FAA IR training on G reg aircraft

[moona]

Hi,

Is it possible to receive training for the FAA IR in the UK on a G reg aircraft?

[RSFTO]

yes it is . Make sure the aircrafts meet the F.A.R. requiremts for ifr flying in terms of instruments on board.
You must have a CFII to train you.

[moona]

:ok: Good news indeed!

Is there any easy way to track down a CFII in the southeast?

[IO540]

Is it possible to receive training for the FAA IR in the UK on a G reg aircraft?The question is largely irrelevant because the FAA accepts all foreign training, by any authorised instructor. You don't need a CFI or CFII.

So, all flying you do in a G-reg, with any JAA instructor, is good towards any FAA license or rating.

Same for any solo flights. For example the 250nm FAA CPL x/c flight can be done in Mongolia!

This is all in the FAR/AIM. Much as certain outfits have tried to claim otherwise!

Unlike the protectionist JAA which gives you zero credit (in most cases) for previous training, the FAA gives you full credit for any previous training, from anywhere.

For practical reasons, the last 3 hours before the checkride need to be done with an FAA instructor because an FAA instructor has to sign you off as ready for the checkride.

FAA checkrides in Europe are a bit more tricky, due to the shortage of FAA DPEs. This situation has been up and down over and over and over for years.

Moona you have a PM.

[Duchess_Driver]

Try John Page at TAA, Denham.

Home | General (http://www.taauk.net)

[B2N2]

14 CFR 61.41:

Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.


(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:

(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—

(i) The United States; or

(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.

(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.

(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.


However there is another reg that applies to Instrument training:

14 CFR 61.65 (d)

(d) Aeronautical experience. A person who applies for an instrument rating must have logged the following:

(1) At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes for an instrument—airplane rating; and

(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include—

(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;

(ii) At least 3 hours of instrument training that is appropriate to the instrument rating sought from an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the 60 days preceding the date of the test;

(iii) For an instrument—airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of—

(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;

(iv) For an instrument—helicopter rating, instrument training specific to helicopters on cross-country flight procedures that includes at least one cross-country flight in a helicopter that is performed under IFR, and consists of—

(A) A distance of at least 100 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems; and

(v) For an instrument—powered-lift rating, instrument training specific to a powered-lift on cross-country flight procedures that includes at least one cross-country flight in a powered-lift that is performed under IFR and consists of—

(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

"Authorized Instructor" means an Instructor authorized under this part, Part 61. Therefore 15 hrs of training needs to be received from a FAA certificated Instructor.
All training from an JAA instructor counts, but still 15 needs to be with a CFII.

Part 61.1 Definitions:

(2) Authorized instructor means—

(i) A person who holds a valid ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 or part 143 of this chapter when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

(ii) A person who holds a current flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or

(iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under SFAR No. 58, or part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority

Regards,

:ok:

[IO540]

There is a bit you have missed off, B2N2. I don't have the FAR/AIM to hand but there is another part to the authorised instructor definition elsewhere (for training outside the USA) and thus the 15hrs IR training does not have to be done with an FAA CFII.

I know, been there, done it, and so have hundreds of others.

[bookworm]

61.3(d)(3) A flight instructor certificate issued under this part is not necessary --

(v) [to endorse a pilot logbook to show training given], if the training is given by an authorized flight instructor under §61.41 of this part.

That suggests to me that foreign flight instructors as provided for by 61.41(2) are intended to come under the definition of of authorized

[421C]

61.41 is our friend in this instance

§ 61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.

(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.
The effect of this in combination with the 61.1 Definition is quite sensible. It means an Authorised (FAA) Instructor is needed for everything but the 61.41 qualifies this with the exemption that an ICAO Instructor can serve for the "generic" flight training requirements but not specific ones like 3 hours before a check ride or signing off a BFR.

brgds
421C

[RSFTO]

You have to do minimum the 15 hours dual from a CFII.

[porridge]

The IR training can definitely be done by a JAA Instructor. However, there is the proviso that 3 hours of training must be done by a FAA instructor in the 60 days prior to the test.

Note the following caveats!

The JAA Instructor MUST have the applied IR restriction removed from their FI rating and must have a valid JAA IR - not an IMC! The FAA Instructor must be a CFII and must have a JAA Commercial License in order work for Hire & Reward and also must have an valid JAA IR if any work involves instruction in controlled airspace.

If anyone has any doubts about this I can put them in touch with the UK resident FAA Examiner and the relevant UK regulatory authorities.

Porridge - Fully qualified JAA/FAA Licensed Instructor & JAA FIC Instructor

[B2N2]

Regulations (especially the FAA ones) can be open to interpretation, however I fail to see the justification for the "convenient" interpretation of 61.65(d)(2):

(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;

(ii) At least 3 hours of instrument training that is appropriate to the instrument rating sought from an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the 60 days preceding the date of the test

You are abiding by the 3 hrs req. by an "authorized" instructor but not the 15 hrs by an "authorized" instructor.
For the 3 hrs you are reading "authorized" as being a FAA certificated instructor and for the 15 you are reading "authorized" as being a JAA instructor by using 61.41
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Curious as to what the official word from Oklahoma would be.

[421C]

You are abiding by the 3 hrs req. by an "authorized" instructor but not the 15 hrs by an "authorized" instructor.
For the 3 hrs you are reading "authorized" as being a FAA certificated instructor and for the 15 you are reading "authorized" as being a JAA instructor by using 61.41
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me


It makes sense because of the last item in 61.41
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given
The 15hrs don't require anything more than an endorsement that instrument training has been given, which a foreign instructor can give under 61.41. But, the 3 hrs require a more specific endorsement that the candidate is ready for a check ride - a foreign instructor can not give this.

The same applies to the BFR. A foregin instructor can give 1hr of ground and 1hr of flight training, and endorse that - but they can't write the specific endorsement that the Flight Review requirements have been met.

rgds
421C

[B2N2]

Interesting discussion 421C :ok:

Nothing personal, just my interpretation of it;

You are treading on very thin ice here.

This is my scenario:

A JAA instructor can (assuming Part 61) give 25 hrs of the required 40 hrs for the Instrument training under 61.41

A FAA certificated instructor needs to do 15 hrs in which the 3 hrs for the check ride are included.

It's not specified if it needs to be the first 15, but it obviously makes more sense to do the last 15 hrs.

I'm still standing by:

You are abiding by the 3 hrs req. by an "authorized" instructor but not the 15 hrs by an "authorized" instructor.
For the 3 hrs you are reading "authorized" as being a FAA certificated instructor and for the 15 you are reading "authorized" as being a JAA instructor by using 61.41
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me


A JAA instructor does not meet the definition of "authorized instructor".
The fact that training received from an ICAO instructor can be counted towards meeting the requirements under 61.41 does not change that definition.

Little sidestep here:

Have you noticed that the 15 hrs from an authorized instructor only applies to the Instrument rating? It doesn't state anything similar for the PPL or CPL, except the 3 hrs sign off.

JAA prohibits instrument training outside of Europa-land, all instrument training has to be done by a JAA instructor.
When you are a holder of an ICAO instrument rating that you wish to convert you need a minimum of 15 hrs of training with a JAA certificated instructor.

So 15 hrs with a FAA certificated instructor vs 15 hrs with a JAA certificated instructor.

Your Honor, Prosecution rests, Defense you rebuttal please......:}

[421C]

B2N2 Nothing personal, just my interpretation of it;Likewise!
A JAA instructor can (assuming Part 61) give 25 hrs of the required 40 hrs for the Instrument training under 61.41 It's not a requirement for 40hrs Instrument training. It says "40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time". The non-training time can be done in VMC with a view limiting device and a safety pilot and logged as simulated instrument time (I think). Or it may be done solo with a sub-IR qualification that permits flight in IMC (like the UK IMC Rating).
So, the actual minimum scenario in my view is
12hrs with a non-FAA instructor
3hrs with an FAA instructor
25hrs simulated instrument time, not necessarily Instruction

The fact that training received from an ICAO instructor can be counted towards meeting the requirements under 61.41 does not change that definition This is the crux of the issue. With all respect, your statement doesn't make sense. 61.41 doesn't change the definition of authorised instructor, nor does it need to. It says when a person "may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part" but it doesn't permit such an instructor to give specific endorsements required under Part 61, except that training has been given.

The 15hrs is merely "flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating". The 3hrs are clearer if you read further up Part 61.65 to para (a)(6)"Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required practical test". A foreign instructor may not give such an endorsement because of the last para of 61.41.

Have you noticed that the 15 hrs from an authorized instructor only applies to the Instrument rating? It doesn't state anything similar for the PPL or CPL, except the 3 hrs sign off.

It does for the PPL, 61 Subpart E is full of references to authorised instructors eg. 61.109(a) at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor. There is also a requirement for 3hrs and an endorsement from an FAA Instructor - in exactly the same wording as for the IR.

The PPL actually disproves your point. Loads of people go to the US and do stand-alone FAA PPLs without 20hrs from an FAA CFI - only the 3hrs. The case with the IR is a bit rarer, because many people need 15hrs or close to it to become familiar with US methods and airspace; but of the several DPEs I have spoken to, none have ever thought the 15hrs of Instrument Flight training needs to be by an FAA CFII. The only debate on this has been whether sub-ICAO IR training counts towards it. Some DPEs believe not, as per Porridge's post above, some do. I did my FAA Commercial AMEL Instrument rating and CFII with only a handful of hours from an FAA CFII.

The CPL doesn't mention minimum required training hours because few of the FAA qualifications stipulate minimum hours. There are no minimum training hours for the CPL, ATP, CFI, MEI, CFII etc. The system is competency based, and only requires an FAA Instructor endorsement that a candidate is prepared. In fact, other than the PPL and IR, there is little training the "foreign credit" in 61.41 can apply to!

brgds
421C

[B2N2]

Hmmmm......(sound of ruffling feathers) standby pls...
Will need to do some digging, I'm doubting myself now.
I'll need to do some digging and get back to you 421C :E

[felixflyer]

So what is the outcome of this? Can i do the FAA/IR training in the UK on a G-reg aircraft?

I have 15 hours IMC instruction but not done my test. What is required now to get my FAA/IR in the UK?