question

[blueskiesup]

Could someone clarify a particular issue for me please, when ATC say "turn left/right x-amount of degrees" do i reply " left/right x-degrees new heading 123 degrees" or just omit the new heading. Unless ATC ask for it, do i have to respond with the new heading?

[aaaabbbbcccc1111]

you dont have to give the new heading, if we need it we will ask.

[blueskiesup]

many thanks

[StillDark&Hungry]

But there's no harm in giving the new one if you can do the maths quickly.

If I'm going to need you on a heading for a prolonged period I will ask you to clarify what the new one is, so any further adjustments can be given as "turn left / right heading ... degrees" instead of "turn left another 5 / 10 degrees"

If, for another example, I need you on a parallel heading against another aircraft, I need to know what one of you is on to match it with the other!

I'm not expecting you to be aware of the traffic situation but giving your new heading covers both bases - I can note it down on my strip (or electronically) if I need to, or ignore it if I don't!

[ImnotanERIC]

with the mode s kit at TC you can see what heading the aircraft is flying if they are "sending" it. it only takes one click to have a peek at it. i use that tool quite a lot because my own headings are pony

[privatesandwiches]

and everyone likes a pony... or maybe a hippo!!!!

[Alivebas]

Strange,

everyone seems to agree not to readback. I was thought that ICAO required readback of headings and altitude. We don't have mode S at our facility, and then it really comes in handy when pilots read back the heading.

It happened to me only last weekthat a pilot did acknowledge his heading and still turned to a complete different one, so it's not a guarantee they will fly it :O

blueskiesup, you can just say "callsign, roger, left 123".. I think that covers it in a busy traffic environment.

[hvogt]

As far as legislation on ICAO level is concerned, I would like to take an educated guess. Please forgive me for not taking the effort to look into CAP 413. I know that the rules in the UK might be different but since I am not British I know only little about those differences, and hence I will presume that UK rules in this case comply with ICAO rules.

First of all, there seem to be no ICAO SARPS with respect to your question. ICAO Annex 10 Volume II no 5.2.1.9.2.2, which has PANS status only, however, says:

"An aircraft station should acknowledge receipt of important air traffic control messages or parts thereof by reading them back and terminating the readback by its radio call sign."

This readback is, by definition of ICAO Annex 10 Volume II Chapter 1,

"A procedure whereby the receiving station repeats a received message or an appropriate part thereof back to the transmitting station so as to obtain confirmation of correct reception."

Since you have, according to the definition above, to "repeat" the message the correct reply to the type of heading instruction in question would be "call sign turn left/right xxx degrees". StillDark&Hungry already mentioned there was no harm in giving the new heading. From a bean counter's point of view I would like to add that there is no harm in supplementing the readback with the new heading but giving the new heading as the only reply would not fulfill the norms quoted above.

[blueskiesup]

Thanks alot for all your replys. stillDarkandHungary,any help us drivers can give in making your job easier is always a good thing, so although it isn't required to readback the new heading I think I will from now on.

[loubylou]

Alivebas - you are correct in that if you are given a heading to fly then you must read back that heading ie - "turn left heading 350degrees" - but the question was that if the instruction was "turn right/left xx degrees" do you have to report the new heading you're turning onto - which you don't as long as you read back "turning right/left xx degrees"
Just to clarify :)

louby

[blueskiesup]

Thanks loubylou.

[Alivebas]

Thanks Loubylou, missed out on that.

[Boingboingdriver]

ATC will ask you to report the new heading if necessary....I must admit that UK and netherlands atc guys are top notch!why cant they teach some of their european colleagues their magic...

I have a question to ATC:

Why arent you more strict on phraseology to the guys transmitting for example(the US guys:#out of 123 4 350#. Level that is)and some europeans (Malev,LOT,on departure:#airborne#.) It kills my ears...not yours????

Captain standard.:E