ATC Pay Comparison

[frilsy]

Hi,

I'm compiling a list of payscales for ATC units around Britain and need some help in gaining all the information. The info I'm after for any unit is

1. Tower Scale Start Salary
2. Radar Scale Start Salary
3. Radar Scale top Salary (Basic ATCO)
4. Watch Manager Salary
5. Airport movements / Day
6. Airport passenger figures / year
7. Basic Roster Pattern (6/4 etc...)

If anyone has the time / inclination to give me a hand in my quest please reply to the thread or drop me a PM. Results can be shared after!!! The more units the better!

[chevvron]

For what purpose do you require this information?

[frilsy]

The usual pay talks. Believed to be falling behind market rates and want to get my facts right before I present them.

[landedoutagain]

Market rates, based on recent figures from union magazine - average of 3.8% across about 55 companies.

[frilsy]

Cheers Yahoo! That's a good start. I've got most of the NATS passenger figures / movements from their website.
Ta.
Frilsy

[Roadrunner Once]

Hello, this seems as good a place as any to ask.

I've recently had a job offer from NERL as an experienced controller. I'm assuming the pay scale for Swanwick is the same (band 5?) as the Heathrow scale that Yahoo!® posted above, minus the outer London weighting. Is that correct? Is anyone able to post, or PM me if you prefer, the actual spine points within that scale so I can make sense of the offer I got? Also, how long does a TVC last?

Many fanks :)

[expediteoff]

Frilsy

You will off course appreciate that there's a Global Market for our services, and whilst it may be interesting to see the rates within the UK, the real market has become, and will continue to be the "rate" that the World Market offers.
Unfortunately the terms and conditions, along with salary offered by the quoted figures above are, at present, far from the best within this World Market.

[chevvron]

Roadrunner Once; if you think Swanwick and Heathrow are band 1 units, you have a lot to learn about NATS.

[Roadrunner Once]

I got them the wrong way round, didn't I. Oops. Corrected now, cheers.

[classicwings]

Stansted is actually a busier airport now than Manchester in terms of pax no.s passing through the airport per year (I believe Manchester may still do a greater number of a/c movements p/a), so shouldn't Stansted controllers be seeking a pay rise from their Union to eclipse the salaries of Manchester ATCO's?!?!:}:}:}

[cleo]

How about adding the numbers of support staff at your units? Do you always have an ATSA available or are you expected to undertake that role in your 'responsiblility free' SRATCOH break? And what are ATSA pay scales?

[classicwings]

oh i wasn't aware EGSS were doing their own radar again, when did that happen? :rolleyes:Technically Stansted are still NOT doing their own radar again as they are simply doing ESSEX RADAR!:ok:

[Radarspod]

we'll also be knocking down their radar next year and building our own one! Mwah Mwah Mwah! :}

RS

[Gonzo]

Question.....

Why should passenger numbers have any bearing on ATCO pay?

[classicwings]

Question............

Why are Heathrow ATCO's salaries at the top of the pile?

[throw a dyce]

Classicwings,
Maybe controllers who have to validate Radar as well as Tower,should get something extra for it as well.:}

[Geffen]

classicwings,

LL pax numbers have no bearing on ATCO salary.

[privatesandwiches]

Throw a dyce....
maybe TMA and AC ATCOs who do 2 or more sectors (above MUR) should be getting something extra aswell... and those who work in a band 5 TMA roomand do the likes of luton approach or thames ONLY should get paid less.
pax numbers have bugger all to do with ATCO pay.

[throw a dyce]

Privatesandwiches,
I didn't say anything about pax numbers.:=
If you can explain logically why a Luton approach or Thames only controller,should get £23K p.a.more than a Tower and Radar qualified Aberdeen controller,then you win a coconut.

[classicwings]

Classicwings,
Maybe controllers who have to validate Radar as well as Tower,should get something extra for it as well.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Yes indeed thow a dice, and I didn't think it was a requirement for Heathrow TWR ATCO's to have a radar validation as well!!

[Brian81]

And whilst we're on this subject maybe we should add into the 'pay equation' the TYPE of traffic as well as the levels.

Heathrow is busy in so much as they move a lot of people on big aircraft, but at the end of the day, they are tower only. Heathrow, being close to London also has high living costs.

Birmingham is kinda busy , moving people on big aircraft & they have to do there own radar. The midlands has reasonable living costs.

Now, stepping out of the NATS spectrum for a moment.

If I work at an airfield (of comparable size) & we only regularly have small aircraft, but we have A LOT of them movements (certainly comparable to a large NATS unit), why are we paid considerably less than the lowest band in NATS???

And then, why are pilots (generally) paid even more than (generally) most of us?

How should we grade salary levels on a unit to unit basis?

By number of aircraft movements?
By number of passenger movements?
By ratings held and used by controller?
By proximity to large city's & cost of living?
By age and experience?
By size of aircraft using the airport?
By the percentage of delays (or lack of)?

I think this pay thing comes down to the old adage; "ask 3 ATCOs a question, and get 6+ answers".

It's only when all ATCOs (NATS & non-NATS) "band" (no pun intended) together and decide what our fee is and on what factor that fee is based, can we move forward and harmonise our salaries to be more inline with the world market. We are, after all, a very skilled & highly specialised band of professionals who should get what we deserve IF we strive to attain it.

Until then I fear, the powers that be (or at least the ones with the purse strings) will just sit back and watch as the ATCOs collectively debate amongst themselves.

Wow. Should I maybe have a career change to speech writer? I've just re-read my post and it sounds gooooooooooood.

:ok:

[classicwings]

classicwings,

LL pax numbers have no bearing on ATCO salary.Geffen, why are you and other Ppruner's who refer to Heathrow trying to correct me on my assumptions on the correlation between UK airport pax no.s and associated ATCO salaries? I made no reference to LL pax bearing on ATCO salaries in my original post and if you re-read it you will see that I was actually making a LIGHT HEARTED remark about the fact that Stansted are now handling more passengers p.a than Manchester, but I do actually understand that this bears no relevence to ATCO salaries.:ugh:

[Geffen]

Maybe I should pay more attention to smileys! :)

[Gonzo]

I would wager that the vast majority of us at LL would kill for the chance to do radar as well as tower. That was certainly the case in the rest room today when we discussed this thread.

Classicwings, was your earlier question about LHR being 'top of the pile' for pay a serious one?

[mr.777]

Likewise, those of us at TC doing approach radar only would love to do tower/radar too.

[Gonzo]

I can well imagine that!

[privatesandwiches]

throw a dyce.
my coment on pax numbers was not to you, just as a general answer to others thinking it should possibly be in the equation of ATCO pay :=

And my point is that thames and luton or any other aproach only ATCO should not be getting band 5 pay for doing a job that if they were at the unit they service they would be getting band 2,3,4, (except LL) pay but no one has the nuts to sort it.. they basically get band 5 for being at swanwick, its a complete farce.

[classicwings]

GONZO

Firstly;

Classicwings, was your earlier question about LHR being 'top of the pile' for pay a serious one? Errr...........................NO!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif (Please bear in mind my light hearted comments again about Stansted handling more pax than Manchester- despite the fact that I know this has no relation to ATCO salaries at either unit) AND

Secondly;

I would wager that the vast majority of us at LL would kill for the chance to do radar as well as tower. That was certainly the case in the rest room today when we discussed this thread.Oh, I bet you all wish you had been employed by NATS in the 'golden era' when working in ATC was almost a paid hobby and airports (including LHR) still had combined Tower and Radar functions!!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif


PRIVATE SANDWICHES

pax numbers have bugger all to do with ATCO pay. I wish there was a better smiley in my menu box to emphasise the fact that I wasn't actually being serious in trying to relate pax no.s at airports to the wealth of ATCO's!

[mr.777]

Speaking as somebody who benefits from the rather odd situation at TC of everyone being on the same Band 5 money, I can see where your comments are coming from. I'm sure the company would save a fortune if respective approach sectors were paid the equivalent of their tower counterparts.
Unfortunately, I don't think you'd ever get that to stick now. Also, you'd have to offer people the opportunity to train on higher paid sectors to improve their pay....not a problem for me personally, I'd be more than happy to try and elevate my Band 4 status to Band 5.:)

[classicwings]

Hasn't it always been the case within NATS whereby approach /area controllers are on a higher pay banding than aerodrome controllers?

This does relate mind you to a few (now retired) controllers I know who, bearing in mind their future enhanced paycheques, couldn't get through the front door of TC West Drayton quick enough when Stansted Radar moved down there and they said a big 'cheereo' to SS TWR!!:}:}

[kinglouis]

its the dozy few who pretty much refuse to do another approach sector that takes the piss. there are pleny i know of who are more than happy to do 2 but management give them the fob off and they sit bored as hell for the most part.

[Fly Through]

Frilsy's original question was????????

Would like to help but our pay scales are kept under lock and key in the admin managers lair. If I was to guess I'd go for approx 43k to 58K for a fully valid controller. Oh and that's at Elvis' favourite airport :}

Would all those angry & frustrated NATS atcos kindly return to their numerous other threads on the subject :E

[Hootin an a roarin]

Fly Through

Is the 58K including any shift or other allowances or are they on top?

If they are on top 58K is roughly the top of scale at the 5th busiest airport within NATS and the country which begs the question why am I pi**ing about within NATS. :hmm:

[Foondoot]

Hootin':

No shift pay on top of that.

Interesting point of view! Several of our colleagues had a look at the relative hues of the grass recently and came to a different conclusion. They'll be joining you on your side of the fence very soon.

Mind you, it would be interesting to see the GP, NX and NT scales.

[Sir Vaylance Radar]

I reckon Fly Through's guestimate is pretty much spot on - the only extras are for things like OJTI & LCE or a few additional admin tasks. The allowances are pretty poor though - in fact it's so long since they were changed, even old codgers like Cartman probably can't remember ! ;)

[cleo]

I'll give you 3 reasons

1 - Final salary pension
2 - LOL insurance
3 - working conditions

Trust me - I know of what I speak. I can't comment on other places but Elvis's favourite can't compete with NATS on any of those. That might be why a fair percentage of Elvis fans are leaving the building.

[Minesapint]

we'll also be knocking down their radar next year and building our own one! Mwah Mwah Mwah!

\don't bet on that! :suspect:

[Point Seven]

Wow. Should I maybe have a career change to speech writer? I've just re-read my post and it sounds gooooooooooood.

No it doesn't.

Whilst you make a noble point in the globalised world, market forces apply and if you are making a greater revenue for whoever you work for, then the chances are that they will pay you a greater salary. Pilots, for instance, do not all earn the same; the larger the aircraft, the more complex the task, the higher the salary band so why should this premise not be the case for ATCOs?

You also make the point

Heathrow is busy in so much as they move a lot of people on big aircraft, but at the end of the day, they are tower only. Heathrow, being close to London also has high living costs.

Heathrow is busy in so much as it (whether we like it or not) moves a lot of aircraft - none of this lots of people in big planes nonsense. It remains the busiest aerodrome by almost 400 movements a day (obviously I am discounting Silverstone or LF during the Airshow) and it forms a vital part of the UK infrastructure, displayed by the importance that the Government, and the aviation industry, pins on the construction of the third runway. So whilst you might not like it, I don't want all UK ATCOs to get paid the same. However, I DO want all UK ATCOs to get paid fairly for the traffic that they work and it is here that more work needs to be done.

P7

[rogervisual]

Heathrow quite obviously should be one of the highest payed ATCO jobs in the UK.
However it is unrealistic to expect salaries to be decided primarily by the traffic a unit works.Otherwise a unit working 1000 a day on £60000 means a unit working a 100 a day are only going to get £6000 (taking it to the extreme i know) and that would mean HIAL would not get anybody. So in reality a lot of units have to offer salaries not too far behind the big airports in order to attract people and keep staff , regardless of the amount of traffic worked , but that is market forces. When people make a choice to work at unit it is not just down to money. Quality of life , family connections and general lifestyle choice etc. come into it. (contary to the old belief by some ,that if you work at non NATS unit, its because you could not make the grade at NATS.):)

[Not Long Now]

Plus of course if you work for NATS you go where you're sent and choice has very little to do with it.

[classicwings]

I suppose thats why one should always read the paragraph about being a 'mobile grade' before signing the dotted line at the foot of the NATS contract then......:E

[anotherthing]

rogervisual

Heathrow quite obviously should be one of the highest payed ATCO jobs in the UK.quite a bold statement... why do you think that, just out of interest? Do you mean Heathrow Tower, or Heathrow app/dir or both?

[Gingerbread Man]

And then, why are pilots (generally) paid even more than (generally) most of us?

I don't know - why are city traders paid six-figure salaries for what appears to me to be guessing?

Ginger ;)

[Brian81]

I wholeheartedly agree with gingerbreadman, and in response to the earlier posting; I dont (and didn't in my original post) suggest for a second we should all be paid the same - far from it in fact.

My points were how 'they' decide what salary is awarded to what unit and what basis that salary is decided.

All of my earlier points still stand.

I don't want to get unit specific here but, you mention Heathrow having nearly 400 movements a day.

I worked at a London airport (as close to the squaremile as Heathrow) that had closer to 550 movements a day - we were 7am-9pm, 2 runways (crossing), instrument approaches, no class A airspace, no radar (of our own anyway), pop-up traffic, jets up to global express size mixing it with over 350 based light aircraft & a tiny bit of corridoor airspace where every man and his dog transits, we we're short staffed, the equipment (whilst safe and legal) was very old - I was tower and approach procedural & because of short staffing, it was very often bandboxed. For that, back in the day, I got paid £38k. (dont get me wrong, I was grateful for that - but my point being as follows)

Now, granted, Heathrow move a lot of people & their taxiway system & GMC controllers really makes me gasp, they are aerodrome rated controllers, they also have class A airspace, parrallel taxiways, really long runways, losts of tarmac to put aircraft on, multiple radar positions, CAT3B ILS, state of the art equipment, loads of ATCOs to fill a fair few (necessary) positions and they get paid loads more.

Again, just to clarify - This is not a unit to unit slanging match. I'm not saying ATCOs that work at airports as busy as Heathrow should be paid less, far from it, I'm saying that all of us are just as busy in our own ways and are just as vital as the ATC at any airfield are. Obviously unit grading should occur, but on what grading each unit gets, seems to me to be (currently) wrong.

[Gonzo]

Brian, he said 400 movements a day more than any other airfield.

As for 'loads of ATCOs', sadly not!

& because of short staffing, it was very often bandboxed

Yep, that too!:ok:

[Brian81]

hahahaha! :ok: Gonzo; thank goodness you pointed out that before this thread went on and on and on! lol

The place I worked had 6 ATCOs when I was there. I hope LL has more than that! if not; I can start Monday.

Bandboxed how so? I mean Approach & Tower bandboxed in my case

What freqs were bandboxed at LL? What freqs have you got there? I can think of delivery, GMC, TWR north, TWR south. Any others?

Kind regards,

Bri. :ok:

[gibas]

Hi guys!

I'm impressed about your figures, because they are extremly low if you compare them to Spanish ATC wages.

A brand new (0 experience) Tower ATC in Spain, Secondary Aerodrome like BOH or SAM earns around 65-70K € (make the conversion).

Someone on Radar with 15 years experience in Barcelona, Madrid or Canarias TMA can finish the year around 200.000 € after taxes.

The surprise for me is that UK ATC is 500% professional if you compare it to the Spainish one.

This just demostrates that professionalism is an atittude regardless of money.

Keep it up guys, lovely service you provide!!!

[expediteoff]

Ha Ha gibas,

You must appreciate that it's a fine tradition over in the UK not to soil their hands by having such tasteless discussions over such things as being paid the going rate for the job.

In fact, at this very moment they are quietly and selflessly giving up their top class pension scheme because the employer has a bit of a financial problem.

You can't buy professionalism such as this!