BAA withdraws Air Atlantique DC-6 landing slot at LHR

[Muaskid]

The BAA has withdrawn its landing slot permission for this coming Friday November 7th for Air Atlantique's DC-6 G-APSA - particularly sad considering the commemoration of the last British Eagle flight in 1968.

One really does wonder at what motivates the BAA decision-making prats ...

The AA official statement reads as follows and is remarkably conciliatory in the circumstances :-

HEATHROW REFUSES ENTRY

With great regret we must announce that we are no longer able to visit Heathrow this Friday, 7 November. We realise that this will be a bitter disappointment to many people.

Operation into London Heathrow, in common with many large airports, requires the allocation of a slot for each movement. Slots for our intended operation were allocated to us last week, at which point we confirmed with our supporters that we would be making the journey. Yesterday, however, we were advised by a representative of BAA, the airport operator, that these slots were to be withdrawn because they were concerned that the operation of the DC6 at Heathrow was potentially disruptive to normal operations. In the course of several commercial charters into Heathrow in recent years, and two previous commemorative flights (including one for BAA), our experience has been that the DC6 does not cause any inconvenience. Moreover, we were able to demonstrate to the relevant ATC unit that the normal approach speeds and operating procedures of this Public Transport certified airliner were in line with current standards and would require no special treatment. We have had the great pleasure over recent years to visit each of the other capital airports in Europe. Regrettably, this busy international airport felt unable, at the eleventh hour, to agree to our visit.

Our flight this Friday was intended to commemorate the last commercial flight, exactly forty years ago, of a British Eagle aircraft on exactly the same route from Rotterdam to Heathrow. The captain of that original flight was to join us. We had hoped that this would be an uplifting event in these turbulent times, to remind people that flying can still be a fun and romantic endeavour. Unfortunately it appears that commercial priorities, or perhaps a misunderstanding of the nature of the DC6, has caused BAA to decide otherwise. We are tremendously grateful to our handling agent at Heathrow, Signature Flight Support, who generously agreed to sponsor our ground arrangements, and to members of the BAA team who arranged that our landing fees would be waived.

The aircraft will return directly from Rotterdam to Coventry within the next few days. We will publish the times accordingly. This will conclude public flying for this season as the aircraft enters scheduled maintenance on 23 November.

We look forward to an exciting new season in 2009 and to meeting more of you throughout next year.

[Rainboe]

Very sad. BAA. Need one say more? When will someone save us from that accursed organisation?

[Bealzebub]

Now now, remember this is the same organisation that was responsible for the stunning launch of Terminal Five earlier this year. When it comes to disappointing the general public, it has no equal.

[WHBM]

Perhaps we need to write to the board of Ferrovial, BAA's Spanish owners, and tell them just how constant BAA incompetence and stupidity drags Ferrovial's name through the mud.

Presumably BAA thought the DC6 crew wouldn't spend enough in the shops.

[forget]

People who cancel such an historic flight for 'slots' can have no sense of 'aviation' - which must make it bloody difficult for them to run an airport. Disgraceful!

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

Remember that these are the same people who, presumably at great expense, put up plastic sheeting around the perimeter fences to (try and) stop people watching the last Concorde flights land... :rolleyes: pathetic :mad:

[Level bust]

It just goes to show how little these bureaucrats understand the historical relevence of these events.

I bet they did not consult ATC to see how little impact a DC6 would have on the operation.

[soddim]

Those who have no respect for their history are destined to repeat the same mistakes made in the past.

[Chris Scott]

How disgusting, and how insensitive of the need to rehabilitate aviation in this country in general, and London in particular. Any other airport operator would have capitalised on the potential publicity of this event. The "Six" epitomises the romance and optimisation of long-haul piston airliners in the 1950s, and is as quiet as an Angel's fart.

How can such ignorant non-aviation-minded people expect to persuade the neighbours and the government to permit the extra runway we so desperately need in the South-East?

[Spunky Monkey]

This is Classic Flight not Air Atlantique?

Another great PR stunt gone wrong for BAA. However would there be anybody better out there to run the airports, when you have to balance, shareholders, the Campaign Against Aviation, meddling MPs and Civil Servants and the Nimbys.

Made all the more difficult by employing a bunch of clowns to run the group. BAA - should be renames BoA - Bunch of Arses:ugh:

[srobarts]

Ferrovial must be just trying to remain afloat in the credit crunch climate. They borrowed £10bn to buy BAA and were struggling to repay that before the credit crunch.
Ferrovial delays £10bn BAA debt deal as profits halve - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/construction_and_property/article3437902.ece)
That said I have just emailed Colin Matthews amd Mike Brown to make my views clear on BAAs decision.

[EagleStar]

Damn....

There goes BA's excuse for cancelling half their schedule on Friday :O


Eaglestar

[Re-Heat]

Perhaps we need to write to the board of Ferrovial, BAA's Spanish owners, and tell them just how constant BAA incompetence and stupidity drags Ferrovial's name through the mud.
I doubt it would help. In previous role, I met one of the current owners of the business, who was in complete and utter denial about the possibility that they might be forced to divest Gatwick - or any other airport for that matter.

The adage about a fool and his money seems particularly apt.

[KERDUNKER]

Pherhap the BAA need reminding of the disruption delays and additional fuel costs incured by airlines when recently they staged two practice days ahead of George Bushes visit...........chaos it was!!

[gehenna]

Yet another example of the incompetence we suffer in this country. The BAA is owned and run by a team of money-grabbing idiots, who have no care for 'service.' Look at the way passengers and crew alike are dealt with when passing through LHR. I give LHR a miss whenever possible.

Such a shame that a historic event like this has been scuppered by a load of fools, but then that's how the country in general is run.

:{:\:E

[PAXboy]

I suspect that, in common with 90% of modern companies, anything that is outside 'normal' and 'standard' is automatically presumed to cost more in time and money. Therefore, it should be rejected.

In the same mode, I recall an A-list Hollywood actor pointing out that the people who run the studios don't care if they are making movies or baked beans - as long as it makes money. So BAA are not alone.

[Skipness One Echo]

What do you expect from the retail focused management at BAA? They genuinely have no idea about aviation, anything outside the shop confuses them.

[Capot]

It is pointless to criticise BAA for their lack of any comprehension of the aviation industry and its priorities, of which the highest is the expeditious, safe movement of passengers from A to B.

They are shopping mall operators, no more and no less. As someone has suggested, a DC6 does not feed the malls with hundreds of gullible and, let's face it, very stupid victims buying useless tat at prices inflated way above the high street prices, "duty-free" goods on which there is no duty in the first place, and "duty-free" goods at prices which necessarily include the duty due on those goods.

The historical significance of the event would have meant no more to Heathrow's owners than the fate of the Spanish Armada.

[G-ARZG]

Hopefully any journo's aware of this are already penning
scathing pieces about this lates BAA foot-shooting exercise.

Any newshounds out there picking up on this one?

[BEagle]

Miserable faceless idiots.

I had the misfortune to travel through that abysmal shopping mall with aeroplanes last Sunday - never again!

Here are some contact details for anyone wishing to contact them:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/baa.jpg

General enquiry tel. no. for BAA LHR is 0870 000 0123.

More info at BAA Heathrow: Welcome to Heathrow Airport | Parking | Terminal 5 (http://www.heathrowairport.com/) under 'Contact us'.....

(They can't even get their web links sorted.......)

[stormin norman]

Typical BAA, not surprising their wallowing in debt.

Im just glad ther not organizing drink ups in breweries (or are they ?)

[forget]

Any newshounds out there picking up on this one?

Algy, You there? Front and centre - smartish, if you don't mind.

[tczulu]

This will be the same BAA that let John Travolta land his 707 at Heathrow a few years back.Air Atlantique obviously didn't GREASE enough palms!Sorry,couldn't resist it.

[Stationair8]

I thought you guys won the big war in 1945, but it seems poor old England gets run by some dictating pen pusher in the EU or by the Spanish.

Next you guys will banned from driving your right hand drive cars on your home soil!

Long live the mighty DC-6!!!!

[411A]

Goes to show...LHR is truly at the very bottom of the list of UK/European airports, service-wise.

Only the ATC handling remains reasonable.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from 411A:
Only the ATC handling remains reasonable [at LHR].
[Unquote]

I hope you London controllers are reading this. I do believe that was a rare, if grudging, compliment!

Less lightheartedly, 411A, the chorus of protest here does show that we Brits recognise a fine ship, even one which we didn't invent ourselves.

Some of our cousins might occasionally reciprocate that sentiment...

Chris

[OPS1329]

VERY disappointing - The person(s) responsible for cancelling the slots should be ASHAMED!

The DC-6 would have little or NO effect on traffic flow and the decision has more than likely been taken with little thought by those concerned. It would be no different for example than a PA31 Navajo or similar operating into the airport (if an operator could afford it)

Like many others who have posted, I have to agree that the BAA seems only to be interested in getting people into their terminals to spend money at often rip-off prices. I have had the recent misfortune to travel through en route to Moscow and it was not one of my more enjoyable experiences!

I'm sure this would have given BAA and LHR some good publicity in the press but in their wisdom they decided to decline and I for one hope that it now brings adverse publicity accordingly .. SHAME ON YOU!!

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Could not those wonderful guys in ATC invite a low approach and overshoot ? "Just to check the gear was down and correctly positioned" Without touching that bespoiled turf that was once Hounslow Heath, previously the haunt of highwaymen and footpads ?
Be lucky
David

[Opssys]

Extracts from a blog the Author of which shall rename nameless :8:
BAA Heathrow Refuses British Eagle Tribute Flight (http://dih-itim.*************/2008/11/baa-heathrow-refuses-british-eagle.html)

Whilst this crass last minute decision by the BAA to refuse to allow this tribute flight to operate, has the Idle Man 'spitting feathers' others are close to apoplexy!

At a time when the BAA needs to win friends and influence people, this decision will lose friends and alienate people, well done chaps!
<More Text>
Included in this was satisfying Air Traffic Control that the DC6 could conform to the relevant requirement and this was achieved, plus obtaining the required Airport Slots and again these were granted.

In addition the planning was positively helped by BAA Staff who arranged for Landng Fees to be Waived and by Signature Flight Support the Handling Agents who agreed to waive handling fees.

Yet two days ago the BAA withdrew the Airport Slots because they were concerned that the operation of the DC6 at Heathrow was potentially disruptive to normal operations.

As every effort had been made to ensure that the DC6 operation would be no more potentially disruptive than any other Heathrow Flight, this is balderdash!
End Extracts

The press doesn't seem to be picking this up, obviously too busy!

[1970s Spotter]

One hopes that the press WILL pick this one up. I would like to think that the good folk at The Six (http://www.thedc6.com) would have notified various media companies of the DC6's impending arrival.

I feel sure that the Flight Internationals and Aeroplane Magazines of this world would certainly be aware. Cynically I'd like some of the media big-boys to be having to re-arrange their schedule/waste money because of the CAA's problem with significant aviation history - then the message might get out to the wider, non-aviation world.

If so this would disprove the statement that "any publicity is good publicity" as this (hopefully) would be a very tricky one for the CAA's PR boys (girls) to handle.

I'm very disappointed, I was all ready to be staring out of the window at 1400 on Friday.

Sigh....................

[Opssys]

Flight Global has picked up the story. But other than that, I haven't seen any coverage.
As this is a HHA (History, Heritages and Aviation) story the media was not interested as they are only allowed one a month and as this is 90th Anniversary of WWI , that is their quota filled. Anyway they believe that covering So Called Celebrities Behaving Badly is much more likely to sell their Paper!

[srobarts]

Credit where credit is due. Mike Brown (BAA Chief Operating Officer Heathrow) has found the time to reply to my email expressing my disappointment in the withdrawal of the landing slot for the DC6.
Sadly the response serves only to continue the line that "To operate
nostalgia or other flights of this type is totally inappropriate at such an
airport." No understanding of the missed positive publicity.
Ah well.

[BEagle]

"To operate nostalgia or other flights of this type is totally inappropriate at such an airport."

Utter horse$hit! If FRA can cope with the Lufthansa Ju52 on regular occasions, why are BAA unable to cope with the DC6?

It just makes me even more determined than ever that I shall NEVER fly from that overpriced, shambolic apology for an airport unless there's absolutely no alternative.

[DB6]

FRA is not 'such an airport' then; it's a decent one. I'm flying to Cairo soon and had the choice of two flights, one via Paris and the other via Heathrow. Never even checked the price of the latter.

[chevvron]

Lets's hope the newspapaers pick this up; they always like to have a dig at the 'BAA'.

[Opssys]

Mike Brown (BAA Chief Operating Officer Heathrow)'s response of
To operate nostalgia or other flights of this type is totally inappropriate at such an airport.Is interesting on several counts:
The DC6 has Operated a commemorative flight for the BAA from LHR
If this was the policy, why were slots initially granted and arrangements made to waive landing and other fees?
If the DC6 was carrying an AOG Spare, or a commercial cargo, would this have meant it was OK?Most Airports however large, or busy will do their up most to accommodate the occasional flight of this nature, Buut I suppose when your are primarily a Retail Property Developer, its easy to forget your supposed to really be an Airport Operator..

[PaperTiger]

If the DC6 was carrying an AOG Spare, or a commercial cargo, would this have meant it was OK?I guess so:
Photo ATMA Antonov AN-12 UN-11012 (http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=642512)

Can't be any faster than a Six, surely ?

[007shuntress]

:cool:
No one has hit on exactly what the BAA REALLY stands for ...
Bastards Against Aviation
No further comment required I think

[Chris Scott]

It may be of interest to see the current BAA line, in response to an e-mail I sent to the BAA's Heathrow Media Centre earlier, at
[email protected].

My e-mail, at 1630z ¾

Dear Sirs and Mesdames,
The BAA has seen fit to cancel a rare (and probably final) visit tomorrow by one of the aviation icons of the 1950s, one of the aircraft types that pioneered modern long-haul air travel. I refer, of course, to the DC-6; and the agreed visit by Air Atlantique's G-APSA.
This cancellation has provoked much comment in aviation circles; including PPRuNe, where I first heard about it.
There is a strong consensus that the BAA:
(a) is unique among airport operators in failing to recognise a chance to publicise itself and demonstrate a bona-fide commitment to aviation heritage, rather than simple profit;
(b) is demonstrating a lack of flexibility alien to the majority of its fine operations staff at Heathrow;
(c) should be doing its best to rehabilitate the image of aviation in this country, particularly in view of the necessity to persuade the public and government to approve the desperately-needed third runway;
(d) in its failure to realise the above, is likely to alienate many aviation professionals, who – having supported it for decades in its different forms – will not mourn its demise.
Chris Scott
(retired aviator)

Their reply, at 1645z ¾
Hello Chris,
Thanks for your email. Heathrow is very congested, operating at almost full capacity every day. Our priority is maintaining the operation and smooth running of the airport.
Kind regards,
Heathrow Media Centre
Tel: 020 8745 7224
Fax: 020 8745 6061

I might have added:

The BAA, the current incumbent of what amounts to an aviation heritage site as well as a major contributor to the UK economy, is also displaying a lack of any sense of history; and a mean-spirited lack of gratitude to the industry on whose past and present motivation its revenues depend.

But that would also have been wasted on them, no doubt.

[DCS99]

Chris Scott and others have worded it more eloquently than me, but this proves the current BAA Management are not Aviation lovers.

ca. 20 years ago, a former-colleague of mine at BA, now a Training Captain at BMI, Capt. R.M. arranged a DC-3 Charter - and at very short notice got clearance to do a low flypast over LHR. A fantastic gesture and a fantastic day out.

If ATC have given clearance for this DC-6 movement, then what is the problem?

Come over to Zürich instead, you'll be given a warm welcome I promise.

[GBALU53]

CHRIS SCOTT

Well done for sending them and e-mail.

What a load of rubish they reply with Heathrow being at almost capicity.

The aircraft was granted a slot for arrival and departure so what is there problem?

Not getting a landing and departure fee was that the problem?

All I can say is the BAA get what they deserve on this another bad bit in the press and i hope it is a big spread.

All the best for the Atlantique Classic Flight for trying to give the ex employers of British Eagle some thing else to remember there time with Harold all those years ago.

[chevvron]

ATC could even slot it in on the departure runway if it gets busy with other arrivials.

[Captain Airclues]

LHR is not up to full capacity during the airlines winter schedules.

The press will not pick up on this as they never monitor 'Aviation History and Nostalgia' or 'Spectators Balcony'.

Dave

[Tonka Toy]

I'm trying to find a phone number for the chairman of the BAA board so you can all ring him and tell him what concerns you all. half two in the morning should do it.

As for Mike Booth, no change there, and if I may say; you run a crap airport.

-Figured out how to wash the windows in T5 yet? No of course you haven't, it's a bit beyond your brain capacity isn't it.

And remember, its now official, your airport, and I quote is a 'national embarassment' - that means you! - incase you hadn't twigged.

Whilst I think about it, why would we grace such an embarassment with part of our national heritage?

It's a bit like sitting down in some bad dog do isn't it?

:mad:

[treadigraph]

A heaven sent opportunity for BAA to get some great publicity for which other people are mostly paying so far as I can see... I simply don't get it. And yet in 1996 they had a whole parade of aircraft perform a flypast from Dragon Rapide to MD-11 to celebrate 50 years of Thiefrow. How times change... :(

After the DC-3 debacle, Mike Collett and his team at Classic Flight must be fed up with being kicked in the teeth by characterless bureaucrats for whom aviation must be a confounded nuisance.

The DC-6 at Biggin Hill was one of the finest displays I saw this year, what a wonderful operation and I hope CF can keep her going for ever, in spite of those who would obstruct.

[Opssys]

So the 40th Anniversary of British Eagle ceasing operations which should hav been marked by a DC6 in British Eagle Livery arriving at LHR, instead will pass unheralded.

LHR by leaving the Decision to refuse Slots until so near the day of planned operation, has meant there has been no time to marshal opposition and media interest to a level which might have forced a BAA re-think.

So no matter how much we who care about this, rail against this crass decision, BAA LHR know we can do nothing about it and I suspect some in that organisation will view our impotent rage with amusement.

A sad day for those who worked for, or remember British Eagle with affection and even sadder because once again heritage and aviation history has lost out because an organisation that should have embraced an opportunity for some good PR and to remind people of its own heritage instead took the myopic view.

[WHBM]

I always thought one of the objects of having a slot committee, which I believe has some statutory basis behind it, rather than letting BAA themselves decide who comes in and who does not, was to ensure that slots were distributed impartially. This is part of the regulatory environment BAA work in for having a monopoly of the larger London airports.

The slot committee decided this flight could have a slot.

As other aspects (eg handling) had been covered appropraitely, it does seem to me that BAA have exceeded their legal authority, and that the CAA should investigate such an abuse.

Anyone at the CAA care to pass this one up the line ?

[Chris Scott]

The demise of the much-admired British Eagle was not unexpected, but the sudden brutality of the actual event, particularly the effect on its staff, was shocking.

As a young copilot at Gatwick flying Herons and Daks for what had just been re-structured as BUIA (from Morton's), in the aftermath of a nasty union dispute in the BUA group under a Mr Bristow, it finally brought home to me the vulnerability of any of us working for independent operators.

Now that there are no longer any silver spoon-fed airlines in the UK, everyone is potentially in the same boat. What has not changed is the old adage that, in aviation, you need to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

Anyone who ever takes the money and the aeroplanes for granted may be in for a shock.

That includes the BAA. Good fortune to all of you in these rough times.

[ZFT]

It was pretty unexpected for us working there at the time. The canceling of the Bermuda route on, if I recall correctly the day before the normal winter loan to tide things over until the summer season pretty much sealed our fate.

I had a fantastic indoctrination into aviation at British Eagle and have nothing but fond memories of my time there.

Unbelievable to realise that it is now over 40 years since I was first made redundant!!

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

A heaven sent opportunity for BAA to get some great publicity for which other people are mostly paying so far as I can see... I simply don't get it.
It's quite simple, really. From now on, anything, absolutely anything that anybody wants from BAA, will be met with the Pavlovian response "cannot be accommodated without a third runway" (regardless of whether that's relevant or not). :rolleyes: :ugh:

[tarrant]

Gentelmen
I have elsewhere on this site thanked you for your positive support regarding our disappointment.
This year being the 40th anniversary of the closure of British Eagle the events of the past year have been a great success. We really have appreciated the co-operation of Air Atlantique in helping us to mark this occasion by painting G-APSA back into Eagle colours.
The Eagle events started with the re-enactment of G-APSA flying into Blackbushe, the airport into which it first flew on its arrival to the UK in 1958. It then departed for Farnborough airshow with our founder chairman Mr Harold Bamberg on board. It then, as you will know, flew to a number of airshows to be seen by many in its British Eagle colours.
The european tour was a great success. We were welcomed with open arms at the Innsbruck Air Fest, an airfield to which SA flew in the 50/60's. The aircraft was the star of the event, many hundreds past through the aircraft. It was to ex Eagle employees a very moving moment to see the Eagle symbol back at an airport where its return was really appreciated. At Tempelhof it stood as a memorial to the civilian crews who lost their lives during the Berlin airlift and was one of the last aircraft to leave before the airport was finally closed. The arrival at Rotterdam was in readiness for its final salute to a great independant airline. Many of you have rightly expressed you views of the BAA who put a stop to this final salute. I know from emails and telephone conversation that many ex Eagle staff planned to be present at the airport to watch this event. All I want to say here is I as the archivist find it very difficult to understand why such a desiscion was made. I would like to ask if the person who axed it, if he would be willing to explain in detail his thinking. Please do not tell us it was for operational reasons you granted the slots.

Our reunion in October was a great success some 150+ ex employees gather for what was a memorable evening.

Later next week we are holding an event at Speke Liverpool to celebrate the 50th anniversary of G-ANCF the Bristol Britannia, now being restored and eventually to be painted into British Eagle colours.

[Chris Scott]

Hello tarrant,

Condolences re G-APSA. Sorry to have missed all its appearances this year, and had high hopes for the LHR opportunity. British Eagle deserved a last hurrah at its old base (many of us were envious of it being there). Good to hear Mr Bamberg is still up and running.

How far will the restoration of the Brit go? Speke is a long drive for me, but it would be worth it merely to hear the dulcet tones of 4 Proteuses taxiing again, even from the perimeter fence... [4 Double Wasps would come a very close second.]

[fdcg27]

Why do you allow some private firm to control access to your primary airport?
In the US, there would have been no problem.
If there were a problem, legions of American enthusiasts would have made whatever "authority" was involved work it out.
Don't blame BAA, since they only do what you allow them to do.
Take back control of your own country!
It belongs to you, not some bunch of EU MBAs.

[Mr_Grubby]

So what type of aircraft flew this Rotterdam - Heathrow leg back in 1968 ?

The British Eagle web site says the last flights British Eagle made were with two Britannia’s; G-AOVG, a passenger flight from Paramaribo in Dutch Guinea, and G-AOVM, a cargo flight from Israel.

Their last DC 6 was sold June 9th '64

When the Company collapsed they had :- 13 Britannia, 7 BAC 1-11, 3 Viscount and a Dove.

Clint. :confused:

[BEagle]

Flew UK-FRA today... As I have done on 18 other occasions this year.

NOT from Thiefrow though.

Nor will I ever again unless there's literally no other option.

Soulless miserable so-and-so's at Bad Attitude Airports - I sincerely hope that everyone who can do so will boycott their tawdry and over-priced shopping malls with aeroplanes.

[ZFT]

Mr Grubby,

Plus 2 X 707-138Bs, one of which is still active in The DRC I believe?

[bean]

G-AOVG flew in from RTM after dropping the passengers from Paramaribo