Non-Commissioned Nimrod Air Electronics Officers (II)
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Non-Commissioned Nimrod Air Electronics Officers (II)
Aside from the obvious comments about keeping the sun off the tac screen and operating the dimmers switch, the fact that three master aircrew will soon be filling the role of AEO on the Nimrod MR2 is another example of PMA mismanagement.
The first three AEOps selected (WSOps in new money) are all very capable, professional and, in my opinion, nice blokes, but there is no proposed substitution pay or tangible sweetener.
Commissioned AEOs (WSO) can reach level 28 on the PAS ladder but MACr have a ceiling of level 20, some £8000 less, for carrying out the same role with the same responsibility on the same aircraft.
Managerial responsibilities are still the same and there can be no sensible argument regarding captaincy as not all AEOs make captain.
The new situation is likely to create resentment. Current AEOs will surely see this move as a threat to their status while the AEOp (WSOp) cadre will view the change as further erosion of experience, and an attitude from PMA that NCA will simply carry out the same role for less pay.
Why not offer a fast-track commissioned warrant officer to selected candidates and level the playing field or raise the PAS threshold in line with existing AEOs?
The first three AEOps selected (WSOps in new money) are all very capable, professional and, in my opinion, nice blokes, but there is no proposed substitution pay or tangible sweetener.
Commissioned AEOs (WSO) can reach level 28 on the PAS ladder but MACr have a ceiling of level 20, some £8000 less, for carrying out the same role with the same responsibility on the same aircraft.
Managerial responsibilities are still the same and there can be no sensible argument regarding captaincy as not all AEOs make captain.
The new situation is likely to create resentment. Current AEOs will surely see this move as a threat to their status while the AEOp (WSOp) cadre will view the change as further erosion of experience, and an attitude from PMA that NCA will simply carry out the same role for less pay.
Why not offer a fast-track commissioned warrant officer to selected candidates and level the playing field or raise the PAS threshold in line with existing AEOs?
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Don't stop there
I remember John Gill showing me a photo of the last All Knocker crew with a shack and steam train in the shot, it was at Ballykelly so it could have been the early 80's
.
As a WOFF or MACR in very old money I had to do 2.3 weeks of KFS course, 2 of which were camping in the hills(please no 201 SQN jokes
) then back to the OCU. I did have to move to the outer colonies of the realm though chilly 29c today.
I think good luck to the dudes, I just hope they are supported well on both sides, the question is - is it easier to cuff the baby nav from radio or the sunshade seat
.
I only have a little Dimmer Switch, not sure how it would look in white jeans(cue Bee Gees music
).
Charlie the splitter sends.
.As a WOFF or MACR in very old money I had to do 2.3 weeks of KFS course, 2 of which were camping in the hills(please no 201 SQN jokes
) then back to the OCU. I did have to move to the outer colonies of the realm though chilly 29c today. I think good luck to the dudes, I just hope they are supported well on both sides, the question is - is it easier to cuff the baby nav from radio or the sunshade seat
.I only have a little Dimmer Switch, not sure how it would look in white jeans(cue Bee Gees music
).Charlie the splitter sends.
Hugh,
I remember about ten years ago we went through the same iteration where selected Masters flew as AEO. At the time it was an expediency measure which faded away fairly rapidly.
From what you are saying it seems that this new "initiative" looks fairly permanent.
Looks like the policy, when everyone went WSO/Op, has now come back to bite. I was always a supporter of getting the most capable guy in the Tac seat, but the implementation for the knockers took away opportunities rather than creating more.
Yet again, the air force missed out due to the blinkered views of a few senior officer navs.
And be advised I am a Nav with just a few hours as Nav Captain but too many knockers were ignored for some of the dross we got as Nav 2's and too many idiots were commissioned as AEOs because of their officer qualities! rather than their potential to contribute to the Tac Team.
Charlie L,
Hopefully meet up for a beer soon in the VPI bar (again), should be coming out to do some planning for a trial.
Regards to all in Maritime (wherever you are)
I remember about ten years ago we went through the same iteration where selected Masters flew as AEO. At the time it was an expediency measure which faded away fairly rapidly.
From what you are saying it seems that this new "initiative" looks fairly permanent.
Looks like the policy, when everyone went WSO/Op, has now come back to bite. I was always a supporter of getting the most capable guy in the Tac seat, but the implementation for the knockers took away opportunities rather than creating more.
Yet again, the air force missed out due to the blinkered views of a few senior officer navs.
And be advised I am a Nav with just a few hours as Nav Captain but too many knockers were ignored for some of the dross we got as Nav 2's and too many idiots were commissioned as AEOs because of their officer qualities! rather than their potential to contribute to the Tac Team.
Charlie L,
Hopefully meet up for a beer soon in the VPI bar (again), should be coming out to do some planning for a trial.
Regards to all in Maritime (wherever you are)
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One would imagine the best candidates would already be PAS MACR, in which case they have signed up to forego any commissioning aspirations. Heightened PAS thresholds would be nice be would be difficult to swallow if not on the Nimrod MR fleet and no such opportunities existed on R1/Sentinel/Sentry.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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PFMG,
I understand your argument but we are effectively talking about substitution pay in another form. It's not a case of having a new open scheme for MACr, it's about bums on seats during a manning crisis.
If there are too few AEOs in the system and no facility to commission WSOps as AEOs then surely it is unfair not to offer a substitution package - in the same way as other trades operate.
The MRA4 may be about six years late but PMA had no contingency plan for a delay into service. The cost of raising the PAS threshold to 28 for the MACr AEOs selected would be tiny.
I understand your argument but we are effectively talking about substitution pay in another form. It's not a case of having a new open scheme for MACr, it's about bums on seats during a manning crisis.
If there are too few AEOs in the system and no facility to commission WSOps as AEOs then surely it is unfair not to offer a substitution package - in the same way as other trades operate.
The MRA4 may be about six years late but PMA had no contingency plan for a delay into service. The cost of raising the PAS threshold to 28 for the MACr AEOs selected would be tiny.
The MRA4 may be about six years late...
Back to school to learn sums for you, Baldrick!
Nimrod MRA4 was originally 'Nimrod 2000'; 2008-2000 = 8, going on 9 years late.....
Not long now until Comet/Nimrod's 60th birthday on 27 July 2009. Any bets as to whether 't Bungling Baron's clog dancing folk at 't werrks are going to be able to get the MRA4 in service before then?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Comet 1:The Comet 1 first flight was on 9th January 1951 and it entered service on the 22nd March 1951
Comet 4:The first flight took place on 27th April 1958 with the first delivery being on 30th September 1958
Comet 4:The first flight took place on 27th April 1958 with the first delivery being on 30th September 1958
The de Havilland Comet airliner first flew on the 27th of July 1949 in the hands of Group Captain John "Cat's Eyes" Cunningham. Three years later, on 2nd May 1952, it changed the world. On that day Comet 1 G-ALYP carried fare-paying passengers from London to Johannesburg and the jet-age was born.
To be precise, the first prototype G-5-1 first flew on 27 Jul 1949 and was later re-registered as G-ALVG for its customer, the Ministry of Supply. The first production Comet 1 aircraft for BOAC, G-ALYP, first flew on 9 Jan 1951 but wasn't delivered to BOAC until April 1952. It later crashed in Jan 1954 after taking off from Rome.
Last edited by BEagle; 11th Oct 2008 at 15:32.
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And before you start, I know that an AEO is carried on the MR2
Substitition pay sounds right, to be slightly serious for a moment.
Now back to the wit and repartee -
'How long has the retraining taken....or were they selected for their ability to say 'AEO concurs' already?
Dave
*And don't call me Shirley....
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Nimrod MRA4 was originally 'Nimrod 2000'; 2008-2000 = 8, going on 9 years late.....
To split hairs, the Nimrod 2000 original ISD was 2003 with the MRA4 ISD set in wet concrete as Dec 2010, I make that 7 years late.
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Beags:
The revised Nimrod MRA4 ISD set in 1998 (4 years prior to the end of commissioning AEOs) was 2005. The current projected ISD is 2011.
I'm not sure about your maths but by my calculations 2011-2005 = 6 years!
Back to school to learn sums for you, Baldrick!
Nimrod MRA4 was originally 'Nimrod 2000'; 2008-2000 = 8, going on 9 years late
Nimrod MRA4 was originally 'Nimrod 2000'; 2008-2000 = 8, going on 9 years late
I'm not sure about your maths but by my calculations 2011-2005 = 6 years!
Last edited by Hugh S; 11th Oct 2008 at 19:37. Reason: Quoted Strato Q, not BEagle
Whichever figures you use, it is still WAY beyond the original entry into service date!
ISD normally means 50% delivered, IIRC, not entry into service.
ISD normally means 50% delivered, IIRC, not entry into service.
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The first MRA4 isn't due at Kinloss until early 2010 so an ISD of December 2010 is pretty optimistic.
Dave:
The OCU had previously been extended to teach the AEO students how to add 5 degrees and 2 kts to any submarine tracking information 
. I expect the course can be shortened now.
Dave:
'How long has the retraining taken....or were they selected for their ability to say 'AEO concurs' already?
. I expect the course can be shortened now.
I believe MRA4 ISD is defined as 4 a/c delivered and 6 crews trained to fly them. Given that the first is due to arrive Jan 2010, and subsequent ones at approx 3 monthly intervals, ISD of Dec 2010 is achievable - IF THE AIRCRAFT ACTUALLY ARRIVE ON THE CURRENT PLANNED TIMESCALE!!!
P.S Since approx a third of captains on the fleet are AEOs, will these MACR AEOs be elligible for captaincy, and if not - WHY NOT??????
P.S Since approx a third of captains on the fleet are AEOs, will these MACR AEOs be elligible for captaincy, and if not - WHY NOT??????
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More beer
NLH
Will have the fridge stocked for you, it was the pink cruisers you preferred wasn't? Bring your hat as it is getting piggin hot already 33c today
Beags I do hope your not getting the old man disorders
Charlie sends
Will have the fridge stocked for you, it was the pink cruisers you preferred wasn't?
Bring your hat as it is getting piggin hot already 33c todayBeags I do hope your not getting the old man disorders
Charlie sends
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Not an Adminer myself, but I thought Substitution Pay was paid only in those situations where someone was doing their boss's job at the same time at their own?
The pay is not just designed to recompense those covering a slightly more senior post than they might normally be expected to do, but also the additional time necessary to cover the extra post.
By the way, have the MACRs themselves brought this up officially? I've never met one who couldn't stand-up for himself!
I'll be amazed if we ever get the MRA4; I can't believe there's enough money in the pot.
STH
The pay is not just designed to recompense those covering a slightly more senior post than they might normally be expected to do, but also the additional time necessary to cover the extra post.
By the way, have the MACRs themselves brought this up officially? I've never met one who couldn't stand-up for himself!
I'll be amazed if we ever get the MRA4; I can't believe there's enough money in the pot.
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SirToppers,
I think you're right about Substitution Pay - the "as well as" factor is the key.
However, I'd be very surprised if any of these 3 particular individuals will have "brought this up officially" in the sense that I think you mean. I don't believe they'll feel they've been put upon; indeed I think they'll be taking this on very willingly, so I don't think they'll be registering complaints. I'm equally certain that their Sqn bosses and Stn Cdrs will all have tried everything they can think of to get them some reward. The bureaucracy just isn't flexible enough to allow such recognition.
P.S. Antipodean Charlie - they're talking about lunch over on the Formation Flying thread - I assume that's still one of your few specialities
I think you're right about Substitution Pay - the "as well as" factor is the key.
However, I'd be very surprised if any of these 3 particular individuals will have "brought this up officially" in the sense that I think you mean. I don't believe they'll feel they've been put upon; indeed I think they'll be taking this on very willingly, so I don't think they'll be registering complaints. I'm equally certain that their Sqn bosses and Stn Cdrs will all have tried everything they can think of to get them some reward. The bureaucracy just isn't flexible enough to allow such recognition.
P.S. Antipodean Charlie - they're talking about lunch over on the Formation Flying thread - I assume that's still one of your few specialities
No, Charlie, the only damp cushions are the ones in the Mighty Bunter under the food-powered GPS' ar$e! Covered in pie crumbs and bits of cream cake too!
As you will have surmised, you're not missing anything over here! Enjoy Godzone!!
As you will have surmised, you're not missing anything over here! Enjoy Godzone!!
Last edited by BEagle; 12th Oct 2008 at 06:09.