Why I am encouraged

[jnvivier]

Give me a job on an outback ranch in West QLd scouting for wild cattle, or flying supplies and tourists round the okovanga in botswana anyday!

Until recently I was discouraged reading all the posts about lack of jobs for new CPL, MEIR pilots until i realised that the the posters were all actually crazy people looking to get straight into an airline with 200 hours. Have I lost touch with reality? Is this ACTUALLY what is expected?! Companies should be wary of people who want to skip the foundation of aviation and get straight into the castle. Maybe it is a symptom of a generation that encourages 'yuppiness'. You want to be a jet pilot while you are still young and sexy? How about becoming a man first!

This is not a gripe of an nostalgic old man.. i'm 22 and looking for my first job. Why am i encouraged? I am encouraged because while others are falling over themselves with surreal dillusions to the point of hanging themselves with their ties (which they haven't earned), i can work my way up through the real world and wave as i fly by in my trusty Cessna 206 with its bung door.

[redsnail]

"trusty" and "C206" aren't often used together. :ooh:

Personally, I agree. To go straight from flight school to a RHS in a jet means you've missed out on a lot of fun and learning experiences. It's not always necessary to do the full on bush efforts then flog around in a turboprop before being allowed near a jet, however, all steps have taught me a lot - skills and experience I still use today.

Anyway, in Europe and the UK they don't have GA as the Africans, NZ, Aussies, Yanks and Canucks know it.

[jnvivier]

Oh ok. so is there actually very little choice but to go into airlines straight off the bat?
Haha 206's may not go forever.. but at least when the engine does fall out you can just glide into a paddock!

[redsnail]

You assume there's a paddock.... :ooh:

Europe is a different market to Australia and NZ.

[Superpilot]

Sure we'd all like the chance to fly some rare animal breed to rescue; spray farmer John's backyard or carry dangerous chemicals across the Sahara but i'll put it to you that this is even more of a fantasy than a newbie coming straight out of flying school and getting a jet job! These sort of roles often require much more than the bare minimum 200 hours flying time. Come on, be fair! It's more than just about getting into a jet. A jet job is the only pilot's job that (mostly) guarantees the following:


Safe working environment
Well paid (most of us have debts to pay due to flying)
Well paid (most of us pay rent/mortgages)
Well paid (because we want to be)
Job security (well, mostly)
Reasonable roster stability (some of us have family life to plan around)
Tend to have a local base (all of us have loved ones we need to be around even once in a while)


I value the above items more than the thrills and experience a bush pilot's job can offer. Any day! And for that I'm happy to wait years (personally)

[Wireless]

Hope you're easy going on your definition of the last 3 Superpilot:}

[cyrilroy21]

What i understood from the first post sounds like

Jet jobs are boring :ok:

Crop Dusting , Banner Towing etc very interesting and more thrilling :ok:

Am I right ?

[Wireless]

No not so I'd say for me. I find airline flying interesting in it's own right. I've done GA flying for 6 years and love the memories (most anyway) but it definately had it's day. Wouldn't fancy doing it forever by any stretch. There's other types of flying I fancied along with new challenges. Depends what floats your boat. I thought when I first got a PPL that I'd never want to be anything other than a bush Pilot etc etc but that changed!

[corsair]

jnvivier is right and so is everyone else. My current job is great fun but has no long term viability. I just got off my bank account online after paying a couple of credit card bills. It's still overdrawn despite a couple of good recent flying weeks. Ironic now that the summer is gone, the flying improves!

So I need the airline job eventually for all reasons enumerated in superpilot's post. If I don't then I'll actually have to quit flying professionally and keep my ratings current with a bit of part time work, instructing and whatever else I can keep going. That's the reality I face having mortgages and a wife and kids. She can't subsidise me forever (and won't).

But I completely agree with jnvivier as to the attitude of many newly qualified pilots who just sit back and wait, making no effort to keep flying other than to renew ratings and whinge about how bad it is. Particularly when they have no ties to hold them back. If I was single now. I would be off somewhere having fun while the bad times roll in the airline business.

I actually feel quite lucky, that when someone asks what I do, I have to tell them I'm a working professional pilot, (even though that doesn't allow me to comment in R&N because it's strictly the remit of the 'airline pilot' :rolleyes:). I know quite a few pilots with better qualifications than me getting by in their old career. They usually make a lot more money than me. They envy me. I envy their money. They don't envy my money.

That's the way it is.

[nich-av]

Corsair is very reasonable in his thinking.

If you just graduated a flight training course your best chances are in Africa and in Asia.
If you know the risks of flying in Africa and stay aware, you will be fine.
Too many expect to come out of the flight school with 200 hours and to have an airline waiting there and waving at them.

I think that in the interest of safety, I don't want to see a pilot with less than 1000 hours flying an A320 or B737 no matter if the guy sitting next to him has 30 000 hours.

Be reasonable people, instruct, find any flying job and climb the ladder in a progressive matter. Don't try to jump from a Seneca to an A320.

I agree with Corsair that a bush job in Africa or a RHS job on a King Air/Caravan/Twin Otter/Dash 8 can be as rewarding as a B737 job.

[jnvivier]

Ok so maybe i was a bit harsh! And I should put my points into context by addressing issues bought up here.

-First of all I was aiming my gripe at those young pilots who have the option but would rather whine about jet jobs, if you got into flying with a mortgage and family then you are a braver man than i am!
-I didn't quite realise that there was no GA as such in europe.
-Crop dusting is ag flying, a completely unique and skillfull speciality altogether for those more carefree about job survival. Banner towing is usually a one off job, not exactly full time work there! Unless that is what you like. GA covers a lot of different flying.
-Flying tourists in botswana isn't dangerous, otherwise tourists wouldn't pay $600 a night to stay in lodges that you can only reach by air. Also some guys seem to think I mean this as a long term career option, but really all you do is work at these places for 2 years, get 1800 hours then getting into a jet job is a lot easier.
-I do not think jet jobs are boring!! I just want to work for mine. Its about life experience
-Job security etc in jets? That must be another thing that is different in Europe!

[ausnz]

jnvivier....you know Ive often wondered if half the people on here complaining about no jobs have actually thought about it like you have?
You've touched on a good point, I mean its all nice and easy (not so easy) getting straight into the RHS, but the chances are slim.

I often ask pilots what their favourite memories are of flying and in all honesty (even though they love their highly paid jet jobs), they almost without fail, say the period from getting their CPL to getting in the airline industry, the whole roughing it in out of the way places, flying by the seat of your pants.... thats the character building that has created some AMAZING pilots.

@corsair
I think you've really hit the nail on the head!

...and make sure you have a flat place to land in an engine fail, otherwise you will end up like a family friends fletcher.....he made the paddock....just on the side of a hill (he made it out!)

[Artificial Horizon]

Always makes me laugh this argument that you are not a 'real' pilot until you have worked your way up through the GA ranks and flown in the 'bush'. What a load of cr*p. This is coming from someone who has spent a few years in GA/Instructing/Turboprops and finally the nice Shiny Jet. If I could have gone straight to the nice shiney jet I certainly would of. Having now flown with guys right from the cross section of aviation GA Pilots / ex- Military Pilots / Airline ONLY Pilots all have one thing in common.... Some are exceptional pilots, most are average pilots and some are exceptionally bad pilots. It makes no real difference where they originate from. So when it comes down to it, it you want to fly around the bush then do it, if you want to try and go straight to the airlines then do it. Just please don't get all high and mighty about how one makes a better pilot that the other because that argument is totally boll*cks and is usually the argument used by guys who for one reason or another are jealous of other peoples positions or insecure about their own.

[jnvivier]

In reply to Artificial Horizon.
For all those who can get straight into an airline then good for you that is fine.. my main issue is that if you can't, and there are still other options out there, you shouldn't complain about there being 'no jobs'. If you can't get straight into a jet, there are jobs out there that can get you the experience to do so.

[ausnz]

Thats all I was trying to reiterate, not comment on who is the better pilot, beats being stuck in a desk job waiting for the big break:}

[Grass strip basher]

Sure it is simple economics.... training cost £50-100k depending on route and this is often paid for with a huge loan. The repayment profile of this loan means you can't repay it on a FI/Bush flying salary hence the need for a jet job.... I would love to spend my time flying round the African bush but harsh realities mean it doesn't pay the mortgage. Welcome to the real world.:sad:

[angelorange]

Of course there is GA in Europe!!!!!

It's just some are too blind to notice anything smaller than a 737.

Just look at AOPA, IPA, GAPAN et al.

As for Paddocks - try flying over Lincolnshire UK - pleanty of space for PFLs!

GA pilots out number Airline pilots. PPLs are still active in spite of costs.

From Lightweight machines to Biz Jets the scene is not a s bad as some perceive.

There are FI jobs out there if you are willing to do the leg work.

Best to all

AO

[tupues]

If you could name a couple?
Business aviation is not open to low hours pilots (net-jets for e.g wants 1500hrs) nor is air-taxi due to insurance. That leaves the 'banner towing/para-dropping/glider-tugging' that everyone on here seems to go on about. Firstly that won't pay the bills (most of that type of 'work' is unpaid anyway) and secondly with 20 pilots per month finishing from one integrated course alone, how many banners do you seen around anyway??

The only option is instructing- 60 new fATPLs each month from integrated courses alone. Doesn't take great maths to realise if eveyone did a FI course there wouldn't be enought PPL students to teach!

So to everyone who peddles the 'banner towing/para-dropping/glider-tugging' 'work your way up the chain' line please please give people some of your wisdom and give them a nudge in the direction of these huge banner towing companies....

[redsnail]

Artificial Horizon,

Sorry for the late reply, I've been floating around the Greek Isles on a boat. :ok:

Flying around as a bush pilot isn't the only way, however, I am now living in Europe and here it's a strange market. Bush flying is looked on as pure cowboy stuff and believe it or not, there is an attitude from some quarters that turboprop flying is beneath them. Also, if you've only flown a turboprop then you must have "failed" and so will be very difficult to train up on a jet. :ugh:

The general attitude in Europe is to be an "airline" pilot, as opposed to being a "pilot". Perhaps it's marketing. So, the students will go into enormous amounts of debt thinking it's the only way to become an "airline pilot". Rather than doing the training in steps (modular) or accepting a bonded turboprop job.

As a personal note, do I regret my bush flying experience, definitely not. Do I use the experience from that flying in my jet job, yes I do. Could I have done the training differently, yes. I would have changed schools a lot quicker. But that's another story....

[PPRuNe Towers]

Every response here is conditioned to a greater or lesser extent by where the writer became interested in and took up aviation.

Well worth noting the location from posters and reading their localised forums on PPRuNe to see where they are coming from in terms of aviation culture.

Simply put our forums show that the aviation cultures of Australia and New Zealand are still coming to terms with direct entry to the right seat of a modern transport aircraft.

Roll back the clock five years in our OZ archives and you'll find totally accepted dogma that thousands of hours doing the 'hard yards' are needed to fly a turboprop. The debate is raging over there right now that direct entry effos can't possible get the experience to be a competent commander and that PICUS is the work of the devil.

A few hours reading there also brings on the inevitable conclusion that the training industry there primarily exists to give some sort of living to those who can't or aren't yet ready get into an airline

Similarly is is totally accepted within American circles that you will always have to possess a 4 year degree to ever work for a major airline. It is also common to repeat exams to gain 100% for the resume.

It's different in each area of the world that's all and each poster brings some of that baggage with them. The originating post to the thread isn't sparkling, new or original I'm afraid. It simply reflects cheerful acceptance of exactly what New Zealanders expect to have to do and always have done.

Rob

[Luke SkyToddler]

True to a certain extent PT ... but in these hard times when 200 hour "jet airline" jobs are as rare as rocking horse sh!t, and mostly come with a big poison chalice of buy-a-type-rating and then work for free or worse for your first few hundred hours, I think it's important that someone points out to the UK and European wannabes waiting their turn that there is another whole world of flying out there that they probably havent even considered as a means to build experience and employability.

And yes before someone jumps down my throat, it's damn near impossible for Euro wannabes to get employed in Aus or NZ in bush flying. However I don't see too many Brits hanging out in Maun or PNG or the caribbean / pacific or anywhere else where it's international fair game for anyone who wants to turn up and get stuck in. As you say, I guess it's a cultural thing but it's the European wannabes' loss in my opinion :(

[redsnail]

PPRuNe Towers,

Back in the days when I was flying in Australia, part of the reason for "needing" thousands of hours to get a sniff of a turbine job is because of so many pilots for comparatively few jobs. So the entry to the "better" jobs were artificially difficult. Prior to the '89 bunfight, the thought was you did need thousands of hours to fly jets etc. One possible reason for this belief was that flight training/type rating training wasn't as good as it is now.

Now in Australia there's a pilot shortage. (partially solved by the economic slow down). For the first time in ages you don't need thousands of hours to get a sniff at a Dash 8. Has the remuneration improved, no. Qantaslink did bring in "pay for rating" but then the applications coming in plummeted. Very few bothered. So now they had to go back to paying people to train, even considering schemes for the IR etc. Where they are at the moment I don't know. Most of the experienced captains have left Qantaslink for Virgin Blue. Why? Short sightedness from QF mainline.

Virgin Blue, Qantas, Dragon Air, Cathay etc have snapped up the Rex and Qantaslink turborprop pilots as quickly as they could. While most pilots in Australia (and New Zealand) will admit that they would like to fly a jet one day, they understand that a turboprop job, a piston job etc is a good start and something not to be sniffed at.
Qantas have even put their cadets into turboprop jobs because they realise that the experience they'll get is useful.

For sure, it will take some rethinking in Australia and New Zealand for new CPLs to go straight to jets as an FO.

Now reading the forums here I and many others just find it incredible that the UK guys feel that if they start on any thing other than a B737 then they haven't been successful. They'll take a turboprop job, if they must. It seems to me that many would rather take on crippling amounts of debt than either shift countries to where work is or take a job on something with propellers.

There's a thread asking about how to raise 60K now that HSBC has pulled out. :ugh: Is this a result of marketing or "I want it all NOW" syndrome?

I know you didn't do a full time course at some "name" school but you turned out all right. :ok: However, I have heard from other folks that there is a percieved snobbery about t/prop flying. If you have flown a turboprop then you're more of a risk than someone straight out of "super" school....

Good training can only take a person so far, a good attitude with a good work ethic is definitely required.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Culture and expectations Luke and Reddo,

A remarkable paucity of those in the UK who rocked up to an FTO after seeing glossy pics of loading a 206 in Maun, the Bungles or Arnhemland.

They missed that class :E

Like I said, alien to outsiders but then again, to us the OZ/NZ threads read like something from 50 years ago because that's how long it is since the UK and Europe kicked off cadetships at places like Hamble.

It is 'normal' for the UK folks to have a massive blind spot regarding other opportunities when those first direct entry effos retired as senior heavy iron skippers while most our wannabees were still in primary education. If you think about it, Europe's first turboprop/jet cadets have been retired for anything up to 20 years now. Given that, why wouldn't you think it's a normal aspiration?

It makes no more sense that the bitchfest going on over PICUS within the OZmates forum. It's simply the way it is and quite possibly partially explains how you both came a wandering this away:ok:

Rob

[redsnail]

Rob,

We are probably in heated agreement and I feel you might be playing devil's advocate. :E After all, I have seen you post that you'd rather have an FO who's got a few thou hours in a turboprop than someone with a raw CPL.

There is room for all methods for training. Whether it be a structured cadet scheme for a specific airline where the airline selects and monitors the training. The cost to the student? Usually, reduced pay for X years but a contract. Or of course, the one I am and many successful airline pilots in the UK are familiar with, the self improver/modular or various permutations in between.

What we're seeing now with CTC is the contract being subtley changed from a definite offer of employment with airline X assuming all checks are satisfactory etc. So now the student is exposed to huge loan repayments after 6 months of "employ". The low houred pilot will have maybe 300 or 500 hours depending. That might be enough to get another job with another operator on the same type. But, what if they can't shift countries or "down size" aircraft because of the loan repayments? By falling for the flying school spin and thinking an expensive course is the only way to get a flying job, they are restricting their own flexibility.

That is just one example.

Easy credit and equity in property in the UK has (to quote yourself) skewed flying training to the "super" schools. So the other forms of aviation in the UK and Europe has fallen below the radar. Often at a much lower cost to the student and the training has a greater depth as there's more exposure to different operations. (thinking piston charter, jet charter, small regional airline ops etc) It is the immersion of the pilot to the industry I feel is often missed at the larger schools (when the student is not a specific cadet to an airline).

The point that I am making (rather clumsily I think) is that there's different paths to a CPL/IR. Some suit the structure of an integrated course, others the modular. There are obviously risks and benefits to both.
In Australia, the cadet v bush pilot has begun. You could substitute instructor for cadet too. The arrogance of both is misplaced. In the UK substitute jet and turboprop, or integrated or self improver.... :hmm:

Airlines etc need a variety of pilot. New ideas from military pilots, charter pilots, other airlines I feel are essential for rigorous safety culture and SOPs along with cadets (and their keen eyes in the manuals). ;)

Survival, whether it be the individual pilot or the company is dependent on flexibility and fast adaptation to a changing environment.

I'll stop now. Al Murray's on tv.