operations normal.

[cortilla]

I was flying the other day from a busy london airport. Just after we rotated (well around 1000' agl) tower frequency asked us if we were operations normal. i was PF and the captain was doing the radios. We were reasonably busy at the time (changing headings cleaning up etc etc) and the captain didn't reply to the ops normal question.

On being handed over to the next frequency the tower again asked if we were ops normal, to which the captain replied affirm.

Now neither the captain nor i had ever heard this before, and not sure why the tower would ask this (Also it was night time). The only thing i can think of was that i had a slightly slower rotation than normal (but not excessively slow)

Why would a tower ask this?? Wouldn't the tower wait for a pan or a mayday if there was a problem. Also why tell us to contact the next frequency if he had doubt about our operational status.

Not a criticism of the controller just slightly confused.:8

[radar707]

Were you late in rasing the gear?

Tower may have seen something unusual after yuo had rotated and rather than say I saw a smoke from your port engine or whatever they saw that was unusual just asked.

[Spitoon]

I think it may originate with the mil. Heard it used over the years occasionally and even picked it up myself a couple of times. It seems to be a very quick way to check that all is OK if something from the outside looks odd somehow.

If the answer is yes, all well and good and sorry for puzzling you, if the crew have got a problem a quick "no - call you" will be enough to start getting any services that might be handy moving a few seconds earlier than waiting for the mayday.

[Gonzo]

I was thinking along the same lines as radar707, but then surely we'd all tell the crew what we had seen if we had seen something unusual?

[Double Hydco]

The last time I heard ATC asking an aircraft if they were "ops normal" was at Stansted a few years back, when they were about to reduce the runway length for WIP overnight.

I assumed at the time that they were checking the aircraft wasn't intending to return to the field before they let the work teams onto the runway?

I think a couple of the London airports (including EGSS) are doing night runway works at the moment?

DH

[radarman]

From what I remember from RAF days, 'Ops Normal' is a call originated by low level helos, Nimrods and the like that operate for lengthy periods of time on an operational frequency. Depending on SOP's, they will pop up on an ATC frequency every half hour or so and report 'Ops Normal'. This is nothing more than a call to say 'Hello chaps, don't worry. We're still here and everything is fine'. There is often a requirement to pass this info on to the aircraft's operating agency, and everyone knows what the message means.

However, an out-of-the-blue request from civil ATC concerning Ops Normal can mean all things to all men, and should not be used. It is basically a military phrase, and is about as useful as asking a civil pilot to report 'Feet Wet'.

[Vlad the Impaler]

Would have been at Stansted about 2255z. We are doing some reduced distance runway work at night and after the last dep goes we wait 5 mins and shut. Obviously what with aircrew being generally tight lipped about any kind of problem we like to make doubly sure you don't plan on coming back in a hurry as the runway is closed for up to 15 mins to prepare for reduced distance ops. If you think this is a bad idea then I will ask ops to review the procedure, it does seem slightly pointless and when I asked it the other night it occurred to me that the crew may think I had seen something untoward...

[Gonzo]

And of course you can only check if things are 'ops normal' at that point. Five seconds later all hell might be breaking loose!

[fireflybob]

Certainly recall the use of "Ops Normal" on (civil) long haul in the 1970s

[John Hill]

I doubt that "ops normal" can be considered restricted to military use. In the 60's when operating an HF Oceanic communications position all aircraft were expected to give an "ops normal" every 30 minutes, as far as I know it really only meant that everything was going according to plan.

For any ground station to ask "are you OK" in this way seems very odd to me. In the few instances when I have had a concern for an aircraft at take off I have either kept quiet or stated my observation. The former occured when an aircraft departed in a very strange attitude and never climbed out of ground effect (DH89a when cargo has slipped to the rear) and the latter when I saw vapour trailing from a DHC6 (fuel leak or fuel cap, cant recall exactly).

[radarman]

John Hill,

You are right about 'Ops Normal' not being limited to military. All I meant was that I had only heard the phrase in military circles. The important point is that in 'those days' both aircrew and ATC knew what the phrase meant, and when to use it.

The danger in using Ops Normal nowadays is that it has no proper definition. So ATC can ask the question based on their understanding of what it means, but the pilot interprets it differently and gives an answer that misleads ATC. Cue cock-up. Gonzo also makes a good point.

I'm surprised that in these days of the omni-present NATS R/T police SS are using this non-standard phrase. Hope the SS LCE's don't know Vlad's true identity. := :=

[Gonzo]

SS LCE's

I thought we were trying to get away from LCE being seen as police, let alone Gestapo!:}

[Vlad the Impaler]

The SS LCE's will be delighted that I am following the procedure as laid out in the appropriate runway works temporary operating instruction which dictates that I should ask that question, in those words, of the last departure before declaring the runway closed........
But thanks for your concern radarman, my ticket is safe. I hope that the Heathrow LCE's will be as helpful.

[cortilla]

It was stansted, we were the last aircraft out before the runway shut and that explains it.

It was slightly confusing because we honestly thought for a little while that he might have spotted something wrong. I asked the captain if he could clarify with tower what was meant by it but he didn't want to.

Cheers for the replies.

[Gargleblaster]

I've heard the phrase "Report normal operation" from TWR many times, requesting a twin engined school flight to report when both engines were operating normally after a simulated engine out after departure.

[Tower Ranger]

The ops normal call is a very standard bit of rtf in the Belfast area. Although the festivities have died down a bit there it was not too long ago that 2 helicopters sat on top of the city to relay coms etc. As the unit had only primary radar they were invisible and so an ops normal call every 30 mins or for a qnh change was just a normal thing. I can`t remember ever having used it to a civilian aircraft but my memory ain`t what it used to be.

[Lon More]

An illustration of the confusion.
Back in nineteen canteen an early arriving Tradewinds CL44 was in the hold at Beek, waiting for the field to open. Amsterdam instructed him to squawk A21. At that time A31 was used for unlawful interference and according to Sod's Law that was selected. Much questioning about Ops. Normal, misreading of transponder setting by the crew, and general hilarity as the Mil struggled to get something airborne (it was a mid summer Sunday morning). Airport manager added to the fun by refusing landing permission. Eventually things quietened down and he landed to be surrounded by all available police and military units.
For all concerned there was neither coffee nor biscuits for the rest of the morning :=