are there not two G's in Bugger Off"?
Will ye no come back again?
HOOTS MON, There's a moose, loose, aboot this hoose. (Apologies to Lord Rockingham's XI).
"Afore ye go" :ok:
The ICAO definition of a Tappet Hen.
Correct usage of the words Corstorphine and Cowcaddens.
HOOTS MON, there's juice, loose, aboot this hoose. (Apologies to Maynard's Wine Gums).
A short essay question on Tannochbrae.
And of course, the exact meaning of the often heard phraseology:-
"Robbie, there's been another murrrrder". :E

[throw a dyce]

Lurking,
I think you need to look at this...Parliamo Scots? (http://www.rampantscotland.com/parliamo)

[Vote NO]

Essential reading for any potential immigrant from Manchester to Scotland

Great Scottish Inventions, which include The Bank Of England and radar :E

SCOTLAND'S INVENTIONS (http://www.magicdragon.com/Wallace/thingscot.html)

And

Scotland was a completely separated land mass from England in the days of Pangaea. They collided millions of years ago, and stuck together ever since, but their geological composition is totally different :eek:

[Jumbo Driver]

How about "Preston Airways" ...


JD
;)

[Vote NO]

Those were the days!!!:ok:

[chiglet]

How's aboot...PATCRU...Prestwick Air Traffic Control Radar Unit...:ok:

[Vote NO]

Rumour has it that "Manchester Control" will be the chosen callsign :} . This way management can trick the Manch guys into thinking they are still in Manchester, and also prevent them throwing the toys out of the pram when they eventually move up :E

[A I]

How about "Gailes Radar"?

[FinDir]

It would make for an easier transition if the MACC sectors kept their current Manchester callsigns. But if there IS going to be a single callsign I think there are 3 options:

1) Since we currently have London Control and Manchester Control, Scottish should really be Prestwick Control

2) Pick a point in between the 2 and call it Windemere Control

3) Let Zooker decide on the name - and then start your own TV talk show, that'd be ace :}

[Min Stack]

Manchwick or Scotchester - vote now.

[rab-k]

Don't claim to know the full in's and out's, but supposedly Prestwick wasn't used in the early days for the ACC because the Prestwick Oceanic Area Control Centre (POACC) had already nabbed it.

NATS have now more or less dropped the word Prestwick in this context and now simply refer in print to the "Oceanic Area Control Centre" located at Prestwick. (Despite the brass plaque in the corridor outside the old Ocean ops room and beside the entrance to the new still bearing the 'P' word).

A precident has already been set on the other side of the pond where NAVCANADA have seemingly managed to cope very well with an ACC which deals with both oceanic and domestic traffic from within the same ops room, while using the same ident: Gander. Can't see the problem with a single ident, after all, if the Canucks can cope, I'm sure we'll do likewise. With "Shanwick" being used alongside "Prestwick", unlike the situation with Gander, there'll be absolutely no chance of confusion between domestic and ocean.

(BTW, the only time a Shanwick ATCO is likely to I-D themselves as being "Prestwick" is to Shanwick Radio Operators at "Ballygirreen", otherwise you'd get a situation of "Shanwick", "Shanwick", "No, this is Shanwick" "No, I'm Shanwick, you called me" "Negative, you called ..." :ugh: )

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

rab-k

I wouldn't say that the Gander ident for 2 different units works very well. If I had a pound for every time I've heard someone check in with Gander Centre with a full position report or check in with Gander Radio with just flight level, I'd be a rich man.

Not that this adds anything to your discussion, but I thought I'd mention it.

G W-H

[BDiONU]

NATS have now more or less dropped the word Prestwick in this context and now simply refer in print to the "Oceanic Area Control Centre" located at Prestwick.
Might cause an issue with Prestwick airport who use the Prestwick callsign.

BD

[rab-k]

Giles / BD - good points well made.

Indeed Prestwick airport might have as much fun as Gander airport. I guess that's when use of the the suffix (or is that 'suffi' ?) "Ground" "Tower" "Approach" and "Centre" come into their own.

[22/04]

How about Edinburgh Control all ready for independance?

Why was the decison taken to move Manchester to Prestwick not Swannick, thus keeping control in England. (incidently was Swannick chosen because it ends in "ick")

When the Scots gain nidepndance they will presumably charge to provide atc for Manchester?

[rab-k]

When that day comes, ATC here will probably be provided by some Dubai based outfit, with a lousy name and yet worse corporate logo, charging in UAE Dhs. :}

[BDiONU]

(incidently was Swannick chosen because it ends in "ick")
Swanwick ends in wick, like Prestwick does.

BD

[daynehold]

No doubt controversial and probably politically incorrect but why not move the whole show to SE Asia – could then have a complete service – banking, medical appointments, on line shopping, directory inquiries, and takeoff clearances all from the flight deck!
:mad:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Might cause an issue with Prestwick airport who use the Prestwick callsign.

Why ?? They will be on different frequencies and have different callsigns (Tower, Radar, and Approach as opposed to Control).

Is someone at FL350 going to be confused that he might be talking to Prestwick Tower when he really needs to be with the Area Control Centre (ACC) ?? Is someone in the circuit at Prestwick going to be confused that he might be talking to the ACC ?? Of course they aren't. They will be talking to an assigned frequency or one which they have freecalled from a chart or aeronautical publication.

I think it's just an obstacle being put in place by those that don't know any better. They possibly have other names in mind for political or selfish reasons and are trying to hide behind the age old cover all 'It's the CAAs fault' smokescreen.

[NIFTY SO AND SO]

New names for NATS...

'Wedontbangemtogether'

'Starbucksfacilitiesmanagement'

'Barronsakokjse'

'Mymanagerispenil'.

[Scott Diamond]

Is this new facility near the old one?

Will have to help out here! A good callsign could be "Eh Pure Control" with translation lessons being started early:

Go it yeerseelf, big chap = Resume own navigation
Oan yer bike = Cleared for takeoff
Naw yer gawn eh wrong way = Turn right 10 degrees, report new heading
Hawd yer weisht = Radio silence please
F'k ye dain = Report your speed
Gees a clue = Squaw Ident
Am fair scunnered, big chap = Radar services terminated
Aye atsrite = Readback correct
Hauld it right there = Break
:mad: = Correction
Jist his wance mare = I say again
Geez yer patter = Pass your message
Wit wir ye toalt?! = Require a readback
Hauld it im droonin = Standby
Spoatoan = Affirm
Confirm? = Ye sh&ttin me pal?

Anymore suggestions? :}

[Skipness One Echo]

You DO know Prestwick isn't Glasgow, contrary to what Ryanair propaganda says. Parliamo Glesga doesn't apply surely !
That's like thinking Manchester is in er....Liverpool......!

Kilmarnock is a pretty bad place for the neds and Ayrshire people still do speak the patter at times! (Hence the slogan 'Pure Dead Brilliant' )

No one in Ayrshire has ever said "pure dead brilliant" mate. That's why the marketing slogan at PIK is so naff. It's pure weegie, and bad 1980s weegie at that.

[Scott Diamond]

I sure hope I do since I live in Glasgow!! :}

Kilmarnock is a pretty bad place for the neds and Ayrshire people still do speak the patter at times! (Hence the slogan 'Pure Dead Brilliant' :D)

[The Fat Controller]

It's going to be...............NORTHERN CONTROL

[classicwings]

Anglia Radar,done from Aberdeen has the callsign Anglia RadarYes it does and I still remember when Anglia Radar was done from Stansted Radar Room at the airport back in the old days - so why should callsigns be changed just because a Control Centre moves to a new geographical location!?!?!:=:=

[Talla Radar]

Yes it does and I still remember when Anglia Radar was done from Stansted Radar Room at the airport back in the old days - so why should callsigns be changed just because a Control Centre moves to a new geographical location!?!?!



Why? Because Manchester Sectors and Scottish Sectors will bandbox together, once controllers start cross validating, so we must have a common callsign.

[ZOOKER]

Talla,
Very hazardous.
From what I know of listening to Manchester during the "quiet hours", it would be very doubtful if any more airspace could be fused together safely.

[throw a dyce]

How about ''Hadrian Control''.Right on the border.:)

[On the beach]

Wouldn't that mean that all ginger-haired, beardy, skirt wearing pilots would be held indefinitely North of Berwick-on-Tweed!!!

On the beach:ok:

[Manchester ATC]

Why? Because Manchester Sectors and Scottish Sectors will bandbox together, once controllers start cross validating, so we must have a common callsign.

What make you think Scottish ACC will have full control over the Manchester area ? :=

:D

[BDiONU]

What make you think Scottish ACC will have full control over the Manchester area ? :=
:D
ScACC is not 'taking over' MACC. Prestwick Centre will combine ScACC and MACC sectors into a single centre.

BD

[fisbangwollop]

Seems more like MACC are taking over SCACC as NATS see to be falling over backwards to accomadate all of MACC's wants......!!!

[northernmonkey1261]

oh yeah, they're busting a gut to keep MACC morale sky high

[Vote NO]

I thought all the Manch guys were going to places like Saudi ATC and Afghanistan ATC to avoid the humungous journey North into the Rangers loving banjo playing :} Ayrshire community that behaved so well in the UEFA CUP :E

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44658000/jpg/_44658036_fan_clash_ap226.jpg

[Manchester ATC]

Best way out of all this is to give control of our skies to europe. Close all uk centres and run the lot from overseas.
:D

Merry xmas to all who are working.

[FoxUniform]

It would make perfect sense to have a common callsign for the whole centre. SCOTtish and ManCH working in unison. Perhaps a compromise is in order ?
May I suggest "SCOTCH Control".:}

Just a thought.:(

[rumouroid]

Or how about MANchester and scotTISH combining to make MANTISH control?

Whatever you guys n girls call yourselves, unite with your Southern colleagues to fight for a decent pay rise in 2009! :ok: