Stepped Climb Proceedure

[oapilot]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen.

I have a question regarding stepped climbs as part of a SID which I encountered the other day for the first time in my inconsiderable experience.

Departing from a London aerodrome our clearance included "caution stepped climb proceedure", which was set out clearly on the departure plate. We briefed accordingly as to the altitudes we needed at various points in the departure. On handover to London Control, we were cleared to the next altitude on the SID, and all went smoothly.

I'm wondering now however if our thinking during the brief was correct, so would appreciate some clarification on the following.

Knowing how busy London can be at times, I'm presuming that had we been unable to establish contact with London before the next step up in the climb, as the SID shows the vertical profile expected, that we should follow the published SID and climb in accordance with that profile.

Also, if no further climb instruction is given on handover, as long as we are still flying the SID, would you expect us still to climb accordingly? I'm just mindful of how busy the airspace is, so would rather make an arse of myself on here, than up there!

Have a good day.

OAP

[055166k]

A SID is a clearance.......comply with the clearance until you receive an instruction to do something else.
Question for you........if the controller had read out the clearance item by item including the step-climb limits, would you still pose the question?
A SID is a convenient way to keep R/T loading to a minimum, and may take into consideration such factors as noise route/terrain/separation from other routes/traffic etc. etc. A controller can [on occassion] issue a different clearance spoken in full, or vary one or more conditions on a published SID, should the circumstances in any particular traffic scenario deem it the right thing to do.
Rgds.

[Not Long Now]

Or, to put it another way, yes.

[oapilot]

Thanks for the answers.

Question for you........if the controller had read out the clearance item by item including the step-climb limits, would you still pose the question?

In short, no. However as I mentioned, it is the first time I've flown a SID with a stepped climb profile, and preferred to confirm what I thought, rather than assume that what I thought was correct. Knowledge is power, as they say!

Regards

OAP

[anotherthing]

OAP,

not maybe the most helpful (or seemingly friendly) response from 055166K - but the answer is valid, they were just trying to get you to think the answer through for yoursdelf to aid understading (I think).

As said above, the short answer is yes. The reason you may have had the fact the SID included a stepped climb is quite possibly due to the fact that working in the LTMA, we quite often see aircraft climb above the correct altitude, through either mis-interpretation of the plates, or plain error.

Another thing we often see with the advent of Mode S is that some aircraft display the final SID level in the Selected Flight Level function on the aircraft data block - even though the aircraft will be stopping off at the step levels. Some systems still just show what the 'hard' stop is i.e. the final level on the SID - as you can imagine, this causes a bit of consternation and results in a query from the ATCO!

[oapilot]

Anotherthing,

No problem and no offence taken (or given, I hope). I see the intricacies of working LTMA, and looking at the issues raised on other threads about VNAV climbs in stepped proceedures and ASEL setting, I suspect ATCOs have their work cut out sometimes, to say the least.

Neither I, nor the skipper I was with had flown a stepped climb SID previously, and the good news is that we did work together to get to the right answer. I really for peace of mind wanted to just validate that answer, and 055166K's reply and question are both valid and well made. Compared to the responses from my wife regarding single pilot washing machine operations, the tone is positively warm!

Thanks again for all replies, and all the best,

OAP

[bookworm]

A SID is a clearance.......comply with the clearance until you receive an instruction to do something else.
Question for you........if the controller had read out the clearance item by item including the step-climb limits, would you still pose the question?

OK, so let's just expand that:

[on ground]

"Fastair 123, after departure right turn to BPK climbing to altitude 4000 ft. After crossing BPK, climb altitude 5000 ft direct CLN." [FWIW, that's similar to a CLN6C out of Luton.]

[take-off]

"Fastair 123 contact London 118.825"

[frequency change]

Now consider three cases

1) "Fastair 123, good afternoon, London Control, climb to altitude 4000 ft"
2) "Fastair 123, good afternoon, London Control, continue the heading as a radar heading and climb to altitude 4000 ft"
3) "Fastair 123, good afternoon, London Control, climb to altitude 5000 ft"

For each case, what should my vertical profile be in the absence of further instructions?

Presumably we'd agree that in both cases 2 and 3, the original clearance is amended and no part of it still applies. What about in case 1 after BPK?

[anotherthing]

Bookworm

good question, as a pilot, I would ask it I was to maintain 4000' or continue on the SID.

As an ATCO, I would hope I would be unambiguous; thus never causing any confusion and say something along the lines of "Fastair123, stop climb (or climb and maintain) altitude 4000ft"

If in doubt, ask, but I would say that even the first example cancels the SID clearance, but in this instance it would be worth checkng any ambiguity.

[LTN ATCO]

Quote:-
Departing from a London aerodrome our clearance included "caution stepped climb proceedure", which was set out clearly on the departure plate. We briefed accordingly as to the altitudes we needed at various points in the departure.


The plates now are alot better, the older ones were less clear when the warning was introduced, it is part of a crackdown on level busts which i understand has been very successful. It is a warning only, not a mandatory readback, to bring the step to your attention, many a time a/c have got airbourne climbing to the final altitude missing the step. It's good to see that the message is getting through.

The warning has merit and is reviewed throughout the year and the context, "warning"/"caution" phraseology changed so it doesn't get forgotten.

Hope to see you again here soon.

[Level bust]

you will probably find there is only one airport in the London TMA that includes a 'warning step climb' warning.

The reason being is there have been a number of level busts, mainly by foreign corporate jets that have climbed straight to the final level. This then hopefully acts as a reminder.

Basically, unless told differently fly to the SID.

[Level bust]

Luton ATCO, we must stop posting at the same time!!

[terrain safe]

Level bust: There at at least 2 Stansted's CLN departure has 3 different levels in the climb profile.

[coracle]

Northolt and The City have stepped climb SIDS too!

OAP: If in doubt, for God's sake ask!!! Even if it's on the R/T. We don't mind, honest.:ok:

We would rather you query something than get it wrong and us lose separation. Lots of paper work to do then, and there's nothing an ATCO hates more is paperwork!!!

[Level bust]

The point I was making was I think Luton is the only Airport that states 'warning stepped climb' as part of the clearance. I appreciate other Airports have them, but do they give a warning?

[bookworm]

OAP: If in doubt, for God's sake ask!!! Even if it's on the R/T. We don't mind, honest.

That's easy to say coracle, but R/T loading is already close to capacity on some of the LTCC frequencies. If every aircraft queries the initial instruction because the interpretation is ambiguous, you're going to make things a lot worse.

If a pilot has to question the meaning of an instruction or clearance, the communication procedure has failed somewhere. There is no room for ambiguity.

Unfortunately there is no document that tells pilots how to interpret clearances or particular phrasings of clearances.

[hangten]

The point I was making was I think Luton is the only Airport that states 'warning stepped climb' as part of the clearance. I appreciate other Airports have them, but do they give a warning?

All Gatwick SIDs with step climbs (LAM, DVR, CLN, SAM, BOGNA, HARDY, KENET, BIG and SFD - all but 2!) have the 'Warning - Stepped Climb' warning printed on the plates but it's not issued over the RTF when the SID is passed.

With these SIDs the DVR, LAM and CLN are the worst for level busts on departure, and of those the DVR is the worst. You have been warned... :ok:

[oapilot]

It was in fact out of Northolt.

I certainly don't think reminding pilots of an unusual (in terms of it not being the common "climb to altitude XXXX' ") vertical profile in the clearance is a bad thing. Especially if you have a high volume of crews going through that are perhaps not familiar with local SIDs. Yes, I know we all brief, but sometimes in this world of rushed turnarounds, things do get missed, and if including a simple phrase within a clearance sets alarm bells ringing and saves just one level bust a year, thats one potential catastrophy averted.

At BHX where the initial stopper is a Flight Level, it even gets put on the ATIS that initial climb is to a level, not an altitude (although admittedly only when we have v. low QNH or someone has had a level bust).

OAP: If in doubt, for God's sake ask!!! Even if it's on the R/T. We don't mind, honest.

Sound advice indeed Coracle, and sadly advice that is often overlooked for all sorts of reasons:hmm:

OAP

[bookworm]

Let me just add that I think I misread/misinterpreted oapilot's original post. I thought that he was describing a scenario like my case 1, whereas in fact I think he was describing case 3. If so, my implication that London was using ambiguous instructions/phraseology in this case was unwarranted -- I apologise.

I would still stick by my assertion that, although it is clearly right to question any uncertainty about clearances as coracle suggests, in general it is important that instructions/clearances are completely unambiguous without the need for further dialogue.

[Jumbo Driver]

I think we are in danger of becoming over-complicated here. If you are cleared to depart on a SID, then both the lateral (route) and vertical (alt/FL) requirements of the SID must be followed, until or unless you are cleared otherwise. Any subsequent clearance cancels that part (i.e. vertical or lateral) of the SID.

With this in mind, and unless I have misunderstood his first post, it seems to me that oapilot is effectively asking two questions:

Q1) If, on handover after Departure, you are cleared to an altitude (which may happen to be the next altitude on the SID), what is your subsequent vertical profile in the event of a Comms failure?

A1) This revised clearance cancels and replaces the vertical profile of the SID. So you are no longer cleared to continue with the stepped climb profile of the SID, unless it was restated as part of the new clearance.

Q2) If no climb clearance is given on handover, do you still continue with the SID stepped climb profile ... ?

A2) No new clearance has been given so of course you continue with the existing clearance and follow the SID.

MATS Part 1 (CAP493) sets out the principles involved here and Section 1, Chapter 4 Control of Traffic reads as follows:

7 Amendments to Clearances

7.1 When an amendment is made to a clearance the new clearance shall be read in full to the pilot and shall automatically cancel any previous clearance. Controllers must be aware, therefore, that if the original clearance included a restriction, e.g. “cross ABC FL150 or below” then the issue of a revised clearance automatically cancels the earlier restriction, unless it is reiterated with the revised clearance.

7.2 Similar care must be exercised when a controller issues a clearance, which amends the vertical profile of an aircraft on an SID. For example, “climb FL120” automatically cancels the vertical profile of the SID. If the profile contains a restriction that provides vertical separation from conflicting traffic on another SID, the restriction must be reiterated, e.g. “climb FL120 cross XYZ 5000 feet or above”, unless separation is ensured by other means.

7.3 Similarly, when controllers issue instructions which amend the SID route, they are to confirm the level profile to be followed, e.g. “fly heading 095, climb FL80” or “route direct EFG, stop climb at altitude 5000 feet”.


JD
:)

[Taffy1]

London City Sid's all have a stepped climb appart from BPK Sid, all the other Sid's (SAM, LYD, DVR, CLN and CPT) the clearance is given including "maintain xx feet" and is a mandatory readback. This came in following several level bust through not following the stepped climb procedure. Otherwise a lot of form filling is required, which we do not enjoy :ugh: