Radar contact and Identified

[ron83]

Hello guys and girls,

what's the difference between those two,can you give examples of situations,whether to use one or another, doc.4444 definitions doesn't give much:cool:

Cheers,Ron.

[blackpants]

Contact - I can see what ac you are talking about.

Identified - I have all the details and am ready to accept that ac.

[ron83]

so for example: G-XXXX departs, calls on frequency, I can see him, I reply: XXX Approach, radar contact.
But if the same acft,which I have details,departs,but let's imagine transponder was off, SSR only, I can't see him ,he calls, I reply: XXX approach, Identified.

Is that what you mean?:ooh::ooh:

Ron.

[belk78]

Really?
In Spain "radar contact" = "identified". There´s absolutely no difference between them.

[timelapse]

In UK, MATS Pt 1:

Radar Contact - The situation which exists when the radar position of a particular aircraft is seen and identified on a situation display. (ICAO)

Identification - The situation which exists when the position indication of a particular aircraft is seen on a situation display and positively identified. (ICAO)

[ron83]

So if, I'm using radar than it is always be radar position and therefore =Radar contact?:ugh:
So how come I can see on situation display other than a radar position,only ADS comes to my mind:ugh:

[andrepilota]

it's the same thing...u can use both as much as u wish

[jangler909]

Here up north..

RADAR CONTACT = SSR contact
IDENTIFIED = primary (PSR) contact only

[iraatc777]

:rolleyes:I go for the same.I can`t see the difference.radar contact=identified.:confused:NOW I HAVE DOUBTS:bored:

[Grabbers]

Surely it depends on the context in which it/they are being used.

Identified is usually only mentioned ATC to ATC during a radar handover or ATC to AC when the ac is positively identifed by the controller using the proscribed identification techniques/methods.

Contact would be used when an ac had undergone a radar handover and the ac would be told to "Contact xxx radar 111.11" or when one ATC to another is referring to an ac and points said ac out using radar. As soon as the listening controller is happy he he has identified the subject ac he replies "contact" so both parties know the which ac they are referring.

Just read that through so not convinced it's that clear but I've never professed to be any good at this lark!

[Atcham Tower]

UK phraseology "Identified" sounds a lot more positive than "radar contact" but the latter is ICAO so we're outnumbered.

[glider insider]

Picking up on the use of contact in RT,, i.e "callsign contact xxx on xxx.xxx"

contact implies a radar handover has been completed.
continue with implies the next agency has been pre-noted but no radar handover has taken place
freecall - is just that, neither has taken place and any service the aircraft is under would be terminated at that point.

In the military arena, identified means the aircraft has been identified on radar using an approved method of identification. Identification must take place prior to a radar service being provided. The process of identification does not imply a service is being offered.

[BravoMike]

The First ATCU that gets an aircraft on radar
(eg. TWR upon departure) will identify the flight (eg 1NM from RWY, passing 2400 ft) So that controller will use
KLM123 identified (upon departure)...

The next controllers who will use the same radar system will usually say KLM123 radar contact...< instruction> ...

If the radar contact is lost...
KLM123 for radar identification, squawk ident...

KLM123 identified...

Thats the info we received in our ANSP...

Grtz
B

[cancel_mayday]

What's the difference between:

a) POSITEVELY IDENTIFIED and
b) IDENTIFIED?

:ugh:

[RustyNail]

Wow, what a buffet of answers to a simple question, and I am sure this was covered about 5 months ago.

Radar Contact means a target / PPS / RPS whatever is observed on a radar screen. That is all, it is just an RPS or blip buzzing around.

Identifed means that thru the approved procedures of SSR / PSR identification, that target has now been correlated to a known A/C and is now "Identified".

There is no such thing as "Positively Identified", a target is either Identifed or not.

Once an A/c is "Identified" it shall automatically receive radar service until it is told "Radar services terminated", procedural control then ensues and the A/C will resume normal position reports etc.

Picking up on the use of contact in RT,, i.e "callsign contact xxx on xxx.xxx"

contact implies a radar handover has been completed.
continue with implies the next agency has been pre-noted but no radar handover has taken place
freecall - is just that, neither has taken place and any service the aircraft is under would be terminated at that point.

In the military arena, identified means the aircraft has been identified on radar using an approved method of identification. Identification must take place prior to a radar service being provided. The process of identification does not imply a service is being offered.

Couldn't disagree with you more on this one "glider insider", unless you do some special secret military stuff. "Contact" when used with a frequency change just means "Call" "Switch-to" "Talk to" etc, but has nothing to do with the state of A/C Identification or not.

Once an A/C is "Identified" it remains so forever, unless "Radar services terminated" is used. This also applies in automated RDPS's between sectors, the A/C is still identified when control is transfered from one controller to the next.

The second an A/C has been identified, that automatically and immediately implies a radar service is being provided until they are told otherwise.

[Spitoon]

The second an A/C has been identified, that automatically and immediately implies a radar service is being provided until they are told otherwise.Not sure that I agree with that. In the terminal/approach environment there are many occasions when I have an aircraft identified but I'm not providing it with a radar service. A VFR departure may be identified on departure but unless the pilot asks for a radar service he/she continues 'doing their own thing' - but I still have them identified.

PS - I say 'doing their own thing' because in reality I'm not sure what service they are then receiving, a situation that will not be helped in the UK from March when just about anything can be called a FIS!

[Imperator1300]

According to ICAO Doc. 4444, both terms are acceptable: either "Radar Contact (position)" or "Identified (Position)" (see Doc. 4444, 12.4.1.1).

Further, it defines Radar Contact as "the situation which exists when the radar position of of a particular aircraft is seen and identified on a situation display".

It is also stated that that these phraseologies are to be used when surveillance is being used in the provision of Air Traffic Services, implying that that once an aircraft has been identified (and advised) it is then being provided with a radar service.

Tired now...

Imperator1300

[glider insider]

The controlling I do is certainly not "secret military" stuff, but the meanings of the 3 phrases, "contact, continue with, freecall" are as taught to UK mil controllers and are certainly applicable in UK ATSOCAS as provided by a military controller (such as when controlling LARS).

I disagree that Identification implies a radar service is being applied. I can think of an example when you are controlling a FIS and you require coordination with that aircraft, you will identifiy that aircraft and seek agreement from the FIS pilot to a course of action. I have identified the aircraft so that I know I am coordinating the correct return on the screen, but I am still only providing that aircraft with a FIS. I cannot speak for controlling in CAS, but outside CAS a radar service is not applied until the controller / pilot agreement has been reached. That is the pilot requests the type of service and the controller confirms that service by stating it back, or the relevant next best service applicable (such as when the aircraft is beneath the RVC and cannot be provided with RAS, so a RIS is applied).

Interestingly the discussions we are having are one of the reasons that the new ATSOCAS is being introduced, so that a consistent level of service is being applied from unit to unit across both the military and civil arenas. Accordingly the military will be adopting many aspects of civil phraseology such as "immediately" when offering AA and "degrees" with headings ending with a zero.

[5milesbaby]

The original poster is a SATCO according to profile so I would imagine that the question relates to ATC-ATC co-ordination and nothing to do with what is said to pilots over the RTF. Clarification would help but I think the 2nd post answers the question perfectly.

[ron83]

to clarify, I mean Controller-pilot RT:ok:

[hvogt]

Germany has a rather pragmatic answer to the question. From their AIP (GEN 1.7-13):
As the difference in meaning of the phrases IDENTIFIED
and radar contact is irrelevant, both phrases are equally
entitled to be used, without a difference.

[aluminium persuader]

As a few others have said, it's an ICAO vs CAA thing. In the UK we say "identified", others overseas say "radar contact". The meaning is the same.:ok:

[Blockla]

Identified doesn't always mean radar contact... but radar contact always means identified. ;-).

[2 sheds]

And the Irish explanation is ...?

2 s

[zkjaws]

Really????

ADS-B

DOC 4444 Chapter 8

[2 sheds]

zk

Good point, well made! - though I think both terms pre-date ADS-B?

2 s

[Not Long Now]

Go on then, I'll bite. How can you be identified, other than by looking out the window, but not be in "radar contact"?

[Blockla]

@not long now, As above. ADS-B or Multilateration and I'm sure there are other types of surveillance too... Radar is not the only way to get a blip on a screen.

[rymle]

What I've learned (just checked out);

Radar contact if using PSR/SSR for identification
Identified if using PSR/SSR OR other "non-radar" methods like ADS-B.

[A7700]

What I have learned, and learn to trainees :

Identified means that you have performed an ICAO identification procedure (DOC4444) to get the correlation between a position on a surveillance display and the ID of that position

radar contact means that someone else have performed the identification process and with the help of an automated approved system,the link between position and ID is maintained on your display.You do'nt need to do again another identification process but saying "radar contact" inform the pilot that after the hand over the ATC radar service is still the same.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Go on then, I'll bite. How can you be identified, other than by looking out the window, but not be in "radar contact"?>>

I was working Heathrow SVFR waaaay back and a light aircraft called me. I immediately recognised the pilot as a work colleague so I said "You are identified, Ray"!! Oh well, it got a laugh at the time.

[2 sheds]

A7700 et al

I suspect that you might be attributing a subtlety to the use of the two terms that does not actually exist in any ICAO procedures - unless you can quote a reference?

HD

You what?


2s

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It's OK 2Sheds..... he had a transponder!

[Mikehotel152]

After an initial call and receipt of the 'xxxxx radar contact/identified' from ATC, is it appropriate or necessary or merely good manners for the aircraft to acknowledge? Or does such a reply clutter the airwaves?

Just trying to keep you nice people happy! :)

[A7700]

First of all, ICAO in DOC4444 , chapter 12 gives two phraseology "options"
d) RADAR CONTACT [position];
e) IDENTIFIED [position];
Which means that somewhere there is a difference even tactful...?

Then there is 2 different definitions (DOC4444) :

Radar contact. The situation which exists when the radar position of a particular aircraft is seen and identified on a situation display.

Identification. The situation which exists when the position indication of a particular aircraft is seen on a situation display and positively identified.

Without to go into details in the subtile understanding of english language ( this is not my mother tongue !) those two definitions are different : in the second case there is a trend to think that the "positive" aspect is due to the "positive identification" performed by the ATCO for its own present need only on the traffic he is controlling
In the first case everything is already done, it 's just a confirmation of ATC service for the pilot understanding

And finally the ICAO DOC 4444 "radar service" chapter title has been changed some years ago into "ATS surveillance service"..Its' time to change "radar contact" phraseology in " ATS Surveillance Service contact"and reduce capacity by 10% to avoid frequency load.....:O

[2 sheds]

Unless there are also procedures specified for the application of these different terms, I suspect that we might be reading too much into those definitions. In each case, the definition can be interpreted as either "observed for what it is" or "as a result of the identification procedure just applied."

Bottom line - what practical difference does it make, especially to the pilots' understanding?

2 s

[zkjaws]

Have a look at the the Identification Procedures in paragraphs 8.6.2.2, 8.6.2.3 and 8.6.2.4

I can't see mention of "postive identification" - this may well be a translation from another language into English (just look at how this is causing problems with the JAA/EASA question banks)

All three paragraphs have an option, "transfer of identifcation (see 8.6.3)". If these paragraphs do tell us how to establish "positive identification", then the transfer of identification is one of the options and therefore disproves your your explanation of the difference between the two phrases.

Additionally, once identified an aircraft doesn't need to be told he is identified again until the radar service has been terminated and the idetification process have been repeated.
If you want to reduce RTF traffic, stop telling someone who has been identified when they got airborne out of Central Europe that they are identifed every time they change frequency, until they have the radar service terminated on entering Oceanic airspace.

[A7700]

About the use of "positive" in my reply to the thread it was just a semantic usage of what is written in the doc, not representing my opinion.
I have never understood what was the difference between an identification, processed with the official approved procedures and another one which is supposed to be "positive". And as the official doc is worked and published in english it could not come from another language ( Positively is used, translated with the same meaning,in the french ICAO version of DOC4444, but not transcripted in the official french OPS document)
And also I have never used this concept in ops phraseology as ICAO has not introduce "positive" in the DOC4444 phraseology.
I suppose that in english, when there is a risk to have a positive and/or a negative situation, the one which is used shall be stated.(Positively is used many time by ICAO and not only for the identification).

From what I hear, EASA ( Whoare the experts ?) like to found problem when there is none..so when there is some concerns it becomes quickly a huge mountain....