View Full Version : Runway incursion

27th Oct 2008, 08:28
What would you do incase of a runway incursion(by an airport vehicle or animal) either very close to V1 or after V1.Has anyone here experienced a runway incursion.

Capt Claret
27th Oct 2008, 09:06
In the early 70's a TAA (Trans Australia Airlines) 727 encountered a Canadian Pacific Airlines DC8, late in the takeoff roll.

I believe that the 727 sliced it's belly open on the fin of the under tow aircraft and deposited numerous bags in the close vicinity of Sydney airport, before landing safely. Having just found the report, I'll have to read it myself.

This link (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1971/AAIR/aair197101202.aspx) is to the ATSB web site investigation synopsis. From there you can download the whole report.

27th Oct 2008, 12:45
This is a very theoretical question. Sitting at a computer and just imagine the situation allows for multiple scenarios you may follow, depending on the picture you draw in your mind.
This also depends on the time you allow yourself for creating this virtual incident.

Sitting with your hands on the thrust levers and the flight controls places you in a situation which may, at least in your given scenario, not allow for a complete and thorough evaluation of the required actions.

At V1, and this includes also being close to V1, the 'GO' attitude followed by standard trained procedures and, in case of a 'hit something' , possibly the time to determine best actions, will allow the entire team to deal 'prepared' for what may happen; this includes the support of airport services etc.

Not many high speed rejections ended uneventful...

A Comfy Chair
27th Oct 2008, 14:22
Which is going to require more runway (thinking that you only have to be say 30ft in the air to miss the aircraft).

In most cases the aircraft will take off and climb at a speed much below the nominated rotate speed, and so, in most cases, I think your best chance is to continue and climb over the traffic.

You may have reduced manoeuvre margins, and be up the creek if you then have an engine failure, but if you're at V1, how many times would you be able to stop in a shorter distance than you could be airborne (given that this is an emergency situation).

It all depends on where the other aircraft is, your performance, all those sorts of things!

29th Oct 2008, 15:16
Depends on your judgement - if you are going to hit the incursion or miss it.

29th Oct 2008, 23:21
Depends on your judgement - if you are going to hit the incursion or miss it.

Therein lies the real problem.

While the military transport flyer has a lot more performance information than does his civil colleague (cue for Galaxy Flyer to wax lyrical on the subject), the latter is very hard pressed to make any sort of realistic judgement other than at the low/high speed end of the takeoff.

For instance, the accident at SYD involving TJA and referred to previously by CC is well worth the read just for this aspect (learn something new every day .. wasn't aware that Doug was the F/O on that occasion ... and was it really that long ago ?).. hence the civil emphasis on procedural decision making during the takeoff .. might not always give the best result but should have a much higher probability of success than encouraging the crew to "wing it". It is interesting to note that the crew apparently first became aware of the conflict at around 100 kts, probably could have stopped with around 2200 ft to spare .. but were convinced that there wasn't enough room to do other than drag the 727 over the DC8. The fact that they very nearly got away with the strategy doesn't negate the observation that stopping was the more appropriate action on this occasion. The DCA crash comic article on the accident very clearly emphasised this difficult decision situation for the crew on this occasion.

I rest my case ...