Oban Crash Inquest

[Phil Space]

Not good reading.Over the limit with no licence and no IMC rating.

This from the Daily Mail

Family died in plane crash after pilot father and co-pilot daughter had been drinking, inquest told


Chartered accountant John Smith and his daughter Jacqueline had been drinking before they flew a plane that crashed on its way back from a family holiday, also killing the pair and his wife Angela, an inquest was told.

Tests revealed that John Smith, 56, who was in the commander's seat, was five times over the flying limit with a reading of 99mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood. The legal limit is 20mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood.

His daughter Jacqueline, 25, who was co-pilot, was twice over with a reading of 48mg when their Piper PA plane crashed after taking off from Connel Airfield near Oban, in Scotland, at Easter last year.

Mr Smith, 56, apparently became disorientated in cloud, the inquest in Chelmsford, Essex, heard.
Angela, Jaqueline and John Smith were killed when the family plane crashed in 'a tragic accident', an inquest heard

It was also revealed on Tuesday that the local councillor, who had been flying for 27 years, had his licence revoked by the Civil Aviation Authority earlier last year after failing to have an electro cardiogram test which he needed annually owing to a previous heart condition.

Coroner's officer John Pheby said: 'John and his daughter Jacqueline were both part owners of a light aircraft.

'The three of them flew from Andrewsfield, near Great Dunmow, to Scotland for the easter holiday on the return journey John was in the commander's seat and Jacqueline in the co-pilot seat. Angela, 55, was in the rear passenger seat.

'They set off at 10.35am on the 9 April 2007 and disappeared from the radar at 10.50am.

'The next day a farmer found the wreckage and an inquiry commenced.
Wreckage from the crash was spread over a 1,300sq ft area in the remote and mountainous region near Loch Scammadale, nine miles south of Oban. Police found there were no suspicious circumstances and no third party involved.'

The family from Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex, were confirmed dead three days later on 12 April. The inquest heard how Mr Smith also had a medical history of coronary artery disease and chronic renal disease which could have lead to 'temporary incapacity'.

The hearing was also told that neither he nor his daughter had a licence for flying in cloudy weather. At the time of takeoff the weather forecast for Oban in Scotland was cloudy and drizzly.

The inquest heard how Mr Smith was 'concerned' about the weather and told an operator at the Connel Airfield that he was going to have a look at conditions before deciding to fly.
John Smith with his family in 1987 - Jacqueline and her mother Angela are at the back

John Smith with his family in 1987 - Jacqueline and her mother Angela are at the back

The only technical problem discovered on the 30-year-old aircraft was that a vacuum pump had failed which would have caused the altitude indicator to be unreliable which could have contributed to the crash, the inquest heard.

Marcus Cook, senior investor for the Air Accident Investigation Bureau based in Farnborough, Hants, said all the factors could have had a 'culminative effect' on the crash.

He said: 'The weather was a reasonable factor prior to takeoff and having made the decision to fly there was a chance Mr Smith may have found fairer weather further down the coast.

'He had not been trained to fly in clouds and he might have been disorientated. We believe the vacuum pump failed at this time, the altitude indicator may not have been working and having lost instrumentation he could been disorientated and lost control of the airplane.

'Add to that the alcohol which could have been distracting and increases chances of spacial disorientation, add in the fact he didn't have experience to fly through clouds as well, it's quite difficult to regain control out of clouds but to do it in clouds is very difficult indeed unless you have had lots of training.'

He also said Mr Smith's heart and kidney problems could have been exacerbated by the stress of the situation.

Mr Smith's other daughter Christine, 28, a teacher said the family still did not know who was flying the plane, adding: 'My sister never flew on her own so we still don't know who was the pilot.'

Coroner Caroline Beasley-Murray said the victims all died of multiple injuries as a result of the 'tragic accident' and recorded three verdicts of accidental death.

She said: 'Words are quite inadequate, but I would like to assure you of the court's sympathy on the loss of your parents. I do hope you will be able to remember all the happy, positive memories that you have.'

Mr Smith and his wife also had a 22-year-old son Richard, a student.

Mr Smith, owned accountancy firm Harvey Smith and Co, based near the family's home in Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex.

He had been a Conservative councillor on Maldon District Council in Essex since 1987 and had recently been elected chairman of the Maldon Constituency Conservative Association.

[Romeo India Xray]

I would be interested to know the relationship between the vacuum pump and the altimeter. More quality journalism!!!

This was a sad and needless accident and one I shall be using as a case study to re-affirm the importance of aeronautical decision, for an instructor seminar I will be running in a few months. Flying on a partial panel is something I have practiced since this incident, to a point where I can now comfortably shoot an unfamiliar NPA on pressure instruments alone. If you are not comfortable doing this and do not have a secondary AI then you really don't have too much business going into IMC in the first place.

And one final thought - The AI/DI should be regularly cross checked against the pressure instruments to ensure they are in agreement with each other. Gyros tend to topple quite slowly - check them against ASI, altimeter and compass.

RIX

[Phil Space]

I would be interested to know the relationship between the vacuum pump and the altimeter. More quality journalism!!!

Just a simple error Romeo X-Ray!

'He had not been trained to fly in clouds and he might have been disorientated. We believe the vacuum pump failed at this time, the altitude indicator may not have been working and having lost instrumentation he could been disorientated and lost control of the airplane.

An easy mistake for a non pilot reporter to hear 'altitude indicator' for attitude indicator

This case would most likely have been covered by a local agency or freelance reporter with no aviation knowledge.

[Fuji Abound]

The only technical problem discovered on the 30-year-old aircraft was that a vacuum pump had failed which would have caused the altitude indicator

Given that we are talking about the AI not DI that is a terrible understatement - if the AI failed in IMC that is a significant issue which is always going to prove challenging - it might have been the only technical problem but it was a hell of a big one.

[NewTimer]

Nothing that wasn't already in the AAIB report, surely?

http://tinyurl.com/697e52

Newtimer

[tuscan]

Instument failures asides, the levels of alcohol must have been a large contributer to this accident.

I carry an alcohol tester with me when flying or driving for any stopovers that will include alcohol the evening before as I can not trust my judgement on levels the following day and would not want to lose my licences or worse.

We are quite often sensitive with our comments regarding accidents on these threads but this one seems to have been waiting to happen.

My apologies if this upsets anyone and if required I can pull the post but I think its relevant.
We must not ever consider flying when under the influence, there are quite often innocent parties involved who are relying on our judgement and skills. If we want to kill ourselves then fine, but this was a needless loss of life.

[gasax]

Regarding alcohol presumably you apply the two very different limits depending on whether you are flying or driving?

The flying limit has had virtually no research to determine whether it is a 'safe' limit or not - it is a fairly arbitrary number whcih means 'no alcohol'.

As discussed at the time it is probable that alcohol had very little to do with this accident.

[tuscan]

Driving I use the legal limit. Flying I will not do if any alcohol is present.
I would have thought the amount of alcohol would have had a detrimental effect on judgement, however I am no clinical expert in these matters and do not wish to involve myself in a discussion I am not equipped to win, it was purely an opinion.

[Romeo India Xray]

Joining the alcohol debate, I will not personally fly either privately or commercially if I have consumed alcohol within 24 hours - ANY alcohol. If I have consumed 3 or more pints/glasses of red then that goes up to 48 hours.

Like I said before, this was both sad and needless. I pray others will learn from it although I suspect few will.

RIX

[usedtofly]

Right then, I will start by saying that any death is a tragedy and I do have compassion for the families involved.................but.....

The two pilots broke 2 significant rules, the first being flying whilst under the influence of alcohol and the second flying IMC without training or qualification.

The matter of vacuum pump failure is incidental.

I would imagine that had the two pilots lived then they would have been charged with the manslaughter of the female passenger. She was probably not qualified to assess that the two pilots were well outside their personal and legal limitations and had to trust them completely to provide her with a safe passage.

Lets not get too precious about this. They broke the rules on two significant counts and on this occasion it cost them their lives.

During my flying career I have met too many people who 'get away with it'...............this proves that does not always happen.

It is a salutary lesson to all.

UTF

[Phil Space]

The P-i-C also had no valid licence or medical and the aircraft took off 181 lb over weight.He also had a history of flying IMC with no rating!

Seems in this case all the holes in the cheese lined up.
They used the autopilot in IMC and when the vac pump gave up they did not have the skill to recognise or recover from the problem.

[youngskywalker]

Surely there was only the one pilot, the last time I checked a PA28 is not multi crew. Just becasue two Pilot's were sat in the front does not make them both liable. Having said that, pretty poor show for either of them to allow this to happen. RIP

[dont overfil]

As has been mentioned earlier a failure of the horizon is a very difficult thing to recognise in time and almost certainly was the primary cause, or at least started the chain of events. I was thinking they may have survived if they HAD been using the autopilot. On many aircraft of this type the autopilot gets its reference from the electrically driven turn indicator.
DO.

[Phil Space]

Autopilots are great until like most things electronic they go wrong. Sods law says they will do this when you most need them. Although in the case of this accident it is likely the vacuum pump failure led the autopilot astray not all autopilots need a vac pump.
Worth checking out how yours works here:
Autopilots: ARC, Century, King, S-Tec (http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:QeaF6qXjPp8J:www.avionicslist.com/articles/autopilots.php+century+3+autopilot+problems&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)

In the case of the accident aircraft here is further info:

Century III/IV/2000

These Century Autopilot systems work much like their counter parts, the ARC 400 series and the King KFC-150/200. Roll and pitch information is again derived in the horizon indicator and sent to the computer for processing.Century 2000 Like the other two axis systems we’ve talked about, the Century has an altitude hold module also that monitors static pressure but basic pitch is still picked off the horizon indicator.

The Century system can be driven from its own DG or just about any manufacturer’s HSI. It’s not uncommon to see a Century III with the heading system manufactured by King. In fact, Century even has two different HSI systems of their own; one is all electric and the other is vacuum AND electric. We will dive into HSI operation in our next session. In general, the Century autopilot isn’t a bad system; most of the problems we see with the Century are pitch oscillations and/or bad connections at the plastic connectors.

What Happens if My Turn Coordinator Fails? These autopilot systems do not get any information from the turn coordinator. The Century I single axis system uses the turn coordinator; we will discuss that system later.

What Happens if My Horizon Indicator Fails? The best you could hope for is the gyro would roll off to one side as it spooled down and disengage the autopilot. If you even suspect the horizon is failing, shut the autopilot off then. Fly the aircraft by hand, it’s not that hard.

What Happens if My Vacuum HSI or DG fails? The Century series autopilot will still keep the wings level and the pitch/altitude hold functions will still work as advertised. I’d recommend pulling out the turn knob, this will level the wings; from there you can turn this knob in the direction you wish to go and use the heading shown on the wet compass. If you turn this knob full in either direction the aircraft will bank in a standard rate turn. Most HSI indicators have a "Heading" warning flag. Century does sell an all electric HSI; of course this keeps working if the vacuum pump fails.

What Happens if I lose My Vacuum Pump? Unless the horizon gyro tumbles and disconnects the autopilot you’ve got a big problem; who knows what the aircraft will do. Monitor the vacuum warning system; at the first sign of a vacuum failure or problem, disengage the autopilot and be prepared to fly using partial panel. I bet at this point you’d wish you had that all electric HSIJ

[vanHorck]

Thee types of people are a disgrace to the flying community. STOP
I am sorry for those they left behind.
I have nothing else to say.
(Anger)

[newswatcher]

The AAIB report did refer to an alcohol study - "Medical Facts for Pilots, FAA Publication AM-400-94/2 by Guillermo Salazar, M.D. and Melchor Antuñano, M.D." from which the following extract was made:

"According to some studies, the number of serious errors committed by pilots dramatically increases at or above concentrations of 40 mg/100 ml blood alcohol. This is not to say that problems do not occur below this value. Some studies have shown decrements in pilot performance with blood alcohol concentrations as low as 25 mg/100 ml."

it is probable that alcohol had very little to do with this accident

yet the AAIB report says - "....If these levels genuinely reflect the amount of alcohol present in the blood at the time of the accident, it is possible that they may have produced some decrement in performance which may have been prejudicial to the safe conduct of the flight."

Coupled with other facts from the report and, as others have alluded, it is difficult to conclude other than that the "commander" had a cavalier attitude towards flying.

[C172 Hawk XP]

the "commander" had a cavalier attitude towards flying

That's putting it mildly ! You are being far too kind.

I totally agree with VanHorck in the previous post.

In this accident the wife in the back was the innocent victim.

Any insurance industry insiders able to comment on how any claim (the plane was group owned, I believe) would be affected by this absolutely proven irresponsibility / illegality ?

[PompeyPaul]

To be fair though, they hadn't gone out drinking and then flying. They had drunk the night before and believed they had slept it off. I personally can't feel a pint of strong lager inside me, it takes 2 or 3 before I'm aware that I've drunk. So I do it by calculation that a can of strong lager is 3 units and you process a unit an hour.

So it's more than possible they took off feeling fine, believing they were fine, but unfortunately weren't fine.

It also seems similar to the very sad Cirrus loss over the channel on the weekend. Non imc pilots relying on auto-pilot to fly IMC

[vanHorck]

Most people who have drunk feel fine!

To go flying whilst over the drink limit and in IMC too.... Give me a break!

[Pace]

To be fair though, they hadn't gone out drinking and then flying. They had drunk the night before and believed they had slept it off. I personally can't feel a pint of strong lager inside me, it takes 2 or 3 before I'm aware that I've drunk. So I do it by calculation that a can of strong lager is 3 units and you process a unit an hour.

So it's more than possible they took off feeling fine, believing they were fine, but unfortunately weren't fine.

It also seems similar to the very sad Cirrus loss over the channel on the weekend. Non imc pilots relying on auto-pilot to fly IMC

99mg of alcohol the following morning what was he the night before Paralitic? A heart condition, No medical, No licence no instrument training, Had he survived I am sure he would have been imprisoned.

Does anyone know the rate of dissipation of alcohol in the blood per hour after consumption and what he would have likely had the night before to have those levels the following morning.

What happened to the people on the ground to even allow this guy to takeoff with NO regard for his passengers. Maybe it was better he died than have to live with what his actions caused.

Pace

[C172 Hawk XP]

Does anyone know the rate of dissipation of alcohol in the blood per hour after consumption

Most textbooks will say that alcohol is metabolised by the liver at approx 15mg / 100ml blood per hour. So, as someone just mentioned, to be well over the (flying) limit in the morning he must have been totally inebriated the night before.

Let's face it, it's bad airmanship to fly even with a hangover . . . . . let alone no medical, no IMC traing, overweight . . . . . GRRRRRR . . . :ugh:

I must say I'm pleased to see how firmly and unanimously this sort of behaviour has been condemned in this thread. In other threads involving fatalities there has been evidence of "sensitivities" being rubbed up the wrong ways. We seem to be largely in agreement on this one.

[PompeyPaul]

I must say I'm pleased to see how firmly and unanimously this sort of behaviour has been condemned in this thread
I disagree. I think it's truly disgusting. They made some mistakes and paid the ultimate price, RIP.

I feel for any family members reading this thread.

[SR71-Blackbird]

No sympathy for either "pilot".
In fact, the less of these hare-brained idiots there are in aviation, the safer the rest of us will be. Got their just deserts as far as I'm concerned

Condolences to the surviving family members though

SR

[C172 Hawk XP]

They made some mistakes

That must be the grossest understatement I have seen in many years.

This is a free country, we have the right to free speech, I would vigorously defend your right to hold opinions which differ from mine.

But, if you are at least a realist, you would acknowledge that on this occasion you appear to be in a fairly small minority.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

"the AAIB report says - ....If these levels genuinely reflect the amount of alcohol present in the blood at the time of the accident, it is possible that they may have produced some decrement in performance which may have been prejudicial to the safe conduct of the flight."

A lot of posters here have jumped straight onto the alchohol aspects of this accident. Seems to me the AAIB have a far more balanced view than some ranters on here. The limit for flying is very low, and I think the AAIB's comments take this into account.

This pilot (whichever of the two was the pilot) should not have been drinking. But the real cause of this tracgedy is flying in IMC without relevant skills, and then having the rug pulled out from under them by an AI failure in IMC.

The alchohol factor is deplorable, but probaly not too significant here. Being in IMC while unqualified is a known killer - to then lose the primary attitude instrument while in that demanding situation pretty much guarantees a tragic ending.

SSD

[C172 Hawk XP]

That last post does not even mention:

Having been declared medically unfit,
Having an expired pilot's licence,
Being grossly in excess of MTOW.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

...And when you're in IMC with no AI and no instrument qualification, and fast losing it, of what practical relevance are those? :rolleyes:

SSD

[C172 Hawk XP]

I would say that would be quite relevant

. . . . . . . . and I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

Gentlemen, let's not fall out about the minutiae of this story. It's well known that there is no single cause for any accident, numerous things stack up. But what we have here is a very very sad story which will no doubt become an educational classic case for those whose job it is to impart what is (or, actually, is not) meant by "good airmanship".

[Pace]

Pace
not sure what you mean by this:

Quote:
What happened to the people on the ground to even allow this guy to takeoff with NO regard for his passengers

Are you suggesting that those on the ground should have physically stopped him?
Perhaps the guy behind the bar should not have been pouring drink down his throat..
Perhaps the syndicate members should have eyeballed every members license and medical etc as part of them continuing to be part of the syndicate etc.
Perhaps the CAA should do ramp checks - as is done here in the US by the FAA Inspectors.
Where do you draw the line..

Socal

The guy in the left seat had 99mg of alcohol in his system which was twice the driving limit and five times the aviation limit the pilot in the right seat was on the driving limit and two and a half times over the aviation limit.

Surely someone at the airport must have noticed something odd but didnt question or were not alerted.

Maybe the guy in the left seat regarded the woman pilot in the right seat as captain from the right. Maybe she didnt think her alcohol levels were so high.

No medical, no licence a history of medical problems, No instrument capability aircraft overweight???

The aircraft overweight in itself isnt a major problem on the right runway with the C of G correct, the vacuum failure isnt a major problem in alert and well trained IR pilot but looking at the total MIX of this flight the results were almost inevitable and reaks of someone who didnt care a toss.

Pace

[PompeyPaul]

But, if you are at least a realist, you would acknowledge that on this occasion you appear to be in a fairly small minority.
I often am on this board. It doesn't really worry me. If I'm the only person human enough to suggest that slagging someone off that's died with comments like:

Got their just deserts as far as I'm concerned

Is in bad taste, then I think it says rather more about the sort of poster on pprune than it does anything about me!

[Keef]

the vacuum failure isnt a major problem in alert and well trained IR pilot
Exactly so - if you spot it!

We all do partial panel training for the IMC/IR or renewal in the UK, and like to think we'd spot an AI failure. But for a pilot who has never had any IMC training, and is relying on the AI to get through the clouds, I wouldn't be so confident. I think a vacuum pump failure in IMC, for a pilot who is stretching things like that, is one event too far.

This pilot clearly had decided that the normal rules didn't apply to him. He paid the ultimate price for that presumption. I find it very sad, but not surprising.

[dublinpilot]

which will no doubt become an educational classic case for those whose job it is to impart what is (or, actually, is not) meant by "good airmanship"

I've no doubt that you are correct, but I hope not. Telling people about these sort of incidents probably only results in them thinking "I'd never do anything as stupid as that" and switching off.

I think people take more (learn more) from an incident where all the decisions in isolation seem reasonable, but overall they build up to be a problem. Perhaps in those types of situation people could see themselves makeing was seem to be reasonable decisions, and learn something from it.

dp

[gasax]

This thread seems to have a lot of comparisons with red top journalism.

The alcohol limit for flying is very low - low enough that natural decomposition can mean you are over the limit. So for those making this noise bear in mind your relatives may read something similar!

The AAIB had to be careful about the alcohol contribution because a very unusual method of determining the alcohol concentration was used. One which could be challenged.

It's negligent to fly if you have health problems? But there were 2 pilots onboard. No one seems too worried about being overweight - possibly because they do it also?

Not having a current licence? Well there are a whole variety of reasons and ways in which that can occur - but again they were 2 pilots onboard.

These people died because the autopilot was flying them and the vacuum pump it was linked to failed - with the terrain and the height they were at they had little time to notice something which has killed a lot of current IR pilots.

Picking up on the perpherial aspects of the accident makes for a great deal of self rightousness but very much misses the point - but I suppose it allows people to feel smug.

[Phil Space]

These people died because the autopilot was flying them and the vacuum pump it was linked to failed - with the terrain and the height they were at they had little time to notice something which has killed a lot of current IR pilots.

There is nothing red top about telling the truth.

Don't blame the vac pump. They took off in to non VFR conditions without the neccesary training and qualifications to cope with the problems that could arise.

No doubt they had employed the same trick in the past but this time fate took a hand.Play with fire and at some time you will get burnt.

I just hope others who fly will the same attitude will think again after reading the AAIB report and the details of the inquest.

[Islander2]

Don't blame the vac pump. They took off in to non VFR conditions without the neccesary training and qualifications to cope with the problems that could arise.Hmmm. Whilst doubtless we can all agree that the pilot exhibited an unwise, cavalier attitude to flying, it certainly doesn't follow that this was the cause of the accident. Just as likely their luck ran out, which could equally have happened had the pilot not been in breach of any regulations.

In my flying lifetime, there have been numerous fatalities following instrument failure in IMC. Whilst in no way suggesting that training, qualifications and being below the legal alcohol limit are unimportant, what is absolutely certain is that they are not sufficient to guarantee a survivable outcome from the type and timing of mechanical failure experienced on this fateful flight.

Two prominent examples (from many) come to mind:

1) The Knight Air Bandeirante that lost one or possibly both artificial horizons two minutes after take-off from Leeds/Bradford (May 1995), and crashed killing all twelve occupants. Two highly trained, qualified and current professional pilots.

2) The Beech Bonanza that had a gyro failure one and half minutes after take off from Linden, New Jersey (November 1999), and crashed a mile from downtown Newark killing all three occupants and injuring twenty five people on the ground. An ATPL pilot with >4,000 hours, flying 200-300 hours p.a. on type and regular acting as instrument instructor in the highly-acclaimed Bonanza Pilot Proficiency Program.

As gasax says:Picking up on the perpherial aspects of the accident makes for a great deal of self rightousness but very much misses the pointI have a suspicion that the real 'survival' message from this tragic accident is rather different from the one most posters are focusing on.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Ermmm, well had he abided by the law, he would have been on the ground... and 3 lives would have been saved..

I would say that would be quite relevant.

That's just silly. By that logic if he'd never learned to fly he would have been on the ground. It's of course true like the stuff you quoted, but entirely irrelevant to that accident!

They died because they ventured into IMC without the requisite skills, and the failure of the AI pretty much ensured disaster. The alcohol didn't help. All the rest is fluff.

SSD

[Pace]

The well known footballer Luke Mc Cormick was jailed for killing two young boys when loosing control of his car. His Alcohol level was twice the drink driving limit or the same as the left seat pilot of this aircraft.

To fly an aircraft in IMC while qualified to do so is demanding enough add a possible vacuum failure and the pilot would have to be quick thinking, well co ordinated and current to stay on top of the situation.

Put a drunk pilot at the controls, one who is not even qualified in instrument flying and who no longer holds a medical or licence???

Had he survived the crash I am sure he too would have been imprisoned for killing his passengers.

Pace

[Islander2]

His Alcohol level was twice the drink driving limit or the same as the left seat pilot of this aircraft [my bold]Pace, surely it's incumbent on those making strong allegations to at least get their facts straight? Twice the drink drive limit in the UK is a blood alcohol concentration of 160mg per ml, not the 99mg per ml attributed by the toxicologist to the left seat pilot in this case.

[bookworm]

Pace, surely it's incumbent on those making strong allegations to at least get their facts straight?

Another difference is that the pilot was dead at the time the sample was taken. Can anyone cite an example of postmortem muscle alcohol concentration being accepted as evidence of premortem BAC in a criminal case?

[S-Works]

I wonder how many on here have flown with a hangover?

[usedtofly]

No one likes to speak ill of the dead, but the simple fact is that this pilot flaunted the rules, plain and simple.

The issue of medical is not really relevant, nor is the overweight bit. The alcohol might well have had something to do with the accident. However, the pilot elected to fly in IMC without sufficient training.....................it cost him and his two passengers their lives.

The other pilot should have known better.

The non pilot knew no different.

I have little sympathy for the pilots in this case but much for the passenger and remaining relatives.

UTF

[modelman]

Although it is possible to feel 'ok' the next day,they must have been on a bit of a bender to still have that much alcohol in their system ( I wonder if they would have driven a car that day-haven't read the report for a while so maybe they did that as well).
In my view,the alcohol was the only causal factor in their demise:
It affected their judgment to even consider flying that day
It affected their judgment to consider the wx
It must have affected their ability as pilots once aloft

I consider the failing vac pump as irrelevant-their fate was sealed the moment they stepped into the a/c in an unfit state to fly.

Condolences to their bereaved relatives and the people who had to recover their remains.
On a general note about 'respect for the dead':Never been too sentimental about the dead-if I thought someone was a complete tosser in life,I would still feel the same way in death,the same applies if I thought they were a good 'un.
MM

[CMS]

The daughter in the right seat was legal and was, presumably at least legally, the commander of this flight. There is no requirement for the commander to be seated in the left seat.

Other than the level of alcohol in the daughter's bloodstream, I see no illegality in this flight. And even that she was highly unlikely to be aware of.

In my opinion, it was a mistake for the AAIB to refer to the father as commander; they do not seem to have justified their position at all. The accident was more than likely caused by a VFR pilot flying into IMC and relying on the autopilot to keep the plane safe. When that failed, there were probably few options.

[UV]

The daughter in the right seat was legal and was, presumably at least legally, the commander of this flight. There is no requirement for the commander to be seated in the left seat.


No, she wasnt legal,she didnt have a licence.....see report.

In my opinion, it was a mistake for the AAIB to refer to the father as commander

Well, in the absence of anybody holding a valid licence, the AAIB would want to decide who was the "Commander" or at least who was doing the flying. Taking into account that the flight was departing into known, difficult, IMC I would have thought it quite logical that the "Commander" (or at least the person flying it) would sit on the instrumented side of the cockpit.

UV

[tuscan]

I wonder how many on here have flown with a hangover?


I have flown from the right hand side when the left seat admitted he felt rotten once we were airborn.
On asking about the night before they admitted to having a late and heavy night. If I were not qualified our safety would have been compromised. In fact it was as I have limited experience with landing from the right seat. Thankfully they had the good sense to admit it and let me take over but really it would have been better not to have even contemplated flying.

I would think there are many who have flown whilst on or over the limit without realising.
A simple alcohol test pre flight is good sense but I doubt many bother.