QANTAS - Divisional Transfer for 16 SYD CSM

[Domestos]

Not sure if this is true....but I've just heard today that the company announced on Crew Voice for OBM that 16 SYD based CSMs will be transferred to Long Haul under Divsional Transfer arrangments. They have already been given phone calls and their start dates will be the first week of December. They will not transfer as CSMs but must downgrade to FA. The company's reason.....there is an oversupply of CSMs in Short Haul. WHAT A LOAD OF B.S.!!!!!!!!!!! After all the VRs, there are literally hundreds of CSM flying hours in Open Time now!!!!!!

Funny that....the start dates of these 16 conincides with the next training school for A380 which is also first week of December (Decemeber 3rd actually). Obviously, the company will be deploying these transferees hoping that they may upgrade them again on the A380.

SO...............WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS FOR THE REST OF US WHO ARE ON THE DIVSIONAL TRANSFER LIST???????? I am sure there are a lot of FA who are higher up on the transfer list than some of these CSMs???????????????????? Anyone got any more info?????

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote-

"Obviously, the company will be deploying these transferees hoping that they may upgrade them again on the A380."

___________________

Oh for the sanity of all of us tell them they are dreaming.

Even the klutzes running Cabin Crew know that a Purser does not a CSM make.

[GalleyHag]

This from the FAAA today in their weekly newsletter. As usual they couldnt be bothered issuing a notice in regard to this VERY important matter so they hide behind their newsletter.

It is clear the FAAA have zero power when it comes to dealing with the company they had no idea this was even in the wind that is how much the company keeps the FAAA informed.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of hours in open time for CSM's yet we have surplus? Pleeeeease give me a break.

speedbirdhouse - Nothing would surprise me these days so never say never.


Long Haul Placement

We have been advised by the Company that a number of CSMs will be offered a placement to Long Haul as flight attendants. This is related to the Company’s stated surplus of CSMs in Short Haul.

Members should note that the FAAA is NOT in agreement as it is outside the divisional transfer agreement. The Association has informed the Company of the following:

· The FAAA may have considered a proposal to transfer CSMs in category

· The number of CSMs transferred are NOT to form part of the numbers required to transfer this financial year

· If there is a surplus of CSMs then there should be no day off drafting of CSMs during December and into the New Year

[Domestos]

Speedbirdhouse....as you may or may not agree with me....it all comes down to filling empty slots....not quality, when it comes to Qantas. I am not trying to denigrate from the CSMs who are transferring over, as I am sure some of them are very competent on board managers. That is not the issue of discussion of this post. They obviously haven't got enough full time LH crew applying for it, hence the company are dipping into SH ranks now. Contrast this to Singapore Airlines and Emirates....who pick their finest cream to work on their flagship A380.....unfortunately, this is not the case with Qantas. OK, I may be generalising here...but its either 18-20 year olds with limited flying/life experience or its the 55-70 year olds who are seeing out the end of their flying career on the A380. You would like to think the company could have combed through their database of exemplarary crew and picked the best to work on it , wouldn't you?

Got a memo from the FAAA today...the rumour is confirmed. The union says that it is powerless to stop the company from pursuing this transfer as it is "outside the divsional transfer arrangements" and will try and push for this figure of 16 not to be included in the yearly 16 intake into LH. I checked my position on the Div Transfer list and indeed some of these CSMs are junior to me on the list. Oh well, what can I do?:ugh:

So if there is a freeze of recruitment across the company and no new CSMs are made within domestic....who the hell are gonna take the place of the 16+ who have now left due to VR or transfer to LH? Are they gonna make some of us work out of category?????????

[speedbirdhouse]

AFAIC Domestos your A380 crew generalisations are 100% correct.

[superwoman1989]

Has anyone heard if any MEL CSMs offered a transfer?

[mid assist]

There is going to be quite a big restructure of base numbers in the s/h division in the next week or so. I think Cairns base is where you will find the crew will come from. Double daily NRT stop on December 17.

[packrat]

Around 70 LH CC take VR.....and within a week 16 pursers get transferred to LH.
Remove a surplus and create a surplus and then find out you have a shortfall.
The qantas way.....manage resources no further than a week ahead.

[call button]

Does anyone know how many shorthaul crew took VR? I know that everyone who applied for it got it, but was just wondering what the actual numbers were.

[QF skywalker]

A phone all to allocations on Thursday got a response telling me they have no plans for Domestic base transfers at the moment - Possibly not until March 09. A message on CIS will appear advising crew of transfers before they receive a phone call, telling them their base destination.

If no action is taken in the Cairns base I have estimated that after the NRT flying stops there will be a situation where Reserve crew numbers jump from 25 to about 45.

And the surplus is with CSM's ? PFFFFFT !!!! Action the divisional transfer list for flight attendants IMMEDIATELY.

[Domestos]

Here! Here! QF Skywalker I'm with you....Action the divisional transfer list for "F's" sake....there are close to 800 people on this list and the company is preoccupied with picking the lint out of its belly button. I WANT OUT OF DOMESTIC!!!!!! LIKE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

[mid assist]

Hey Skywalker,

The Cairns base size will have to be looked very soon. Where on earth will they find enough flying to keep Res numbers down. It's all going JQ way. With the world economic issues at hand, look for more flying going to JQ.

Mid

[Qstar]

Long haul - first advertises BFA positions now available, but also places note on CIS any BFA who wishes to take leave in the next bid period, please contact them.
See now this is what happens when you have toooooo many slices of PIE !!

Long haul, Short haul, MAM, A380, QCCA, QCCUK , QBKK, QAKL and next QCCD!

No wonder no one know the numbers!!

Qantas years ago made crew redundant in 1988 I think it was then realized they had F&#ked up the numbers and had to re-employ!

:ugh:

[smartalec888]

Domestos and QFSkywalker: would you take QCCA transfer?

[Domestos]

smartalec888.....I would take QCCA anyday....anything to get away from Mothers Club + sh*t box 737 + Sh*tty-Flyer. I don't care if I have to eat dog food and moonlight as a check out chick in a dodgy sex shop in some back alley of Kings Cross......I want out of Qantas Domestic....either via divsional transfer or QCCA, whichever comes first. Of course, as we all know, there is a freeze on recruitment and nothing is happening re div transfers.

Qantas always looks for obscure reasons for getting rid of crew or not actioning divisional transfer list. The reason for the month of November is: "The worldwide price of lesbian albino yak milk has fallen on the stock exchange and this affects Qantas in that it does not allow us to deliver exceptional customer service efficiently and therefore we need to make crew redundant...." blah blah.

Stay tuned folks for the excuse Qantas will give for the month of December. I'm thinking maybe: "There has been an unprecedented decline in the worldwide price of aluminium, and Qantas forcasts that this will have an impact on the price of the foil lids used to cover economy hot meals...therefore, we have decided not to action the divisional transfer list"

[Little_Red_Hat]

If the pay for QCCA was better maybe more people would actually WANT to go across from S/H... I find it funny to watch this back-and-forth of contradicting statements from various higher-ups... amusing.

Maybe I should go do a management degree and apply for a job in the puzzle palace... could spend all day walking around with a 5 cent piece and inspecting aprons to see if they are tied correctly...

Seriously though... does anyone think something will happen soon that actually makes sense??? :p

[Domestos]

Little Red Hat....you'll have to excuse me for my ignorance....but how do you inspect if aprons are tied correctly with a 5 cent piece? Buggered if I know...I seldom wear my apron anyway.....I enjoy the liberation of free-balling. If they made the apron about 2-3 shades lighter than gun metal grey, perhaps I might wear it...but black on black darling is just too much for the eyes to feast on!!!!!! :)

[Little_Red_Hat]

Domestos, if you don't know how love then you're not management material!!!! :}

There should have been a comma, the 5 cent thing was a facetious remark about something mentioned in another thread...

So... any more news from up on high?? More 'I know it's not standard but's perhaps??

[Domestos]

Well the only totally and utterly unfounded gossip that I've heard is that QCCB (Qantas Cabin Crew Biscuitchuckers that is) may start happening in January 2009. It is unlikely anything will happen in December this year as much of the ivory tower pen-pushers will be away for Christmas break (I'm talkin' about the ones with real power....not the ones who write a dicky segment in CCN once a week to get their 15mins of fame). I reckon come new year, when management is back from breaks, things will really start to ham up. There won't be anymore people progressing to LH this year as a class is already booked for first week of Decemeber, and they've already taken 48 in total this year. Bet your bottom dollar that the 250 external applicants currently put on hold from the external freeze will be unfrozen and carted onto the Biscuit conveyor belt to the new entity come January 2009.

A CSM friend of mine called me up today cos he was called up for the special LH intake. He told me that they were "desperate" and only gave him about 3 hours to make a decision (he had until midday to get back to them). I told my friend to take the opportunity, especially if its been handed down to you on a silver lined Mark Newsom tray. I suggested that the positions may be lined up for A380. He said he wasn't prepared to take the risk of downgrading if there was no guaranteed re-upgrade again. Then I suggested...go with your heart and so he did...he didn't take the offer.

I asked my friend why the positions were being offered only to CSMs. My friend posed the same question to his manager......it was because not enough CSMs took the VR package...that is why this cull is being offered. What a load of..........(rotten galaxy apples)!

[Little_Red_Hat]

Interesting news indeed. I had thought the same re: nothing much until Jan.

Silly that the CSMs wanting to go can't go across in category. Stupid stupid. Why they think anyone would do it with no guarantee of being able to go back to the same category they left in, I don't know!! What kind of incentive is that?!

[Domestos]

A LH F/A (now correct me if I am wrong) would make pretty much the same as a SH CSM...depending on seniority and trips of course, so money is not so much a factor in this case. I suppose some who took the offer were a bit confident of themselves, thinking maybe they will get the re-upgrade again, then again, maybe some of them are enjoying the opportunity to travel the world and couldn't give a rat's about being a CSM anymore. Case in point.....some ex AO people who became CSMs when CNS started up...then went to QCCA thinking that they would get a re-upgrade again.....unfortunately this was not the case. Its quite obvious then that once you give up the gold-red-now platinum tie....you let it go forever. Also another case in point...some who were ex-AO Cabin Managers , never got CSM when they became Qantas. So history shows that pretty much, once you downgrade, the stats are against you.

In the history of QCCA....only one QCCA person has been made CSM and 27 made into CSS. That one CSM is my friend...you may be familiar with him..."A.G."

[Little_Red_Hat]

Sure I totally get what you're saying... but isn't that only if they go across on the existing LH conditions... not QCCA... is that what's happening???

[Domestos]

Opps...I think I was being a bit vague in my previous post.

All 48 people who transferred this year will go under part 1 of the International EBA 8.

Ex AO F/A are not eligible to be on the divisional transfer list as they have to serve 2 years before placing their name on the list. That is, 2 years since they got absorbed into QF. So some CNS based CSMs left to go to LH...the only way they could get in was via QCCA. They thought they could walk into their old jobs as CSMs again, but they were unfortunately mistaken.

Currently on the A380, there is a cap of 20% QAL crew and 80% QCCA crew. It is obvious that the company does not want to have the existing LH culture on the A380 so therefore they have put a limit on how many QAL can work on it. Currently as it stands, not many have gone across. All promotions on the A380 for OBM during the start up phase (that is, first 4 aircraft) is reserved purely for QAL crew...after that, it is a free for all. Each A380 requires 100 cabin crew to keep operational within the network...this figure includes 12 CSM and 12 CSS.

You see, Qantas is very smart....they have put a limit on how many QAL crew can work on the A380 and soon they will begin to retire 747...so more and more QAL crew will either have to leave; forced to go join QCCA (that is, part 2 of EBA 8....not secondment), or go to SH.

The company will soon start to freeze the Divisional Transfer List. They are already beginning to freeze the LH Base Transfer list on the 24th Novemeber. Soon, this will spread to freezing SH Base Transfers and eventually Divsional Transfers. The company is very, very smart. We're talking about an 85 year old company who has survived when others have gone financially belly up. Qantas will win in the end...there's no way you or I can stop them....slowly, but surely...they will squeeze every A Scale out of existence and the B Scales will rule.

[Domestos]

Whilst on the topic of A380.....(and I am sorry for steering this thread in a slightly different direction)......

.....a lot of Short Haulers seem to think that the company are in major finger biting, knee bending desperation for crew to work on the A380. Just remember this...we are all sh*t kickers in this job...we are not university honours graduates with skills that the company are begging for....we are replaceable....and ANYONE can be trained to push a cart and open an aircraft door. The company is NOT THAT PERCEIVABLY STUPID to leave themselves open to a shortage....if they really wanted to flex their muscle during times of recruitment freeze...they will shuffle crew across the company about in any way that works for them:

1. Conscript QCCA 747 crew to work on A380

2. Mobilise crew from SH via Div Transfers to fill in gaps left by QCCA mainline crew at LH.

3. Shut down CNS base. Spread the CNS crew around the country...and if there is a crew shortage after that....then the company will then decide to give some domestic flying to Jetstar to meet the shortage.

I bet any money this is what will happen if they decide not to dissolve the recruitment freeze to hire more crew.

[mid assist]

Management have made it well known that they are over crewed in the Cairns Base. Next step will be to balance the numbers around the bases. Once that has been actioned, you'll find all lists will be frozen

[mrpaxing]

happy about this i recommend clause 13 grievance clause. that should give em a run for their money. deafening silence from the LH union. another deal done under the table.

[speedbirdhouse]

Imagine how much fun they'll be to work with down the back on a full 744.............

[Pegasus747]

i actually dont know what the problem is. As far as it being an issue for the LH FAAA was a load of horse SH*t.

The LH FAAA has made it clear that the only way a CSM can transfer in category is if there are an equal number going back the other way. Otherwise it would impact potential promotions in the LH division.

As i have said before we are like the foreign legion here in LH. All are welcome...just fit in and play by the rules.

If the SH CSM's think that they will be up for quick promotion then they need to think again. Statistically SH CSMs have taken about 5-6 years to get CSM in LH as all those that are still applying after years and years....

[Domestos]

Pegasus747...I respect your point that it takes ex Biscuit Chuckers approx 5-6 years to get the stripey jacket again...but I sense that these crew will be ported off to the A380 in no time....they will do a B747 conversion course and then give them an A380 conversion course and then offer them the striped jacket again after training school. The company is not allowed to give striped jackets to QCCA crew for the first 4 aircraft...so who else are they going to give it to if QAL aren't having a morsel of the 'Croissant'? Maybe you know something I don't know????? I pray, do tell all and sundry....sharing is caring!!!! lol. :)

[Domestos]

Just an update....the CSM callout reached no. 220 of the CSMs. They have gotten all 16 CSM now. Even CSMs who put their name down on the list last year got the offer.

[Pegasus747]

In LH we have CSS's that are highly competent onboard managers. In my experience a LH CSS is the equivalent or better equipped that a SH CSM (PURSER)

There are currently plenty of very competent CSS"s already on A380 ready to walk into CSM positions on A380. I would suggest that with no significant International Wide Body double decker experience a SH CSM would be hard pressed to get a gig as a CSM on a 747 without going to CSS first.

And if the company started fast tracking the 16 ex SH CSMs to A380 CSM positions it would be a major morale issue and would probably cause the CSS's to take the option and return to 747 land at the end of the two years where they have a right of return and i know that the company would not want that under any circumstances

[ditzyboy]

Can we please give up the tired rhetoric that SH CSMs are not as capable as LH CSS or CSMs? It goes without saying that most SH CSMs lack the long haul experience of LH CSS ad CSMs. Duh! The vast majority of SH CSMs I worked with on regional flights were more than competent at managing the cabin and abnormal situations. There is always the idiot. Just like a couple of ex-LH CSMs who cannot cope with working on their own in J/C on a 737 - 12 passengers!

This boring old rhetoric has no valid basis - just like the "LH crew are better than SH crew" chestnut. I have seen just as many LH crew make a dog's breakfast of domestic flights (PCF and tandem services - how easy can it be?) as I have of SH crew on regional flights. It all comes down to experience, of which LH crew have more of in relation to international flights. Having flown many international sectors operated by both SH and LH as a pax I can say there is no difference overall, especially in Y/C. Honestly.

I do, however, agree that LH CSMs and SH CSMs should have different titles - given that their training and work environment is different. It would probably avoid the p*ssing contest we witness on here a lot of the time. But the company would loves to add fuel to the LH vs SH fire. Pathetic, really.

Of my soapbox - thanks for listening.

[Shazz-zaam]

Pegasus747,
when it comes to promotion,Qantas management no longer require potential CSM's to have worked as a CSS.
If they harbour any thoughts of promoting the short-haul CSM's they will do it.
The promotional process is not transparent and over the years I have witnessed many individuals promoted well and truely beyond their capabilities .I have been left bewildered by the fact that extremely intellingent and capable CSS have been over looked by the clueless idiots in the office.
If they are going to give these people the "nod", they will. there are no avenues to appeal their decisions. They will say that the process is merit based.
All future CSM's should work as a CSS for at least 12 months, it should be compulsory. It would be great for experience as it would enable future CSM's to solve problems on a larger scale, Up to 356 customers in Y/C .
Fast tracking promotions is a serious mistake. God help the "worlds most experienced airline".

[ditzyboy]

God help the "worlds most experienced airline".

No truer words spoken... Great post, by the way! :ok:

[capt.cynical]

This sort of nonsence has been going on since 1995 & the arrival of the "Bow Tie" and his domestic handbags.:(:ugh:

[Romeo Bravo Zulu]

Plainly the point has been missed

The CSM's are going across on full pay as a CSM
but have the status of a normal FA

In my book thats a pretty good deal same pay less responsibility

is it not?

Cheers RBZ

[seatedandsecured]

Domestos you are full of your own BS

to say that shorthaul CSMs are not capable as the same responsabilities as long haul CSMs is utterly nonsense.

i have worked under both and can i tell you there are bad and good in both bunchies......................sometimes longhaul need to get off their high horses and admit that other people do their job well and sometimes even better....................and we all need to know we are all just flight attendants working for the same idiot company and we just try to make the best of a bad situaution

[Domestos]

Seatedandsecured.......the last time I squeezed my flesh, nothing brown came out....I think you've mistaken me for some other poster....I never said that SH CSMs are incapable of being a LH CSM...I think you are referring to someone else and hence I forgive you for your slight oversight on this occasion.

What I was referring to was that I think it is unfair that these CSMs get to jump over FAs who have been on the list for years, myself included. In addition, all 16 of these CSMs get direct entry to BFA category as there are "no vacancies in the FA category". Oh well...c'est la vie...what can we do? Just shutup and push our muffin carts.

What is baffling though is that (I'm lead to believe by another post) BFAs are being offered LWOP and yet they are taking on these 16 people. Weird !!!!!!!!

By the way Seatedandsecured.....there are more civilised and nicer ways of telling people that you think they are wrong. :)

[TightSlot]

there are more civilised and nicer ways of telling people that you think they are wrong.

Weary Sigh... Yet another QF thread shuffles down the path to abuse, vitriol and personal attacks. Now there's a surprise!

One warning only - this is it.

Thread closures and forum bans will follow instantly for those unable to behave in accordance with the basic tenets of courtesy.

[Pegasus747]

Guys just to let you know that the CSM's transferring from SH to LH as flight attendants will not be paid as CSM's they will be paid as Year 8 flight attendants.

I dont know where the idea that they would be paid as CSM's came from. If that is what they think is happening then their first pay slip will be a big shock to them. Although i think the base pay for a year 8 flight attendant is about the same as a SH CSM so perhapps not much difference

[indamiddle]

domestos,
give the shorthaul union a bell and see if there is a grievance procedure to challenge the transfer. someone mentioned a clause 13 whatever that is.
good luck (maybe there is a clause for every scenario)

[Pegasus747]

You can only grieve matters contained in the EBA and transfers are not a matter contained in the EBA