Vietnam Airlines slashes Expat salaries

[nom de plume]

Vietnam Airlines newly appointed VP (Former Chief Pilot) proposes substantial salary cuts for all foreign pilots at VNA.

Although details are a little sketchy, the salary cuts are expected to take immediate effect following an upcoming meeting with the various agencies who have been summoned to Vietnam for the announcement.

It’s interesting to note that the cost of living in Vietnam has risen over 30% in the past two years and is not showing any signs of stopping its upward climb.

At a time when Vietnam Airlines had finally established a stable work-force, this is definitely a step in the wrong direction. A mass exodus in the near future would be worth betting on.

[captplaystation]

In an ideal world I agree, but where to in the current climate ?
That is exactly why these guys are making this move, as they know that people have limited options (at least in the short term).
I could imagine others ( India for instance) attempting the same tactics.
Not nice not fair. . but is it ever ? :=

[nom de plume]

This is the problem with these idiots, they only think in the short term. They don't consider the consequences of upsetting an experienced work force.

True, today there may be limited opportunities, but this WILL CHANGE SOON. Then, managers like this will discover the overwhelming cost of rehiring a mass number of pilots, and training them. Not to mention the additional costs associated with "new staff" whilest they are adjusting to the operating environment and company "culture".

All in all, this type of managerial behaviour is about as stupid as it gets and does nothing but demonstrate their ignorance.

[B737NG]

Where do you think the work force will move? There are not too many attractive Airlines around who guaranty you the salary goes up with the living costs and treat you nice.

In may cases in the past it did not work out when Guy`s got up the ladder into a VP position and they thought they invent the wheel new. They caused more demage to the Core instead of finding solution to enhancen the strengh of a outfit. I am with you that VNA will be weaker later due to the damage done by destroying a good moral. The next step is stopping the development and concentrate on demage control instead of going on and position the Airline in a better position then the Competetors. They will be thankful to the boost they get. After all is down the drain the root cause is never identyfied to save the VP`s face and he get`s promoted to the Sen.VP and all starts over again.

30% increase in living costs is the price you pay for trading labour into Vietnam and let the economy grow. For everything what happens you have to face some consequences, good is that the Vietnamese GDP was rising the last few years and people praised it, the flip side of the coin is that this spread even down to the Noodle soup and the price is higher then it was in the past. There would be more to this but bottom line is saight. Quo vadis??

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[captjns]

If the paycuts are in fact true for crewmembers, them hopefully the effected expats at VNA will tell mgt. go sh!t in their hats and beat feet home.

[icarus sun]

A tactic likely to be copied by other airlines that employ expats. At present they have no place to go other than unemployment.:ouch:

[nom de plume]

I doubt it. They just gave their local pilots a substantial pay INCREASE.

What's even more interesting is that the management just recently began to implement many cost savings policies, for example a fuel savings policy that the expats pilots have been suggesting for over a DECADE.

An over looked fact is that most of the expat pilots operate VN's aircraft with at least some level of consciousness towards cost. To describe the locals; mostly not conscious, least of all consciously thinking. I suppose that’s why they fall asleep and need a few air force fighters to wake them up. (And countless other incidents that the Vietnamese mitigate, cover-up or blatantly lye about) Oops, off topic but emphasises the point quite well me thinks.

[NoJoke]

Its the age old story. In the down turns management kick the pilots. In the up turn do the pilots really recover that which was lost? Although it is unpopular, we need a 'union'(s) that can bridge the massive gap between us and them. 'Do unto others ....'

[nom de plume]

A union! Do you mean an organization of pilots who have banded together to achieve common goals in key areas such as wages, hours and working conditions, complaint procedures, promotion, workplace safety and policies type of a union?


Just a reminder, Vietnam is still communist when it comes to the treatment of people and paying any salaries or benefits.


They do want to play in many of our clubs – WTO, WHO, ASEAN, ETC – but when it suits them, they rise up the big red and yellow (Yellow – an American parallel for spineless) star and put journalists and priests in prison, and of course remind us that Unions are forbidden in Vietnam.

[NoJoke]

I know. A total pipe dream; even in the 'free' world. However, the idea still rings true and terrifying to most management.

[nom de plume]

Ever notice that the really good companies don't need unions. Factually, it's only the Napoleonic managed groups of companies that require them.

[Dream Land]

They just gave their local pilots a substantial pay INCREASE Yes, a 100% pay increase for locals, this move will tend to bite them in the a**, there are several other operators in the area that pay better, if they do decrease the salaries, it will be time to dust of the CV! :ugh:

[Jimmy Do Little]

Don’t mince your words; tell us how you really feel! :oh:

[Luke Darkstar]

I understand the upset. And yes: upset expats are faster gone (there ARE alternatives) than new pilots hired and trained... well done, aircrafts on the ground are very nice aircrafts... and when they are in the air again, I doubt that VAC will be pleased with the result. They shouldn't change a running system. This 100 x 10% pay savings doesn't really make any difference for them compared to the gains and losses of an airline operation.

Pay peanuts - get monkeys!

Even when it is "not allowed" to build up an union in Vietnam, it might be worth it to build up a common base for expats to communicate, exchange views and experiences and to elaborate reactions.

[airsupport]

I was there when they operated their very first Western aircraft, as opposed to Russian lead sleds, and I am surprised they still have any expats, I would have thought they would be all Vietnamese Pilots by now.

Is they guy you mean Truang (I think that is the spelling), the guy that dropped the bomb on his own side near the end of the War?

[nom de plume]

I would have thought they would be all Vietnamese Pilots by now I can not even imagine the choas that would be! Imagine the over populated australian prisons with all the Vietnam Airlines pilots illegal smuggling / trafficing activities!

[Devils Advocate]

In Vietnam one would have thought that procuring the delivery of 1/4oz of high-speed lead into someone's ear would be something that's both relatively inexpensive and easily procured?! :E

[Dream Land]

Is they guy you mean Truang (I think that is the spelling), the guy that dropped the bomb on his own side near the end of the War?Capt Trung, B777, will probably operate the first flight to the USA when that occurs, decorated war hero, his son is now an A320 pilot too.

[411A]

SVA tried this nonsense with expats and cancelled retirement benefits in the mid-eighties...so many walked off that the company then needed to hire more folks, at even higher salaries, tripled the training budget, and the folks remaining went on overtime.
A big mistake which took two years to rectify.

Lessons learned a long time ago elsewhere are promptly ignored by many new companies on the block.

[airsupport]

Capt Trung, B777, will probably operate the first flight to the USA when that occurs, decorated war hero, his son is now an A320 pilot too.

That depends on your point of view. :rolleyes:

He took off from Saigon one day shortly before the end of the war, dropped his bomb on his own (South Vietnam) Palace and flew to Hanoi (the then enemy).

Mind you none of us back then (1992-1993) actually called him a traitor to his face when he was flying as one of our F/Os, he was quite useful in getting things done.

[jesus.christ.vn]

Yes we know VNA Mgt wants to cut pay.
Yes the various facts are stated and have been argued.
For the Expats, what do we do about it?

Ultimate decision stands with ourselves.
To stay and take the paycut or to leave.

But before it comes to that, what can we do about it to help influence the decison.

Any ideas?

[Human Factor]

Where do you think the work force will move?

No doubt some will retire to the pensions they built up at various majors around the world.

[efatnas]

Can anybody tell me what the salaries in that part of the world are anyway? Looks like Ill run out of money in a few months and here in the USA jobs are not really out there.

[NVpilot]

Can anybody tell me what the salaries in that part of the world are anyway? Looks like Ill run out of money in a few months and here in the USA jobs are not really out there.
Net $10,800.00 / mos, standard 6/3 schedule, A320 CA.

[Luke Darkstar]

>>Ultimate decision stands with ourselves.
To stay and take the paycut or to leave.

But before it comes to that, what can we do about it to help influence the decison.

Any ideas?<<

Yes, you are right, there should be any reaction. But I am not sure if any expat pilots is able to influence the decisions of the management of VAC. They won't be amused to invite any of the expats to a nice tea and biscuit and ask for a common solution.

Or is anyone such a good friend to the upper ones??? Then he should try and make them aware of the risks they are running into.

Maybe it all rests with the agencies. They are the only ones who have any power. We work for them, so as soon as they say "stay home and do not go to work, because there are certain problems arising with VAC", it would be the only move which might have any influence on VAC. I once experienced this way of "trouble shooting" with a former agency I worked for.

[jesus.christ.vn]

Dear all,

now all of you pilots under threat of getting a paycut pay attention.

What we can do:

1. Get all our friends who are considering the agencies to retract their applications. Tell them the truth about higher cost of living and the impact of reducing our pay.

2. Contact whoever we can on the Vietnamese Govt, Embassy, VNA mgt etc to ask them to do something about it. Spread the word. It is as much a political game as any. If you have influence with any PRESS get them to write about this.

3. Pledge never to support the individual who proposed this in his or her endeavour to rise in the ranks of the airline. If there is another upcoming Vietnamese leader, support him. Enemy of my enemy is my friend.

4. Keep finding stuff to fault his decision and by George Publish it.

5. Operations is not the only cost centre many other departments are the true cause of losing money.
-Less passengers actually means marketing has failed.
-Fuel price hike means purchasing has failed to hedge the prices when it was low. ie no insight.
-I dont need to say how pilferage affects the company.
GIVE THEM REASON TO PUNISH OTHER DEPARTMENTS NOT THE PILOTS.

Not all involved can afford to lose their jobs, so we all need to be understanding and WORK TOGETHER on this.

We should start doing this as soon as possible.

IN GOD WE TRUST

[okejohn]

I was under the impression that Expat pilots were under contract for 1-3 years. Does that contract not guarantee your pay for that time period?

[THRidle]

I'm still worried about " In God We Trust"

[vikena]

jesus,

I think you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

How exactly do you propose to organise workers who dont have a job and names you dont know?

v

[captjns]

Pay issue is not between pilot and VNA... It's between the pilot and contracting agency(ies). The crews receive payment in accordance with their contracts. It’s up to the contracting agencies to come up with alternative actions the crews can avail themselves.

Consultation with an international labor/contract attorney may be recommended before acting out of anger.

[KC135777]

April 17, 2000
The Defector
By DAVID LIEBHOLD

Early in the morning of April 8, 1975, while most Saigonese were on their way to work, a South Vietnamese pilot named Nguyen Thanh Trung stole an American F-5 fighter plane and dropped two bombs through the roof of the Presidential Palace. It was the most spectacular defection of the war and a harbinger of the North Vietnamese victory three weeks later. "It was a major nail in the coffin, psychologically," recalls Gil J. Watts, a former G.I. who was running a business in the city at the time.

The bombing gained Trung a place of honor in the newly unified communist state--and a successful career. Today, at 52, he is the chief pilot for Vietnam Airlines, flying a Boeing 767 on international routes. Trung claims he planned the bombing for 12 years, to avenge the death and desecration of his father, a Viet Cong member, at the hands of the South Vietnamese army. In May 1969, he had secretly joined the Viet Cong--just a day before enlisting in South Vietnam's air force.

Sneaking away with the F-5 was not easy, since even the smallest sorties involved three jets. "After we had been cleared for takeoff, I gave the leader the signal for electrical trouble," says Trung, pouring tea in the sitting room of his modest home in Ho Chi Minh City. "He signaled back that I should stay behind." When the other two aircraft had taken off, Trung waited 10 seconds and then departed himself. He headed for downtown Saigon and destroyed the center of the palace. (President Nguyen Van Thieu escaped unhurt.)

Mission accomplished, Trung flew north and landed the plane at a Viet Cong-controlled airstrip in Phuc Long province, near the Cambodian border. He was taken by jeep into the jungle, where he changed into a Viet Cong uniform. Two days later he was made a captain and presented with a radio. "I don't feel very proud about my role in the war," says Trung. "I just did the correct thing to end the war and the killing as quickly as possible."

With reporting by Ken Stier/Ho Chi Minh City

[captjns]

Great story... but not the show stopper to ended the war... ops not really a war but conflict... oops Robert McNamara's ego trip that cost numerous American lives... and for what??? But wait there's more... the Nixon administration along with an ego-maniacal putz by the name of Hank Kissenger who was more interested in their achievements rather than the additional loss of lives.

[Samuel Adams]

...oops the frenchie "conflict" that JFK decided to play with... but JFK was a Dem, wasn't he? So we must stop at Nixon...

[captjns]

Well... I think it was good old GOP Ike that started with the advisers in Nam, then yes... Dems JFK, and LBJ, and finally... yep you guessed it... Good old Tricky Dick... another GOP kind of guy.

[KC135777]

US ADVISORS IN VIETNAM 1955-1965 (http://www.olive-drab.com/od_history_vietnam_advisors.php)

VietnamWar.com:Vietnam War - President John F. Kennedy's Role in the Vietnam War (http://www.vietnamwar.com/johnkennedyrole.htm)

Battlefield:Vietnam | History (http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/history/index.html)

[Qanchor]

This could be a smokescreen.
Vietnam Airlines enjoys protection on a large number of their routes, loads have always been good and international fares expensive. Lack of revenue is not the problem, quite possibly the opposite. So what's happened?
A short study of business in Vietnam will reveal that every now & then a large financial shortfall will appear. This often happens without warning or sufficient (read, credible) explanation.
As with most asian countries there is always an ulterior motive and when it comes to money, greed and corruption are common bedfellows.
It's true the local drivers have been promised/offered a 30%+30%+30% payrise and this money must (has to be seen to) come from somewhere. I suspect that once the expat paycuts have been achieved the local guys will be disappointed to learn their promised payrise has been with withdrawn. The black hole must be filled, and quietly.
Unfortunately, the expats are faced with a simple but unpalatable choice. Wear the paycut or vote with your feet.
Another characteristic of the Viets is that they have absolutely no anticipation. Crewing numbers have never been sufficient, (every day several aircraft pushed up on the fence), and resignations by expats will exacerbate an already critical situation. Which right now they will not be considering.
This will result in them advertising again for expat pilots and offering pre paycut (or better) wages. Sadly this won't happen before disrupting the lives of many good people.
The former CP has a vision of an all local crew airline. In which case one could reasonably expect to see an increase in "smoking holes". I pray this doesn't happen.
Rant over, best wishes and good luck to all...:ok:

[airsupport]

Trung waited 10 seconds and then departed himself. He headed for downtown Saigon and destroyed the center of the palace. (President Nguyen Van Thieu escaped unhurt.)

When we were there 1992-1993 you could tour the Palace and see where he dropped his bomb load, basically missed his target mainly.

He flew as an F/O on our B767, very handy some times especially in Hanoi.

We were approaching Hanoi one flight and being messed around no end, forced to hold way out for local traffic, a few words from Trung in Vietnamese over the radio and we were cleared for immediate priority approach.

I always found him to be quite a nice person, as long as you could overlook the fact he was a Traitor.

[Metro man]

A 100% increase in local pilot salaries may not be all that much depending on how badly paid they are in the first place.

Unfortunately the pay cut sets a bad precedent for the rest of us in this part of the world and I'm sure we'll hear "You're lucky we're maintaining salaries, other airlines are cutting them.'' at our next pilots meeting.

A rapid voting with the feet and the resulting flight cancellations would be the best outcome from our point of view as you can bet management at other operators are waiting to see if VNA get away with it.

India is slowing down for expats, but the sand pit should still be worth a look.

[ClimbSequence]

Can anybody tell me the current salary for an ATR driver???

Thanks in advance

[nom de plume]

I will take the liberty of publishing a PM which I today recieved, but of course, shall remove the senders identity.

Hello Nom de Plume,
Are you French by any chance? Sorry, just pure curiousity, off the record that is. Je ne devrais pas confirmer.

Just wondered, as you're on the spot what you would suggest. After 4 months I finally finished all paper work, and XXXXX is inviting me for a sim. Don't know what to do, really. Too many negative changes there at the moment. Therefore, my dear colleague, what would you suggest? You know this answer. Go somewhere where they will respect your contract.

are there any other airlines in the region that might be better (yes, I am quite interested in the region for a long time now, just have to go there).
Many thanks in advance, XXXXXXXXXX There are many. one example is Shenzhen Airlines recruiting 54 foriegn pilots to live in Guangzhou, China and will pay 11,700 after taxes with bonus of $10,000 each year.

Vous devez considérer soigneusement, alors aller ailleurs. :rolleyes:

[maui]

Air support.

To call a deep cover operative a traitor to the side he seeking to undermine is a misuse of the word.

A traitor changes sides. I believe this guy was VC all the way.

Were all the British operatives in Vichy France traitors?

M

[airsupport]

To call a deep cover operative a traitor to the side he seeking to undermine is a misuse of the word.

A traitor changes sides. I believe this guy was VC all the way.

I don't know what spin has been put on this now, probably a whole new story has been created to make him look better.

He was an Officer (a Colonel from memory) in the SOUTH Vietnamese Air Force for a long time, he used to tell us stories of his sorties against the Chinese Air Force over a group of Islands (I cannot remeber their name) that were disputed, NOT the actions of a hardened Communist.

Just before the end of the War he took these actions, when the outcome was becoming obvious. He ended up a National Hero while (when we were there) still the ONLY jobs his fellow but loyal South Vietnamese Officers could get was driving Cyclos.

As I said earlier, I found him to be quite pleasant to talk to, but definitely a Traitor to the Country whose uniform he had worn for many years.

[Metro man]

over a group of Islands (I cannot remeber their name) that were disputed

Probably the Spratley Islands, the ownership of which is disputed by a number of countries in the region. Rumours of oil fields no doubt contributing to the interest.

[airsupport]

Probably the Spratley Islands, the ownership of which is disputed by a number of countries in the region. Rumours of oil fields no doubt contributing to the interest.

As I said I cannot remember the name now, but that is probably them, it WAS over oil.

[nom de plume]

What has treason to do with this thread about salary reductions? We have anarchy on the horizon and we are now talking of defections and treason and the like.


Could this new discussion come from this fact that VN has advertised for an increase in flights for the TET holiday of over 800 extra flights and we now are suggesting defections during this time yes?


Could this be another “Tet Offensive?”


BLOODY GOOD IDEA!

[airsupport]

What has treason to do with this thread

Sorry if this has offended anyone. :(

I was just trying to find out if this guy is the same person who was one of our B767 First Officers some 15 years ago, obviously he was, thank you. :ok:

[LindbergB767]

to Air support
Capt Trung has nothing to do with the present situation because he is not flying for VN at the present time being older than 60
I was told 3 weeks ago that he is or will be flying the first private Aircraft to be register in VN ,which is own by a very rich Vietnamese Biz man
By the way Capt Trung already flew several VIP flight in America and Canada
The other one which is DFO now, was an FO flying with you on B767 and he was checked Capt by Regionnair when they received the 3 new B767 in Feb 1996

[airsupport]

Okay thank you.

I was just trying to find out if it was him involved in this.

Things obviously have changed a lot since I left there in 1993, for one thing Regionair at the time only operated a single Airbus A310 there, not B767s.

I am also sure lots of other things have changed there since 1993 including the cost of living, however about the differences in pay and conditions between locals and expats, in 1993 our overnight allowance per night was about the same as a Vietnam Airlines Mechanics MONTHLY salary and they were considered to be well paid by local standards.

As I mentioned earlier, without having been back there since 1993, I thought that they would have trained and been using all local Pilots by now.

Good luck to all involved. :ok:

[manrow]

Why is anyone surprised when airlines take this action in times of worldwide financial crisis?

Surely we would expect managements to reduce costs in any direction possible. The alternative would rapidly spell redundancy for all. What do you want?

[ShyTorque]

Perhaps another cost saving could be made by reducing pension payments to retired pilots?

[LindbergB767]

Pension??
What are you talking about?
Pension in Vietnam for government employes are about $100. A MONTH
And expat pilots have no pension

[casio man]

" The Sand Pit" is filled up....

[ShyTorque]

Pension??
What are you talking about?


Look at the response above mine. See Manrow's profile; he's retired and thinks salary cuts are acceptable so why not cut his pension too? ;)

[KillingTime]

Oh. That probably explains it. I do HKG - HAN regularly (as SLF, I hasten to add). Two hours or thereabout, just sweet flying everytime. The flight is codeshare with CX, but always operated by a 320 VN and by those lovelies wearing purple ao dais. And for the last few years, the captain has always been a gwailo of some sort.
Last Saturday, coming back from Hanoi, the pilot was a young-looking Vietnamese fellow. I did not think much of it at the time - I mean, I am used to flying in China...
The first slightly odd thing was at takeoff: once airborne he banked rather more abruptly than usual to head eastwards - but then, many young pilots are cowboys if they can - pull the joystick just that bit harder. I settled down and that was that. The rest of the flight was uneventful, but landing at Chek Lap Kok...oh dear. I mean, it wasn't even raining. No wind. Early afternoon...I thought we were approaching a bit fast, but, hey, I am SLR, so what do I know? Touchdown was smooth - at least judging from my 36A seat, but the instant the nose was down the tail swerwed left, then right (or perhaps the other way around) with enough force to topple stuff in the galley behind me, and to convince me of the opportunity to grab the seat in front of me with both hands, and to say s***t! loudly enough to solicit an answer by the elderly canadian gentleman's sitting in 36B: 'useless twats'. No more than two seconds of terror, just like when the back of your car loses traction and tries to overtake the front...but I did not think an aircraft could do that. Then the thing straigthened itself and that was that. Hong Kong, home and beauty. But...I don't believe in coincidences, usually. I hope this wasn't one.

[nom de plume]

the pilot was a young-looking Vietnamese fellow....once airborne he banked rather more abruptly ....we were approaching a bit fast....but the instant the nose was down the tail swerwed left, then right ....with enough force to topple stuff in the galley behind me....grab the seat with both hands, and to say s***t!....more than two seconds of terror...but I did not think an aircraft could do that.

we surmise that you are more comfortable with the foriegn pilots, yes?


I don't believe in coincidences "Coincidence -The chance occurrence of two events that may have a peculiar correspondence".

This lot could not do anything properly more than once [accidental coincidental occurance] or demonstrate any sort of consistancy.

[nom de plume]

update news from VN....

"....VAC expect a loss of 100 billion..."
"......demand redutcions in forgien pilot salary.."
"...they cancell all remaining screening slots...."

[hunterboy]

what is the typical notice period with the agencies? Could they pay you off with 3 months notice for instance?

[Lost in Saigon]

If there is a reduction in flying, they can terminate your contract with almost no advance notice. It's all in the fine print.

[Luke Darkstar]

Well, does anybody know some more or less exact numbers how much pay-reduction there will be?
Rishworth don't speak clear in their emails.

[noguerra]

I am supposed to start ground school in 2 weeks at VAC. any news on if they are planning to actually give the boot to contract pilots?

[KillingTime]

we surmise that you are more comfortable with the foriegn pilots, yes?

ndp, you can surmise as extensively as you like. But what you surmise is not what I wrote, nor what I think - obviously. And if you were to put aside the injured national/personal pride for a moment, perhaps you could see the coincidence too, instead of browsing for definitions. :rolleyes:

[framer]

you can surmise as extensively as you like. But what you surmise is not what I wrote, nor what I think - obviously.

Nothing obvious about that statement,....drivel really.

- but then, many young pilots are cowboys if they can

Just like that statement.