Cathay hit list

[Thrust]

The SCMP today ran an article about a star chamber hit that is now in circulation. The list has the names of nearly 200 pilots from which the famous 49 were chosen.

How can I check my 2001 popularity rating?

[Busbuoy]

There was a copy on the notice board in the mailbox room in despatch last night.

[KRMQQ]

That won't be there for long! Anyone care to post the list?

[Apple Tree Yard]

Guys, the list is irrelevant. All it took to get on the list was a single manager 'nominating' your name...and presto, you were on it. Most of those on the list were people who had the integrity and courage to confront the company and/or individual manager on some issue at one time or another. As far as i'm concerned, being on the list is a badge of honour. (...and no, my name was not on the list...).

[canuck revenger]

..makes me physically sick. Brings back all the bad memories, and makes me realise all over again just how immoral most of our management ARE. I would also point out that a certain A. 'Madaxe' was responsible for many of these names on the list, and enjoyed every moment of his little power play. It is also worth mentioning that other managers fought to have many of these names taken off the list...notably, R. Marin, J. McCormack.

[canuck revenger]

Everyone of those on this list are deserving of support and appreciation. They are particularly deserving of an apology from CX. Cathay made another 184 friends today.

[And Then]

Disgusting.

[WeakForce]

Revealed: the pilots on Cathay hit list
195 jobs at risk in 2001 dispute

Simon Parry
Updated on Oct 08, 2008

A secret "hit list" of nearly 200 pilots whom Cathay Pacific considered
sacking during its bitter 2001 dispute with cockpit crew has been leaked
and circulated among staff.

The list - which came from a member of the panel of Cathay executives
and management pilots who decided which pilots to sack - includes the
49 pilots dismissed during the dispute, along with about 100 pilots still
with the airline.

Cathay Pacific, which said yesterday it believed the list was genuine,
had never acknowledged that it had a shortlist of out-of-favour pilots
ahead of the sackings in July 2001.

The list has now been lodged as additional evidence in the High Court
for a forthcoming action for unfair dismissal by 16 of the sacked pilots
known as the 49ers, which is expected to be heard early next year.

A Cathay spokeswoman confirmed the list was believed to be genuine
but said: "We will continue to robustly defend ourselves in any
forthcoming proceedings as we have done in the past. We stand by all
the evidence we have given in past proceedings."

On the list - originally distributed among the 20-plus members of the
"Star Chamber" who picked the final 49 to be sacked - each pilot is
given a score ranging from two to seven.

The score is based on criteria such as whether they called in sick at
short notice and whether or not they attended a management lunch
meeting after their union advised them not to.

The list was e-mailed yesterday to all 195 pilots on the list by the
breakaway Cathay Pilots Union, which is backing continuing legal action
against the airline by those 49ers who have not settled their cases.
In a circular to members, the union claims that the list proves that
Cathay deliberately targeted Aircrew Officers Association members in
the 2001 sackings.

Cathay executives have claimed in tribunal hearings and interviews that
the 49ers were selected after the employment records of all 1,500
serving pilots were scrutinised during the two-day sitting of the "Star
Chamber".

According to union sources, "Star Chamber" members were under strict
instructions not to take any copies of the "hit list" out of the room at
Cathay City where they held the talks in 2001.

The list contains 184 pilots, with 11 more names added in handwriting at
the bottom under the heading "Crew Control List". All 11 were sacked.
The "Star Chamber" went through the rest of the list one by one, with
members asked to speak out in favour of any pilot whose job should be
saved. If no one did, the pilot's fate was sealed, a union source said.
The list sent out to pilots yesterday includes pencil marks made by the
person who leaked it of "OK" or "X" next to each name.

A letter sent out with copies of the "hit list" appeals to the pilots to give
financial support to the fight of the 49ers, no longer supported by the
Aircrew Officers Association. The Cathay Pilots Union was formed in
response to the association's decision to halt funding for their legal
cases.

"Look at the list. You're on it. It could have been you," says the letter,
which carries the name of the plaintiffs in the action, expected to
proceed next year. "You escaped termination but you could have been
one of those selected to have your career destroyed."

Asked how the release of the list might affect morale, the Cathay
spokeswoman said: "All Cathay employees including pilots are
evaluated on their performance based on merits. If any employee has
concerns about their careers, there are many communication channels."

A Cathay management source, speaking on condition of anonymity,
said: "All of this happened in 2001. It's now 2008. We have been
working with the pilots, including some of the 49ers who have been
hired back, over the years. As far as we're concerned, this is a red
herring."

[canuck revenger]

sometimes life's irony is just too perfect: Just looked at SCMP's website, and next to the headline about the 49ers, there is an advert for a recruiting company with the headline: '..when you lose an employee it costs more than you think'.... (might need to refresh a few times to have it load). Question to CX: what's the cost when you multiply by 49...?

[controlledCHAOS]

I know at least 1 on that list who was shot down twice for his command. Ended up leaving and is now with a prominent mid-east company.

Good on ya mate!

[XFR8]

It has become apparent from this that Crew Control are keeping illegal data files on crew.

It would be advisable for all crew to ask for an appointment to see their Personal files.

Furthermore, all the mentioned crew would be within their rights to take legal action against the management of Cathay Pacific Airways for the illegal storage of data without free access to the employee. The Management have acknowledged that the list is accurate.

It is apparent from the points etc that the final decision was based purely on grudges held by individual managers.

The HKAOA is now duty bound to take legal action on behalf of all its members on this issue.

ATY. Sir this list is entirely relevant. It shows what a immoral lot we work for. It has produced a chance to get some justice from the whole sorry affair.

[Kitsune]

"All Cathay employees including pilots are
evaluated on their performance based on merits. If any employee has concerns about their careers, there are many communication channels."

Except management of course....... what worthless scum! It's difficult not to feel physically sick when you consider what these sh*ts were considering inflicting on so many of their staff, and yet maintaining a smooth face:yuk:

[quadspeed]

I'm beyond words, and truly feel sick to my stomach when reading this. If anyone has it, please post the names of the the star-chamber execution squad of 2001. May they never be forgiven, not by their collegues, not by their peers and not by their own concience.

[Kitsune]

Perjury in UK courts is viewed much more severely than in HK........ :E:E

[Captain Dart]

In addition to venting your feelings about this on PPRUNE, remember there is also the option of assisting the CPU financially.

[PPRuNe Towers]

I've pulled the names as they are not fully public domain.

The potential implications for those on the list but no longer working at CX is the reason.

As you all know there are private sites and other ways that the list will get around but we are not willing to do so here at PPRuNe.

Regards
Rob

[Arfur Dent]

Where's the list gone? It was here 75 minutes ago and now it's not.:mad:
Ah Pprune towers must've posted his reasons for list withdrawal seconds before my question. A bit oversensitive methinks when dealing with such a brutal employer (and on a specific forum). Come on Rob - don't be so squeamish!!

[Numero Crunchero]

I checked my Pfile a few years ago and didn't see anything and yet I made the list - maybe there is an 'unofficial' list despite management's protestations to the contrary!
Anyone on the list would have received an email from CPU - so if you haven't got the email presumably you are not on it.

CX - its just a job!

[F_one]

Maybe management is trying to send another message(sic)....

[Mr. Bloggs]

Could someone PM the names of the “Star Chamber” lads to me?:=

For those on the list that still work for CX, you must have that warm, fuzzy feeling in your stomach that makes you feel loved and wanted, especially if you have an “X” next to your name.:eek:

Don’t feel left out, CX is sending you a message that you will be on the next one.:yuk::yuk:

I can only assume if you had an “OK” you have at least one friend on the Star Chamber?:D

Noticed some on the list are in the training department. What happened? One day you are worthy of termination and the next you are the best pilot out there helping CX with their 2009 checking plan?:mad::yuk::ugh:

Time to donate some CX dinner allowance to the CPU me thinks.:ok:

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

It has become apparent from this that Crew Control are keeping illegal data files on crew


It's going to be VERY interesting to see how the cx legal team respond to the following question from the defense lawyers:

"How does somebody, who barely made it through form 5 (highschool certificate) is suddenly "qualified" to assess individuals on something that affects their careers.."

The guys on that list should all get together and sue the living daylights out of cathay..they deserve ALL the negative publicity and millions in fines/legal fees/compensation because of this despicable act from management..absolutely DISGUSTING and a warning for all "wannabees" to stay FAR FAR away from this circus...:yuk:

[jonathon68]

There may have been a manager who was part of the star chamber, who recently left the company under a "dark cloud". Perhaps, he kept his own records, and they accidentally fell into the wrong hands after he left HKG. That would have to be a bit of a worry for Management.. "what other secret documents are out there!" etc.

The size and general composition of the list has been known for years.

Maybe a few of the guys who recently received a copy of "you are on the hit list" were surprised. However, most were not. Any good member in the period 99-01 was on the list. If your name was missing, then you are part of the reason we failed, because you were not trying hard enough. If you left the union during or after this period then shame on you.

It is rumoured that the list of 49'ers was distributed around various airlines as a warning/request to not hire. Posting the actual and potential victims on a internet public forum years on, only serves to victimise these individuals yet again. You post the victims names in public, but fail to post the names of the "star chamber".

We should focus on issues such as who the star chamber were in 2001 and who remain with "blood on their hands"?

[broadband circuit]

Any good member in the period 99-01 was on the list. If your name was missing, then you are part of the reason we failed, because you were not trying hard enough

Whoa, steady on! I haven't received an email telling me that I was on the list, so I assume (surprisingly) that I was not on it. However, I can look my fellow members in the eye & honestly say that I put in my best effort, in spite of some of the weak as pi55 captains that I flew with during that period.

You've missed the whole point, that there should not have been a "list" or any sackings in the first place. 49 families destroyed by a faceless star-chamber, not to mention demotions, cat B etc etc. The list that should be exposed for public knowledge is the list of star-chamber participants.

[Arfur Dent]

Let's have the list of those Star Chamber members in and around 2001. Someone should know. Initials only may keep the moderators at bay for a while 'cos only those in CX at the time and the members themselves will 'know' (ie the names are not in the public domain -although I can't see why they shouldn't be).
One for sure was AM. Another PW I guess.

[simplex]

This is the link...

The 49ers Story (http://www.cathaypilotsunion.org/generaldocs/StarChamber.htm)

[A. Le Rhone]

And there is something totally immoral about one of these same gentlemen, now involved in the activities that US Anti-collusion authorities fined the company US$65,000,000 for, not only retaining his now very senior position but no doubt receiving a handsome bonus.

Hypocracy and greed in the extreme.

[controlledCHAOS]

Could it have been leaked by the 777 airshow hero who has recently been dismissed?

[controlledCHAOS]

Yeager,

The only thing that will bring on any changes around here is a major accident. Hope it will never happen, but as long as things keep going the way they are, they have no reason to change anything because they believe it is working. The stuff written on ERAS's are some of the most disturbing things known to aviation. If Cathay were to bend some metal in another country and this stuff (ERAS's) are leaked to the outside world. Cathay Pacific as we know it will cease to exist as no one will allow them rights to fly anywhere anymore.

[Fac6]

Could someone be so kind as to PM me the list - Nice to see if I am on it :)

[dean4689]

Likewise. Could someone send me a copy of the list please.
I retired some time ago and I can't imagine that the CPU have my email. I would be interested to know if I featured.

[Cumguzzler]

I would also see if my name is on the list. PM, anyone?

[The Management]

So there is our hit list.

Let this be a warning to each and every pilot, present and future, we do what we want, when we want i.e. pay scales, Direct Entry First Officers, Direct Entry Captains, Benefits, Conditions of Service and of course Terminations.

We regret not having terminated more, as there are still some bad apples within the pilot group. You know who you are.

Not assisting Crew Control with their daily duties i.e. not being contactable on G or O days, not reducing rest, not using commanders discretion to increase a Flight Duty Period, questioning Crew Control about the legality of the duty to name a few, weighs very heavily with our decision to terminate, at present and in the future. Be warned.

There are very few pilots not doing their part to help Crew Control and you know who you are. Pull it together or you will make the next list, which by the way, is being collated as we speak.

We leaked the list as We feel some groups are puffing up their chests in acts of defiance. Be warned, you have no idea what we are capable of and We will do it with a smile.

It would be a shame to be terminated by Our Group and then have your name tarnished all over the world. Difficult to obtain employment when we blacklist pilots, just ask some of the 49ers flying those small airplanes or working for some disorganized airline making peanuts.

The DFO (GMA at the time) is quite proud of the list and the colleagues that helped create it. This is one of the best tactics we have used in our industrial relations with our pilot group and we will not hesitate to use it again. Our philosophy is “If we have to terminate some pilots to keep the rest inline, we will”.

So we lose 50 pilots, we have many pilots coming up to age 55 that would fancy a training position to extend on a base, so retraining is not an issue. It is a small price to pay for a compliant pilot group. There are many younger pilots joining our Exclusive Training Group, which is nice to see.

Keep in mind, if we do terminate you with 3 months notice, where will you go? Not many employment opportunities out there with this current oil and financial crisis.

There will be a watered down version of a 13th month to keep the ground staff happy but the pilots will receive very little. As for us Managers, we will receive our full bonus.

To My Bonus.

The Management

[canuck revenger]

oooohhh...i'm scared.. :ooh:


(and a proud member of 'the list') :=

[The Wraith]

Oooooooooooohhhhh....shaking in my boots.... I'm about ready to quit this dump anyway. This isn't a job, most certainly not a career, it's a prison sentence. Waking up every day and wishing huge parts of your life away is no way to live.
Cathay is one of the most morale crushing, joy destroying places in aviation. If the management (with some notable exceptions) can live with their actions then so be it, they are totally numb to their utter despicability.....and they will be judged eventually. Sad, really, because with little change it really could be the best airline in the world.:(

[Brad Jacobson]

I see I made "the list"... funny I knew at the time that I was on some sort of list. I used to tell my wife that they had me on some kind of list.

Yet here I am posting under my real name and not giving a rats butt about a CX list. So what happened? Due to a power much higher than myself I was able to move on...not just a different job, but I was able to forgive the folks who trapped me in that evil cyclone of insanity. More than that I wish for them that they would learn to "treat others as they would wish to be treated" and thus be able to experience lasting joy rather than the fleeting power rush that they get from crapping on people.

To the folks in management who have goodwill I wish the all the best as well as all the good hardworking pilots who are struggling to have a career.

In this world there is Love and there is Hatred and we decide which one will control us...

Cheers,
Brad

Everything we do is a step along a path.

[CXpletive]

One of the few who chose the path away from Cathay and seems to have enjoyed the health and happiness it brought with it.

Good on you Brad for posting.

[VR-HFX]

Brad

Good for you. Post again as there are a lot of very stressed folk still here who need to see the light.

Anyone who wants the list just pm me. I have pm'd those that requested it.

I understand Mr Begg is sending a bag of fresh sheep ****e from his farm as an Xmas prezzie to the Chamber:ok:

[Liam Gallagher]

"I understand Mr Begg is sending a bag of fresh sheep ****e from his farm as an Xmas prezzie to the Chamber"

Why "fresh"?

[VR-HFX]

More pungent:E...but I take your point...many couldn't tell the difference.

[bogie30]

Hell hath no fury like a chief pilot scorned!!

[VR-HFX]

Doubt it was Wilko...even he knows redemption costs more than that.

Most likely a much smaller cog in the wheel.

[411A]

Gosh, so many names to choose from for the next 49er 'don't come Monday' letter.

Many CX FD folks fail to understand...they have no 'power' vis-a-vis the company, whatsoever.

An ideal position, from the companies viewpoint, clearly.

Sort of like the old saying...'to resist is futile, to accept is devine.':rolleyes:

[YY U R YY I C]

We read with great interest ........ CX vs HX; well no competition ........ but similar complaints.

One airline being taken to the cleaners for a taxiway departure and Singa swines, another for their past.

When are you pilots going to see reality ........ management are a bunch of bastards, no matter which airline.

Thank you to the CX and KA pilots for getting stuck in to the Singa swines who have been ruining HKA. But ......... there is no difference. Management, from where ever they come, are swines.

Hang in there you CX boys and girls .......... you are part of one of the best in this world. But lets as pilots unite and make change, for all pilots here in HK.

Keep your standards and your professionalism; and we will not succumb to the management of what ever airline - CX KA HX UO

Lets get united ........... pilots.

And keep focused

[Jetdriver]

PPRune Towers wrote on the 08th October:


I've pulled the names as they are not fully public domain.

The potential implications for those on the list but no longer working at CX is the reason.

As you all know there are private sites and other ways that the list will get around but we are not willing to do so here at PPRuNe.

Regards
Rob

A reminder of the reason the names are not being allowed on these forums at this time. Last reminder!

[Speedbrake744]

Can I please get a copy of the list thanks...

Speedy

[411A]

He's now rambling about Texas towns....

...which, by the way, where is located quite a nice engine overhaul shop, which produces fine overhauled piston engines.
Turbines, paint and interiors, as well.:D

[Yeager]

HFX,

Kindly send me a copy as well.

Brad J. Good on you my friend. You are so right. All the best.

[VR-HFX]

Yeager has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

[Yeager]

Changed the settings. Give it another shot please. Thx.

[SweepTheLeg]

SCMP

The saga of Cathay's pilot hit list
Years have passed since the sacking of the '49ers', but a leaked document has raised new questions

Simon Parry
Oct 12, 2008
|

Click on to the website of the unofficial Cathay Pilots Union and a digital clock will tell you to the last second how long it has been since the group of pilots known as the 49ers were famously sacked at the peak of an industrial dispute over pay and rosters. It was 2,652 days ago this morning.
Add a few days more to that number and you will be able to figure out how many days ago it was that a panel of Cathay executives and management pilots later to be nicknamed the "Star Chamber" sat down for a secretive meeting in Cathay City to decide which pilots would be fired.


The subject matter was so explosive no one was allowed to take a single piece of paper out of the room. But one management pilot waited until no one was looking and then sneaked away a copy of the list of pilots shortlisted for possible dismissal.

Seven years on, soon after his acrimonious departure from the airline where he had been promoted to the rank of chief pilot and was apparently still troubled by the tumultuous events of July 2001, he leaked it to some of the pilots whose careers with Cathay he helped bring to an abrupt end.

The episode that the document shed light upon happened a long time ago, as the airline has been at pains to point out in recent days. To put it into some sort of perspective, it was two months before the September 11 terror attacks in the US, two years before the outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome and six years before the beginning of the credit crunch.

However, last week, as an e-mail with the words "You're on the hit list" in the subject line popped up in pilots' inboxes, the years melted away as the key act in the bitter 2001 showdown suddenly came back into sharp focus for the pilots caught up in the drama.

The e-mail contained as an attachment the document that the management pilot had taken years ago: a list of the names of 195 pilots from which the 49ers would be chosen along with an intriguing scoring system based on sick days, willingness to attend a management lunch against the union's recommendation, and levels of co-operation over rosters.

Next to each name, written in the pilot's pencil, is an "X" or an "OK" to denote whether each person was selected for dismissal or whether someone within the Star Chamber spoke up for him in an effort to persuade the 20 or so members of the group not to dismiss him.

It may make for fascinating voyeuristic reading within the pilot community, but the "hit-list" is in essence a piece of history. The airline has since patched up its differences with the Aircrew Officers Association and many of the 49ers have accepted settlements. Some are even back working with the airline. In the words of one Cathay executive last week: "As far as we're concerned, this is a red herring."

For two groups of pilots, however, the document has a very contemporary relevance: the 18-strong group of 49ers who preparing to claim unfair dismissal against Cathay Pacific (SEHK: 0293) in a High Court hearing expected to take place next year, and the 100 or so serving Cathay pilots who found out last Tuesday for the first time that they came within an "X" mark of losing their jobs in 2001.

The 49ers believe the list provides evidence to support their claim that Cathay targeted Aircrew Officers Association members in the 2001 cull - the percentage of non-union members on the list of 195 is far smaller than the percentage among the pilot community at large, they argue.

It demonstrates, they say, that the pilots were sacked fundamentally on the basis of their disciplinary records and that they should, therefore, have been subjected to proper disciplinary and grievance procedures. They also claim it shows that senior airline executives may have given misleading answers in interviews and at a London tribunal into how the pilots to be sacked were chosen.

That last claim is denied by the airline, which said in a statement: "We reiterate with great emphasis that we stand by all the evidence we have given in past proceedings and will continue to robustly defend ourselves in any forthcoming proceedings as we have done in the past."

Airline executives have insisted that Cathay Pacific went through the employment records of more than 1,500 serving pilots file by file before deciding who would be fired. A management source said that claim still stood firm, and that the list was produced as a reference point for the "Star Chamber" only after the careful scrutiny of all pilot records.

Cathay has also dismissed suggestions that it tried to keep the list secret, pointing out in a memo to cockpit crew last week that it released a copy of the list to lawyers in a 2004 British hearing into the sacking of the 49ers.

"This version [of the `hit list' circulated last week] would have been disclosed to the plaintiffs as well, had the [pilot] manager declared its existence," said the memo signed by general manager for aircrew, Captain Richard Hall.

A source close to the breakaway Cathay Pilots Union, set up to support the 49ers' court case, said that to his knowledge the full list had never been handed to its lawyers, and the 2004 list contained only the names of the pilots ultimately sacked and not those shortlisted but spared.

It appears to have come as news to the remaining 49ers, too. In a circular sent to supporters, they described the document as a "new piece of evidence" and "extremely significant".

"It is clear from this evidence that some of the criteria supposedly used to select pilots for dismissal were disciplinary in nature and that, therefore, the opposition's claim that the D&GP [discipline and grievance procedures] did not apply are fallacious. In short, they acted in breach of our contract - the first leg of our claim," the circular says.

It goes on to claim the document "provides further evidence that the real motivation for our dismissal was because of our union activities - the second leg of our claim".

The airline appears untroubled by the legal implications of the document having been submitted to the High Court as testimony. "There's nothing in it that hasn't been available to the plaintiffs before apart from this management pilot's pencil marks," a Cathay source said.

Of more pressing concern to the airline is the effect on morale of the list being circulated among current staff. It includes a deputy chief pilot and a number of senior training captains. All but a handful had no idea they were once shortlisted for dismissal - and may now wonder whether their inclusion on the list has since held them back in their careers.

Whether or not the document was new to the plaintiffs, it was certainly new to many of the pilots named. One of the most disturbing aspects, some of them have complained, is that it includes "black marks" from relatively lowly crew control officials for being unco-operative or unhelpful.

"It's appalling to think that decisions on people's futures were made on the basis of criteria as arbitrary as that," a senior Cathay pilot said. "It's even more worrying if those black marks have remained on people's records since that very extreme time when pilots were judged with a scrutiny they would never normally be exposed to."

One first officer who last week discovered he was on the list said in an e-mail forwarded to the Sunday Morning Post (SEHK: 0583, announcements, news) that he was convinced it had been used to deny him promotion more than three years after the sacking of the 49ers.

"I suspected I was on a list for a long time but I saw no evidence until I came up for command a few years later. I was told I was unsuitable for an attempt at the command course and had to stay on as a first officer," he wrote.

"I had an interview with my then fleet manager, who admitted that it wasn't because of my operational skills and told me it was politically motivated ...

"This interview took place more than three years after the sacking of the 49ers. I believe the list hasn't just been used for the sacking of the 49ers but is still in active use years later as a way of punishing crew."

Cathay management sources responded that there were as many examples of pilots being promoted to higher ranks within the list. "There are some very senior people on that list and being on it hasn't held them back in any way," one source said.

The official Cathay Pacific pilots' union, the Aircrew Officers Association, is barred from commenting on the issue of the 49ers after reaching an agreement with Cathay to promote settlements for the sacked pilots.

However, a source close to the union said: "The list proves exactly what we have always known - there was no investigation of all personal files. A list had been drawn up by individuals in management who had a grudge against a certain number of pilots, and from that list 51 pilots were fired [two were later reinstated].

"Cathay Pacific knew or felt they knew that the laws of Hong Kong would let them get away with this, so they did it. It was and remains a disgraceful episode in the history of the airline."

There is a measure of Christian forgiveness for the management of Cathay Pacific in the heart of one pilot who found out by e-mail last week that he had been on the "hit list". Now living in Canada and working for another airline, he wrote on a pilots' online forum: "I used to tell my wife they had me on some kind of list.

"So what happened? Due to a power much higher than myself, I was able to move on and forgive the folks who trapped me in that evil cyclone of insanity. To the folks in management who have goodwill, I wish you all the best - as well as all the good, hard-working pilots who are struggling to have a career."

[And Then]

Every now and then you come across folks in life who went through what Judas Iscariot did........

I hope the former manager finds peace.

[canuck revenger]

Those involved know deep inside their conciences that what they participated in was deeply immoral. To destroy your fellow colleagues, their careers, their families, and in one case indirectly his life....well, one day they will each individually have the opportunity to explain their actions to a much higher power than I. I am glad I won't be one of those souls.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

...one day they will each individually have the opportunity to explain their actions to a much higher power than I...


Before that day however, they WILL have the opportunity to explain themselves in a court of LAW as to:

1) Why they lied under oath;
2) Why proper disciplinary procedures were NOT followed;
3) What personal grieviences they had against individuals;
4) Why low qualified crew control clerks can "assess" highly-skilled pilots..

And after all of this they will THEN have the opportunity to acknowledge that they were wrong in dismissing the 49ers - then compensate them for their lost jobs by paying out MILLIONS in lost revenue,as well as further cash compensations for all the pain,stress and suffering caused.. :ooh:

[michael hammond]

Thought some of you may like the following (think it came from Wikipedia): A kangaroo court or kangaroo trial, sometimes likened to a drumhead court-martial or Drumhead trial, is a sham legal proceeding or court. Kangaroo courts are judicial proceedings that deny due process rights in the name of expediency. Such rights include the right to summon witnesses, the right of cross-examination, the right not to incriminate oneself, the right not to be tried on secret evidence, the right to control one's own defense, the right to exclude evidence that is improperly obtained, irrelevant or inherently inadmissible (e.g. hearsay), the right to exclude judges or jurors on the grounds of partiality or conflict of interest, and the right of appeal. The outcome of a trial by "kangaroo court" is essentially determined in advance, usually for the purpose of providing a conviction, either by going through the motions of manipulated procedure or by allowing no defense at all.

[Arfur Dent]

One has to be more than somewhat staggered to read Richard Hall berating the use of so-called scare tactics by the CPU!
How awful to use scare tactics........
The Star Chamber cowards not only sacked 49 of their own colleagues, they made pretty sure that other employers wouldn't take them on. Nice.
And now we should all forgive and forget.
In wartime the Chamber would all have been shot for treason and cowardice.

[WeakForce]

I am looking forward to reading another "scary":8 Newsletter from CPU.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

3% Of The Pilot Wokforce Was Sacked
25% Of The GC Of The Day Was Sacked
67% Of The Rostering Negotiators Was Sacked
25% Of The GC OF The Day Was On The Hit List But Spared
50% Of The GC Of The Day Was On The Hit List

Fairly Blatant

[Yeager]

How can one not love this "airline" - The worlds most admired. It will forever rest in my heart as the picture perfect example of how NOT to run an airline. The list proves it all in short. :D

[WeakForce]

I want CPU to write some more scary Newsletters.

[nudger]

As a 49er I'd like a copy of the list.

[controlledCHAOS]

As a 49er I'd like a copy of the list.You became one because you stood up to the company and for that, we thank you. As you can see, most of us who are here now do not have the b@lls to do so. People are too afraid they'll end up like you. So we'll just be happy to take our next rounds of COS abuses, contract violation and pay-cuts.

[WeakForce]

Confederate Pilots Alliance (http://confederatepilots.tripod.com/)

[nudger]

Has the mighty HKAOA taken this list to their lawyers and started class action proceedings on behalf of all the still employed but financially punished CATB/C/D'ed members?

[controlledCHAOS]

Can you remember the last time the AOA stood up to the company???

neither can I.

[controlledCHAOS]

The AOA really should be dis-banded and a new "negotiating" body be introduced or take over the representation for the 2000+ pilots in Cathay Pacific.

I prefer to be a part of the more strong willed CPU. The AOA is more of an extension of management, really.

[Fenwicksgirl]

CC, yes please go and pay your subs to CPU, please please go, you will be so much better off and they, the CPU, will also be so much better off with you in their ranks. Think of the infinite wisdom you can provide them on problem solving with Cathay!!
I think it a grand idea, you can also provide assistance during those lengthy negotiations that CPU have with the company on important stuff like your CoS and rostering etc. Great initiative bud, why didnt we all think of it?!!
AoA bashing....boring and unoriginal, get over it and yes, please join the CPU!!

[ALPHA FLOOR]

CC -

Better yet make an appointment with NR and discuss your agression and your issues as you clearly cannot rely on the AOA to do it for you. Thought not - now off you go then bye,bye......... :=

AFL

[Dragon69]

Fenwicksgirl,

Are you union believer?? or do you like wearing the AoA pin for show, like most of the members that abandon the 49ers! Don't knock the CPU, at least it's the only organization willing to do something about the injustice.

[nigel744]

CC

I am convinced that you are a founding member of the CPU and that all sane CX pilots should ignore your incoherent rants - as most did during your time as master and commander of the AOA!

[controlledCHAOS]

CC

I am convinced that you are a founding member of the CPUYou're making it sound like that's something bad?!? But really mate, I'm not worthy of such praise.

So are you happy with the direction the AOA has been sailing these past few years?

DEFO? DEC? C Scale??

All good then??

[No-Wai]

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: They've bled us white, the AOA bastards. They've taken everything we had, and not just from us, from our fathers, and from our fathers' fathers.

LORETTA (aka STAN): And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: Yeah.

LORETTA: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: Yeah. All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have the AOA ever given us in return?!

XERXES: The aquaduct?

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: What?

XERXES: The aquaduct

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.

COMMANDO #3: And the sanitation.

LORETTA: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, CONTROLLEDCHAOS. Remember what the city used to be like?

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the AOA have done.

MATTHIAS: And the roads.

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--

COMMANDO: Irrigation.

XERXES: Medicine.

COMMANDOS: Huh? Heh? Huh...

COMMANDO #2: Education.

COMMANDOS: Ohh...

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.

COMMANDO #1: And the wine.

COMMANDOS: Oh, yes. Yeah...

FRANCIS: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the AOA left. Huh.

COMMANDO: Public baths.

LORETTA: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, CONTROLLEDCHAOS.

FRANCIS: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this.

COMMANDOS: Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the AOA ever done for us?

XERXES: Brought peace.

CONTROLLEDCHAOS: Oh. Peace? Shut up!

:E

[controlledCHAOS]

Must be dry british humour? (notice british purposely spelled with lower-case b).

[FlexibleResponse]

It seems they have gotcha!

[controlledCHAOS]

It seems they have gotcha!

:\:\

Cathay management abusing Cathay employees, that's what it is...wake up and smell the coffee!

[Hiro Nakimura]

Controlled chaos,
I didn't know the AOA introduced B scales, C scales, fired the 49ers, got rid of the FACA, introduced DECs and DEFOs; thanks for pointing that out mate. I always thought it was the company that did all that, silly me!

[controlledCHAOS]

Controlled chaos,
I didn't know the AOA introduced B scales, C scales, fired the 49ers, got rid of the FACA, introduced DECs and DEFOs; thanks for pointing that out mate. I always thought it was the company that did all that, silly me!And you paid the AOA to sit and watch. What else do you expect from your negotiating body other than rolling over and play dead?

Not sick of hearing "yep, looks like they got us this time again boys"...?

[Hiro Nakimura]

So how are your individual negotiations with the company going? I guess you must be on A scales +10%, 30%PF contribution, 42 credit hour monthly limit!

[controlledCHAOS]

So how are your individual negotiations with the company going? I guess you must be on A scales +10%, 30%PF contribution, 42 credit hour monthly limit!

Not any worse than your collective negotiation with the AOA.

[sjj]

Here's a hypothetical.....By the way, it's not a suggestion, so don't bother telling me how stupid i am...just an interesting thought that floated through my head. Like my idea to join this awesome sounding HK based international airline a couple of years back..... (Look where that got me!)

Cx Market cap is around $44,000mill HK (at current depressed stock prices)
2200+ pilots

How much of a company does a particular block of people need to own before they can start dictating terms, like voting for the board etc?

Now there's a way to make the bastards listen!!

[ALPHA FLOOR]

CC -

I for one am tired of your meaningless drivel, no doubt written whilst drunk....

If life is so hard and you are so badly done by - vote with your feet and bugger off then.

AFL

[19weeler]

Alphafloor... I did not know it was a forum rule that nobody is allowed to disagree with you.
Got it now thanks!!! I'm sure it wont happen again.
:D

[leftof]

sjj worth thinking about!:rolleyes:

[Apple Tree Yard]

...gents, suggest you learn about the difference between 'common shares' and 'preferred shares'. :ugh:

[controlledCHAOS]

CC -

I for one am tired of your meaningless drivel, no doubt written whilst drunk....

If life is so hard and you are so badly done by - vote with your feet and bugger off then.

AFL

Who say life was hard?

[M89speedtouch]

In the last few years the AOA has done great harm by legitimising management's contract abuse. Rostering, 49ers and FACA spring to mind.
AOA = rubber stamp.

[Numero Crunchero]

It's not a 'preferred' stock vs 'common' stock issue. The issue is that the CX free float of shares is around 25% of the total shares on issue. The other 75% are held within Swire and mainland chinese interests.

If we (cx employees) bought all the shares available on the market we would have 1/4 of the seats on the board. Not enough to effect change when the other 3/4 is answerable to Swire/Beijing and not the general public!

[Goonybird]

Would someone PM me a copy of the list please.....


Got it thanks..

[controlledCHAOS]

being an AoA basher!Not an AOA basher, but more of an AOA reformer := The AOA should be there for its membership. Not for the goods and benefits of Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd.

Stop paying the AOA if this organization continues to side with management on all issues. I urge people to resign from AOA membership (vote with feet thingie) to show them change is needed.

AOA MUST REFORM NOW!

[koi]

Holy Foccacia, life sounds revolting out there. I am horrified what some people will do for a little money. Ok The meter is running gents, if you dont like it..... or this endless masturbating in public ,perhaps time to vote with your feet and leave. There is always...always a choice. There are plenty of airlines in europe, well run and with a reasonably happy workforce. But please dont just sit there and whine.
Koi

[controlledCHAOS]

Quitting? No, we're not quitters.

Quitting simply means Cathay has won the war. These battles aren't over.

[Wally Gun]

BTTT
Me thinks there should be some serious guilt ridden contributions to the CPU.
So how bout it lads and laddettes

[OEB]

Bring it on.

There's also a Star Chamber hit list.

[Up-into-the-air]

Just a reminder of this long running fued finalised in 2012.

49?s and the Star Chamber | Assistance to the Aviation Industry (http://vocasupport.com/49s-and-the-star-chamber/)

and the following "upgrade" of the former casa ceo, the former cathay pacific chief pilot Boeing.

Truss confirms McCormick for ICAO | Assistance to the Aviation Industry (http://vocasupport.com/truss-confirms-mccormick-for-icao/)