Non-Commissioned Nimrod Air Electronics Officers (II)

[Hugh S]

Aside from the obvious comments about keeping the sun off the tac screen and operating the dimmers switch, the fact that three master aircrew will soon be filling the role of AEO on the Nimrod MR2 is another example of PMA mismanagement.

The first three AEOps selected (WSOps in new money) are all very capable, professional and, in my opinion, nice blokes, but there is no proposed substitution pay or tangible sweetener.

Commissioned AEOs (WSO) can reach level 28 on the PAS ladder but MACr have a ceiling of level 20, some £8000 less, for carrying out the same role with the same responsibility on the same aircraft.

Managerial responsibilities are still the same and there can be no sensible argument regarding captaincy as not all AEOs make captain.

The new situation is likely to create resentment. Current AEOs will surely see this move as a threat to their status while the AEOp (WSOp) cadre will view the change as further erosion of experience, and an attitude from PMA that NCA will simply carry out the same role for less pay.

Why not offer a fast-track commissioned warrant officer to selected candidates and level the playing field or raise the PAS threshold in line with existing AEOs?

[Charlie Luncher]

I remember John Gill showing me a photo of the last All Knocker crew with a shack and steam train in the shot, it was at Ballykelly so it could have been the early 80's:eek:.
As a WOFF or MACR in very old money I had to do 2.3 weeks of KFS course, 2 of which were camping in the hills(please no 201 SQN jokes :suspect:) then back to the OCU. I did have to move to the outer colonies of the realm though chilly 29c today.
I think good luck to the dudes, I just hope they are supported well on both sides, the question is - is it easier to cuff the baby nav from radio or the sunshade seat:ouch:.
I only have a little Dimmer Switch, not sure how it would look in white jeans(cue Bee Gees music:D).
Charlie the splitter sends.

[Not Long Here]

Hugh,

I remember about ten years ago we went through the same iteration where selected Masters flew as AEO. At the time it was an expediency measure which faded away fairly rapidly.

From what you are saying it seems that this new "initiative" looks fairly permanent.

Looks like the policy, when everyone went WSO/Op, has now come back to bite. I was always a supporter of getting the most capable guy in the Tac seat, but the implementation for the knockers took away opportunities rather than creating more.

Yet again, the air force missed out due to the blinkered views of a few senior officer navs.

And be advised I am a Nav with just a few hours as Nav Captain but too many knockers were ignored for some of the dross we got as Nav 2's and too many idiots were commissioned as AEOs because of their officer qualities! rather than their potential to contribute to the Tac Team.

Charlie L,

Hopefully meet up for a beer soon in the VPI bar (again), should be coming out to do some planning for a trial.

Regards to all in Maritime (wherever you are)

[PFMG]

One would imagine the best candidates would already be PAS MACR, in which case they have signed up to forego any commissioning aspirations. Heightened PAS thresholds would be nice be would be difficult to swallow if not on the Nimrod MR fleet and no such opportunities existed on R1/Sentinel/Sentry.

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember John Gill showing me a photo of the last All Knocker crew with a shack and steam train in the shot, it was at Ballykelly so it could have been the early 80's:eek:.

1880s? :} .

[Hugh S]

PFMG,

I understand your argument but we are effectively talking about substitution pay in another form. It's not a case of having a new open scheme for MACr, it's about bums on seats during a manning crisis.

If there are too few AEOs in the system and no facility to commission WSOps as AEOs then surely it is unfair not to offer a substitution package - in the same way as other trades operate.

The MRA4 may be about six years late but PMA had no contingency plan for a delay into service. The cost of raising the PAS threshold to 28 for the MACr AEOs selected would be tiny.

[BEagle]

The MRA4 may be about six years late...
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Back to school to learn sums for you, Baldrick!

Nimrod MRA4 was originally 'Nimrod 2000'; 2008-2000 = 8, going on 9 years late.....:eek:

Not long now until Comet/Nimrod's 60th birthday on 27 July 2009. Any bets as to whether 't Bungling Baron's clog dancing folk at 't werrks are going to be able to get the MRA4 in service before then?

[Pontius Navigator]

Comet 1:The Comet 1 first flight was on 9th January 1951 and it entered service on the 22nd March 1951

Comet 4:The first flight took place on 27th April 1958 with the first delivery being on 30th September 1958

[BEagle]

The de Havilland Comet airliner first flew on the 27th of July 1949 in the hands of Group Captain John "Cat's Eyes" Cunningham. Three years later, on 2nd May 1952, it changed the world. On that day Comet 1 G-ALYP carried fare-paying passengers from London to Johannesburg and the jet-age was born.

Do you really think that a totally new airliner could go from first flight to being in service in just over 2 months, PN?

To be precise, the first prototype G-5-1 first flew on 27 Jul 1949 and was later re-registered as G-ALVG for its customer, the Ministry of Supply. The first production Comet 1 aircraft for BOAC, G-ALYP, first flew on 9 Jan 1951 but wasn't delivered to BOAC until April 1952. It later crashed in Jan 1954 after taking off from Rome.

[davejb]

And before you start, I know that an AEO is carried on the MR2

- A little harsh, surely?* I mean to say - they're listed as crew after all ;)

Substitition pay sounds right, to be slightly serious for a moment.

Now back to the wit and repartee -
'How long has the retraining taken....or were they selected for their ability to say 'AEO concurs' already?

Dave

*And don't call me Shirley....

[Strato Q]

Nimrod MRA4 was originally 'Nimrod 2000'; 2008-2000 = 8, going on 9 years late.....

Beags,

To split hairs, the Nimrod 2000 original ISD was 2003 with the MRA4 ISD set in wet concrete as Dec 2010, I make that 7 years late.

[Hugh S]

Beags:
Back to school to learn sums for you, Baldrick!

Nimrod MRA4 was originally 'Nimrod 2000'; 2008-2000 = 8, going on 9 years late

The revised Nimrod MRA4 ISD set in 1998 (4 years prior to the end of commissioning AEOs) was 2005. The current projected ISD is 2011.

I'm not sure about your maths but by my calculations 2011-2005 = 6 years!

[BEagle]

Whichever figures you use, it is still WAY beyond the original entry into service date!

ISD normally means 50% delivered, IIRC, not entry into service.

[Hugh S]

The first MRA4 isn't due at Kinloss until early 2010 so an ISD of December 2010 is pretty optimistic.

Dave:

'How long has the retraining taken....or were they selected for their ability to say 'AEO concurs' already?

The OCU had previously been extended to teach the AEO students how to add 5 degrees and 2 kts to any submarine tracking information :}. I expect the course can be shortened now.

[Biggus]

I believe MRA4 ISD is defined as 4 a/c delivered and 6 crews trained to fly them. Given that the first is due to arrive Jan 2010, and subsequent ones at approx 3 monthly intervals, ISD of Dec 2010 is achievable - IF THE AIRCRAFT ACTUALLY ARRIVE ON THE CURRENT PLANNED TIMESCALE!!!



P.S Since approx a third of captains on the fleet are AEOs, will these MACR AEOs be elligible for captaincy, and if not - WHY NOT??????

[Safety_Helmut]

ISD normally means 50% delivered, IIRC, not entry into service.

It's defined specifically for each project Beag's.

S_H

[Charlie Luncher]

NLH
Will have the fridge stocked for you, it was the pink cruisers you preferred wasn't? :eek: Bring your hat as it is getting piggin hot already 33c today:cool:
Beags I do hope your not getting the old man disorders :}
Charlie sends

[SirToppamHat]

Not an Adminer myself, but I thought Substitution Pay was paid only in those situations where someone was doing their boss's job at the same time at their own?

The pay is not just designed to recompense those covering a slightly more senior post than they might normally be expected to do, but also the additional time necessary to cover the extra post.

By the way, have the MACRs themselves brought this up officially? I've never met one who couldn't stand-up for himself!

I'll be amazed if we ever get the MRA4; I can't believe there's enough money in the pot.

STH

[Dimmer Switch]

SirToppers,

I think you're right about Substitution Pay - the "as well as" factor is the key.
However, I'd be very surprised if any of these 3 particular individuals will have "brought this up officially" in the sense that I think you mean. I don't believe they'll feel they've been put upon; indeed I think they'll be taking this on very willingly, so I don't think they'll be registering complaints. I'm equally certain that their Sqn bosses and Stn Cdrs will all have tried everything they can think of to get them some reward. The bureaucracy just isn't flexible enough to allow such recognition.

P.S. Antipodean Charlie - they're talking about lunch over on the Formation Flying thread - I assume that's still one of your few specialities :ok:

[BEagle]

No, Charlie, the only damp cushions are the ones in the Mighty Bunter under the food-powered GPS' ar$e! Covered in pie crumbs and bits of cream cake too!
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

As you will have surmised, you're not missing anything over here! Enjoy Godzone!!

[Gulf Flyer]

If the only source of 'AEOs' is from the NCA cadre - and there are no more commissions, then restructure the way you do business. You can't hang on to a system that is in terminal decline.

I agree with a previous post, most suitable FS/MACR would jump at the chance - then wait until the next job evaluation is carried out for Air Manning (WSOps) to formalise the posts/conditions of service.

GF

[circle kay]

Ok I'll ask the obvious question that 80% of people on visits to the Tac Area ask, "but what does the AEO actually do"?

Good luck to the guys, all have just come off 'empowered' postings, so a bit of a rest by the Martell window will be welcomed.

They will, I'm sure, make top notch AEOs; a post who everyone who has spent time on the kipper fleet is well aware, that a good one is worth his weight in gold; a bad one, well, replacement by an extra bottle of tomato sauce is always a fair swap!

[TheSmiter]

They will, I'm sure, make top notch AEOs


Hear hear ck, the calibre of the 3 chaps you're talking about puts them firmly in the gold dust category rather than the ketchup side (which is quite a high valuation for some of the O2 thieves we could have been lumbered with). Anyone who's been away from Kipper Airways more than 6-7 years would find it difficult to keep up with the current crop of Comms managers, even though they are mostly northern tikes.

Going back to Hugh's point, has anybody asked the 3 AEO's-to-be, what they're getting out of the deal other than helping Manning out of a tight spot?

Anyway, message to PMA

http://www.petpeek.info/images/index2_r4_c1.gif

An AEO is for life.

Feed em the odd biscuit and they'll drool all over you
Treat em bad, and they'll bite you in the 'erss.


(Nice pic Anita - wish my pet AEO looked that cute!)

[Hugh S]

Going back to Hugh's point, has anybody asked the 3 AEO's-to-be, what they're getting out of the deal other than helping Manning out of a tight spot?

At the moment it's nothing more than a pat on the back and the promise of a window seat on the MRA4.

[getsometimein]

Look at it from the other side...

I believe the NCA-AEO's have been offered comms manager positions on the MRA4... This now obviously leaves a lovely way for the current AEO's to transfer through to MRA4 with minimal training and without having to effectively remuster as navs...

[Strato Q]

There will not be any AEOs in the Information Manager's seat (nee Comms Op) - it is an NCA post. AEOs will fill one of the Tacco posts as will Navs - or should I say WSOs.

[Hugh S]

AEOs will fill one of the Tacco posts

Although there are quite a few sharp AEOs on the fleet who will have no problem slotting into the role of Tacco, there are also a few that struggle to tie their shoelaces!

[Roger the cabin boy]

(Forgive the old money)

There is fairly positive talk of the re-introduction of commissioning for Loadies, although I don't know if that is just within RW, or for FW too. Last I heard, it was for re-introduction next year.

What I also don't know if is this is being looked at for the other NCA trades - but AEOps would seem have a good argument. Particularly when you look at the number of AEOps now serving on helos as Crewmen. It would be very interesting if Crewman A (Loady) could get commissioned but Crewman B (AEOp) could not.

Anyone in the know care to comment?

[EdSett100]

I, too, have heard about the commissioning possibility within a targetted area of the RW ALM cadre. I understand that is not to provide a Sqn ALM Ldr but to provide an ALM in the staff officer area of the RW world, with a view to moving up the food chain and taking hands-on experience to an appropriate level. I don't suppose there will be many volunteers for this. In many respects it is a different concept to the AEOp to AEO role change.

For many years I have listened to the AEOps, quite rightly, commenting that many MAEOps (and some FS AEOps) could do as well as many AEOs on the Nimrod. That opportunity has now arrived and should be grabbed and taken forward. We should forget about the pay disparity between the MACR and the old AEOs on PAS Band Ridiculous. A MEng does exactly the same job on the jet as a PAS Sqn Ldr Eng. The same goes for the ALMs (or it did a few years ago). This has always been the case since we had commissioned rear crew sitting in the same seat as the NCOs, doing the same job in the air. A more appropriate pay comparison, today, should be between the MACR on PAS versus what a young, ex NCA, Fg Off AEO/Eng/ALM would be paid with flying pay, if we continued to commission them.

Its not my area but, from an outsider's perspective, I think that overall this is good move, warts and all.

Ed Sett

[NP20]

Not an Adminer myself, but I thought Substitution Pay was paid only in those situations where someone was doing their boss's job at the same time at their own?

This changed a few years ago, and unless it has changed back in the last 12 months, you no longer have to be doing your own job plus that of a higher rank to qualify for subs pay; just doing a job established at a higher rank than your own will attract subs pay.

Though I don't think that MACRs would get the old Branch rates of subs pay that used to make it worthwhile, and there may be a time limit on how long you can be in receipt of subs pay.

[Sideshow Bob]

As Edsett pointed out earlier, I think there is no case for an MAeop to claim substitution pay for carrying out a Flt Lt job. Other NCA have been doing the same job as their Commissioned Aircrew for some time (including MEng and MAlm acting as leaders and Flt Lt and Sqn Ldrs acting as just crewmen). I understand that there are some subtle differences with the Aeops, ie it is not quite the same job, but is this not just the same as an MAcr taking a posting in an SO2 role?

[Hoots]

There are sufficient numbers of AEO's around in ground posts, so why don't we send them back to where they are required. If they threaten to PVR then let them. They do get flying pay or are PAS after all, so primary task or desk job that is the question.

[AQAfive]

In my last (MACR) post before retirement, I applied and got substitition pay as my Sqn Ldr Engineer (ground) was on a course. He was a new Sqn Ldr and I got paid more than he, (he left his pay chit on his desk, whether to keep away from wife or impress the lads was never determined!), I was therefore unsure what I was due.

I seem to remember there was a complex formula involving the renumeration of engineering branch officers, but I did get a pay rise for that month, although it took a while for it to appear. And as some have said, the rules have (or had prior to JPA) changed, you only have to have a boss away on a course for at least a month (I think, not sure) and not on leave. By default you probably do his and your own job anyway.

If the posts become established, then the question of substitution pay does not arise. The moral issue, however, will remain. They will probably become a FO/MACR post anyway, that will cover PMA backs. As you can probably tell, my last post turned me into an admin nut, lost all my siggy credibility, (if I ever had any!)

Back to the original thread, I remember the AE Ldr complaining to the captain of our jet, a pilot, that used the lead dry as the AEO on an SAR sortie because the AEO went sick just prior to call out. There was much complaining, mainly, one felt, that if the precident was set someone might question the need for the AEO, after all the original requirement for one had long been lost.

The last all knocker crew on Shacks was back in the 60's, not 80's. The captian, a smooth looking guy, was later commissioned and was I think a Wg Cdr. Can't remember his name but if anyone with the time cares to trawl CXX sqn history, you will find all the details there with a picture of the crew, and train? can't remember.

[Mr Point]

We should forget about the pay disparity between the MACR and the old AEOs on PAS Band Ridiculous. A MEng does exactly the same job on the jet as a PAS Sqn Ldr Eng.

But they don't have the same comparable role on the ground do they? Either have all AEOs as MACR, in the same way as Crewman Leaders and WSOp Leaders are now MACR, or a mixture of commissioned and non-commissioned AEOs all on the same PAS level - they ARE carrying out the same overall roles in the air and on the ground.

I agree that this situation has potential benefits for the WSOp trade but if a Flt Lt was filling an SO2 PIC due to a lack of Sqn Ldrs, I am fairly sure he wouldn't be content to stay on Flt Lts' pay.

[Sideshow Bob]

Mr Point
Do you mean in the same way we all get the same rate flying pay for carrying out the same duties airborne? :hmm:

[Hugh S]

Do you mean in the same way we all get the same rate flying pay for carrying out the same duties airborne?

Does that make it right? The fact that commissioned rear-crew have historically been given more flying pay does not mean that a MACR carrying out the same role should get less.

The fundamental difference is this: a Flt Lt pilot's top rate of flying pay is £35.84. An AAC Non-Commissioned aircraft commander's top rate of flying pay is also £35.84. They are both doing the same job with similar retention problems.

I accept that the PAS for non-commissioned pilots is disproportionate but traditional flying pay is not.

This is the only case I can thing of where a MACR is carrying out exactly the same role as a Commissioned Officer in the air AND on the ground.

[davejb]

A Nimrod MACr AEO, unless a crew captain, is going to be doing the same job as a Flt Lt Nimrod AEO, surely, except that the Flt Lt is potentially selectable as crew captain, while the MACr is not?

Seems to me that (A) is doing the same as (B), and there ought to be a measure of financial compensation to reflect this - otherwise ehy not have an SAC acting as Station Commander when that worthy is on leave? Pay should reflect the expertise brought to a role, and the responsibility shouldered, and MACr AEO's are going to be delivering on both counts.

Alternatively dig AEOs out of ground posts and stick them in Martel - some, in my day at least, went from comissioning to ground tour without going to a sqn along the way. (In one case PVRing when the sqn tour became inevitable).

Fast track comissions sound okay - a mate of mine went for one, and was quizzed about the aerials on the E3D at his (failed) interview... 'how would you tell an RAF E3D from a NATO one?' the question ran, the answer being aerial related (why somebody from the kipper fleet should give a toss I am still trying to work out - do AWACS types get asked about Nimrods?) - my mate's answer "I think the bloody great roundels on the fuselage would be a giveaway" apparently wasn't in accord with the official answer sheet.

[Sideshow Bob]

This is the only case I can thing of where a MACR is carrying out exactly the same role as a Commissioned Officer in the air AND on the ground.
Not really, an Empowered MEng or MAlm, carrys out the same job, in the air AND on the ground, as a commissioned AEng or Alm. Commissioned AEng can be aircraft commanders also. There is no extra pay in either of these cases so why should it be different for Aeops.

[Mr Point]

The SAR Force the crewman leader posts are filled by MACR but used to be manned by a Flt Lt. I believe SH has gone this way as well. I was under the impression that ALM and AEng Flt Lts were being replaced by MACR in the vast majority of rearcrew leader posts across the RAF.

Commissioned AEng can be aircraft commanders also.

Excuse my ignorance but which aircraft type has a commissioned AEng as aircraft commander?

[PingDit]

All seems an obvious and sensible way ahead. At least we'll get the job done properly.:E

[Sideshow Bob]

Excuse my ignorance but which aircraft type has a commissioned AEng as aircraft commander?
Nimrod MR2 did but has no longer

[EdSett100]

Quote:
Excuse my ignorance but which aircraft type has a commissioned AEng as aircraft commander? Unquote.

Nimrod MR2 did but has no longer

I'm not sure that is correct. It is possible that a commissioned eng would have been a Detcom for a 2 crew det. There certainly has been a few Sqn Ldr engs on the Nimrod who would have been Detcoms but not, IMHO, captains/aircraft commanders.

Anyway, back to the point: we're going through a period of transition whereby MACR are steadily replacing commissioned aircrew for better or worse; only time will tell. Yes, for a few years, there will be disparity in pay in the airborne environment, but its not a new concept. We have had, and will continue to have in the future, young (?) Flt Lt capts in charge of crews comprising Sqn Ldrs and MACR on the PA Spine. Life's not perfect....

Regards
Ed Sett

[The Gorilla]

Excuse my ignorance but which aircraft type has a commissioned AEng as aircraft commander?

Hahahahah that's had me rolling about with laughter all day :}:}:}:}:}:):):)

Aircraft Captain yeah right heeehhheee.

You guys crack me up!!

:D