Starting a Flying Club

[jerezflyer]

Hi,

I have searched the CAA website and cannot find any reference to the requirements to start a flying club.

Does anyone know what is needed to start a UK registered flying club, for private flying mainly, pleasure flights and even maybe PPL training?

Thanks for any insight and info.

[Mark 1]

To offer pleasure flights you need an Air Operators Certificate (AOC). To do trial lessons and instruction you need to be at least a registered facility (RF).
Both the above also require that you operate from a licensed aerodrome under current rules (the training requirement is under review).

Privately hiring aircraft through a club doesn't really involve the CAA, but you must meet airworthiness requirements for Public Transport.

[Kolibear]

The best way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large one.

So one of the requirements might be ownership of a small bank - shouldn't be too difficult soon.

[Foxy Loxy]

Koli speaks truth...... ;)

However, I can think of at least one person here who may be able to help! (He's away right now, but when he's back, I'm sure there will be some pearls dropped into your shell-like)

:)

[julian_storey]

To offer pleasure flights you need an Air Operators Certificate (AOC). To do trial lessons and instruction you need to be at least a registered facility (RF).
Both the above also require that you operate from a licensed aerodrome under current rules (the training requirement is under review).

Privately hiring aircraft through a club doesn't really involve the CAA, but you must meet airworthiness requirements for Public Transport.

Mark 1 is pretty much absolutely right.

The main thing you need is a LOAD of cash and a willingness to lose it :-)

[Say again s l o w l y]

Sorry chaps but Bo**ocks.

You don't need an unlimited bank account, nor do you need to run at a loss. It is hard and you need to be very, very careful, but it is possible to provide good training at a reasonable cost and not lose money.

Go to http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Standards%20Document%2011%20Version%2007.pdf for what is required by the ministry.

[robin]

Don't bother starting one - there will be plenty available for sale fairly soon.

One old-estabished one near me is about to go belly-up.:{

[BackPacker]

Are we talking about a flying club or a flying school? Ie. a cooperative thing vs. a commercial (incorporated) outfit?

To start a flying club what you need is a few willing individuals to setup a board of directors, attract further members and then find the funds (either from the members or from a loan) to buy your first aircraft. Or lease/borrow/rent one.

To start a corporation you need to have one or more wealthy people (possibly including yourself) who are willing to invest in your company, so you get the funds to buy your first aircraft.

The fundamental difference is that in the first case, the members of your club do not expect a profit and most of the work that's being done is done by volunteers. In the second case, the owners can reasonably expect to make a profit, and you might need to pay the majority of your staff.

There are other, more subtle differences too regarding liability, initial investment required, bookkeeping standards, taxes and so forth.

Other than that, there is likely not going to be much of a difference in the requirements of the aviation authorities: RF if you want to do PPL training, AOC if you want to do aerial work.

If your aim is just some cheap flying for yourself and your mates, it is probably easiest to setup a shared group.

[bad bear]

Does anyone know what is needed to start a UK registered flying club, for private flying mainly, pleasure flights and even maybe PPL training?


Don't be derailed be the doubters.

What you need is energy, enthusiasm and a good atmosphere and lots of fun.

Ban winging and negativity, no one wants to be around a bad atmosphere

Times are not as bad as we are led to believe.....go for it. Good luck

b b
p.s. it might be worth diversifying and having parachuting , microlights , some gliding and model flying. That business model seems to work in Poland
pps some tottie and booze will also help

[niknak]

Don't be derailed but be totally and utterly realistic.

You are going to be running a business which is dependant to a very large extent on lots of good weather to enable people to fly, an economy which gives the ordinary public the disposable income to spend over £5500 on a PPL and in the meantime have a constant income to cover your overheads.
This will almost certainly mean running a bar, continual social events therein and employing staff to do it.
Income from flying has to cover the cost of renting or buying premises, owning/leasing aircraft, maintenance, licensing costs and employing at least one full time instructor but probably two. Then there's the matter of what you are going to pay yourself. Realistic annual running costs for even the most basic of organisations must be approaching £250K.

Sorry to piss on your chips, but in 30 years in aviation, I can't think of a worse time to enter into such a venture.

[Say again s l o w l y]

bad bear makes some very good points. A simple flying school model is a dead duck. You cannot make enough out of simple ab-initio PPL flying. End of story.

You must diversify. Have a shop, do CPL work, get an AOC, Maintenance etc.etc. are all areas you need to be involve in if the busines is to be big enough to survive. If you can get into running the airfield and getting part of the fuel revenues etc. that also helps.

Whilst getting into GA doesn't seem like a good idea at the moment. Actually it isn't a bad time at all.

You can get setup for buttons as other crapper schools go to the wall, you can negotiate very, very hard with airfields over rent etc and as you'll be losing money for the first couple of years anyway, then when it all picks up again, you'll be sitting pretty.

But what do I know about setting up a flying school. It's not as if I've ever been involved in doing that..........

Nah, listen to the naysayers. Doom, Gloom, we're all going to die etc.etc.

[Fright Level]

In 10 years time when jerezflyer is mooching around in his private King Air we'll all be kicking ourselves for not starting a business at the bottom of the economy when just about everything from premises to staff can be picked up at rock bottom prices.

Determination and ignore the doom and gloom. Not a business I would get into but then again I thought a "Disc Operating System" was uber-nerdy back in 1978 and wouldn't go anywhere.

[IO540]

I agree with Niknak and S.A.S.

It can be done. However having started two businesses right in the middle of the depths of two recessions (1978 and 1991) I would not be put off by the current doom and gloom. You can acquire assets cheaply, and things can only get better!!

There is still a lot of money about. There always is. The problem is attracting it into GA, but that has always been a problem, which is why most of the GA scene is so decrepit, operating a load of rust-buckets.

You will never make money by doing what everybody else is doing i.e. competing for customers who can barely afford the next lesson. The trick, which needs to be cracked, is how to attract the higher net worth individuals - business / professional types - into flying. However, these people are demanding, and don't tolerate fools and poor management and poor instructors.

And obviously you can then train those who can barely afford it as well - improves the asset utilisation. One just cannot structure the business for that customer profile.

One needs a well organised setup, with nice modern planes (there should be some going reasonably cheap soon, with schools going bust), clean club-like facilities, acceptance of experienced private pilots into the club (lots of mentoring going on), and obviously a reasonable catchment area.

I'd get some Diamond DA40-180s (avgas engine). I don't know how many are around the UK but there certainly are plenty in the USA. With conventional instruments (not the G1000) these should make ideal trainers which also look attractive enough for serious going places under self fly hire.

I would forget getting an AOC for charter. It's a mug's game. You spend 5 digits getting the AOC and all you can do is the occassional ferry of a bunch of golfers somewhere, and will need a twin for that, which is another black hole for money - especially if you get some old heap like most of those I see doing AOC work. The only advantage I can see is that with an AOC you can reclaim the duty on avgas; whether this can be applied to all company ops or just the actual AOC operating flights, I don't know. Of course you reclaim duty on exported fuel anyway.

[Fuji Abound]

Some very good advice from IO - I am afraid I havent read the rest of the thread.

I would add that things will get worse before they get better in my view. It may not be the time to invest at this precise moment.

You should think of buying an existing club if you can. There may be a number that become financially distressed. If the numbers add up it is almost always far less costly buying a business that is already set up than doing it from scratch.

All that said having been closely involved with one club professionally during the good years it is a hard business. Margins are very small and unexpectedly poor weather will have a huge impact on the business. Yes, you need to be different, but being different costs money - I wish you all the luck in the world, but you will do very well to make much money, many have tried and sadly the majority fail.

[theyounglaird]

That is the first time I have ever agreed with anything you say! You make sense - thanks for that.

If anyone wants a reasonable model to follow, take a look at what these guys do :

Welcome to Flight Academy Blackpool - The North West's Premier Flying School (http://www.flightacademyblackpool.com/)

I have flown there and the guys that runs it seems to do everything to bring in the cash, with success!

[youngskywalker]

Not any connection to the old 'Flight Academy Scotland' are they?! :O

[LH2]

Sorry, this probably is a very stupid question: I know you said a "UK registered flying club". But based where? In the UK?


I told you it was a stupid question, but your "jerezflyer" and location had me wondering.

[bestpilotindaworld]

Realistic annual running costs for even the most basic of organisations must be approaching £250K.

Bull:mad:

Doing something wrong then :ugh:

[Lost man standing]

I would forget getting an AOC for charter. It's a mug's game. You spend 5 digits getting the AOC and all you can do is the occassional ferry of a bunch of golfers somewhere, and will need a twin for that, which is another black hole for money - especially if you get some old heap like most of those I see doing AOC work.Try telling London Executive that! Many small AOC operators start out of clubs. It is a specialised market, and it is a bad time to start now, but certainly worth considering getting a twin to do some training on and to hire out with a view to AOC work later on, simply because prices are low at the moment. An A-to-A certificate (i.e. only pleasure flights, no flights to other airfields) is rather easier and cheaper to achieve than an A-to-B, and even worth looking at for a single, as you only want to fly day VMC anyway.

Just look at the current market, see what other people have made money flying. Don't assume you have found a brand new way of doing things that'll take all the business from your competitors. That is how larger amounts are lost! Don't even consider doing back-door charters/pleasure flights without an AOC (or hiring them the aeroplane, putting them in touch with a pilot you hapopen to know). The other operators are watching, and I know of four companies/individuals who have had to answer to the CAA, and only one who got away with it. Not good odds!

[Fuji Abound]

The other operators are watching, and I know of four companies/individuals who have had to answer to the CAA, and only one who got away with it. Not good odds!

1:4 thats not so bad - mind you what would I know, I am not a betting person. :}

[Mickey Kaye]

Apart from a piece of paper what does an AOC involve. I find it a bit odd that flying schools for instance can't do pleasure flights but hey if you want to have a go then thats ok.

[Lost man standing]

It involves formal responsibility through assigned post holders (such as Chief Pilot and Accountable Manager). It involves formalised practices in all aspects of flying in an operations manual, and training and oversight in accordance with procedures layed down in the ops manual. The ops manual must comply with EU-OPS. Oh and paying money to the CAA, of course.

Fuji

The fines can be quite high. First offence they are likely to be in the low four figures. Second offence, getting towards the middle of five figures. Plus costs of course. And the CAA are then watching, and also very reluctant to agree to anyone involved being a post holder later on! That can screw up a good career.